Possible sources of Emergency Fighters for PAF & IAF

[fulcrum]

Possible sources of Emergency Fighters for PAF & IAF

Whenever war clouds would hang over the sub-continent, the PAF more often than the IAF, finds itself some willing donors who gleefully transfer either their standing Airborne assests and even new Planes fresh out of their factories. It happened before and it will happen again.

Some instances where & when this happened are:

1: During the 1971 war PAF got itself Jordanian F-104 starfighters with he blessings of the Yankees.
2: Also it was reported that the french sped up the Mirage-3 delivery when the situation was worsening.
3: China too pitched in with their fast track F-6 delivery when the situation was flaring up.

Then during the 2002 stand-off China made a quick delivery of F-7PG fighters to PAF.

So in case of a war now or in the future, what are the possible, Fighters which can be transferred, and their donors to the PAF, and also to the IAF as well?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

China can provide unlimited supply for JF-17 on loan..

For India, Its India mainly, Other suppliers can be France..

 

[nrj]

Possible sources of Emergency Fighters for IAF: India

 

[fulcrum]

JF-17 is indeed the most likely which will be transferred. Also, if we analyze...

1: None of the transfers took place during the war or while the war was hot. All of it was before the declaration of war. So it is unlikely that we would see deliveries happening during the war to replace the lost PAF assets.

2: All the types of fighters transferred are the ones which were already in the PAF inventory and they only beefed up the numbers. No new fighter types were transferred. This is because adding a new type and the associated training and spares supply would be problamatic. So we won't se any F-15s or F-18s over Pak skies during a war.
Although I remember during 2002 some Pak members in an old forum were full of smiles after one of them reported seeing an F-15!

 

[nrj]

China can supply JF17s faster than IAF shoots down Paki fighters.

It is unlikely that US will supply fighters to Pak in case another Indo-Pak conflict breaks out.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

1: None of the transfers took place during the war or while the war was hot. All of it was before the declaration of war. So it is unlikely that we would see deliveries happening during the war to replace the lost PAF assets.

2: All the types of fighters transferred are the ones which were already in the PAF inventory and they only beefed up the numbers. No new fighter types were transferred. This is because adding a new type and the associated training and spares supply would be problamatic. So we won't se any F-15s or F-18s over Pak skies during a war.Although I remember during 2002 some Pak members in an old forum were full of smiles after one of them reported seeing an F-15!

1. You have to see the present situation of China & Pakistan

2. US is no longer prime supplier But China..



All the military hardware in Pakistan`s arsenal..

 

[sayareakd]

any fighter which the country does not operate wont do much good in war between as the was does not last too long.

 

[Drsomnath999]

China can supply JF17s faster than IAF shoots down Paki fighters.

.

 

[fulcrum]

If the U.S doesn't want a war(due to their stake in Af-Pak region) but India decides to go ahead then it would be a deja-vu situation all over again. So it's not healthy to be optimistic about U.S intentions. Just checked.. Jordanian airforce does have a lot of F-16s in their arsenal now.

One good thing is that the engines are Russian and so there is only so many JF-17s the chinese could build. The chinese have trouble with their all important J-10's engine, so the possibility of WS-13 materializing for the JF-17 is unlikely imo.

 

[Zebra]

May be , Pakistan can get some help from Turkey .
PM- Erdogan , supports Pakistan a lot .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If the U.S doesn't want a war(due to their stake in Af-Pak region) but India decides to go ahead then it would be a deja-vu situation all over again. So it's not healthy to be optimistic about U.S intentions. Just checked.. Jordanian airforce does have a lot of F-16s in their arsenal now.

One good thing is that the engines are Russian and so there is only so many JF-17s the chinese could build. The chinese have trouble with their all important J-10's engine, so the possibility of WS-13 materializing for the JF-17 is unlikely imo.

It can go just reverse, U.S care about its own strategic value, its forces will be out of Astan by 2013 hence no use of Pakisthan anymore.

That is true, but engines are not a issue as plenty can be purchased via Ukraine or it can be done with agreement in china only..


Regarding turkey, What type of F-16 are in storage, besides its need us permission..

 

[fulcrum]

It's a lie peddled by paksitan that the U.S will abandon Afghanistan after 2013. Most likely only the combat troops will be withdrawn. U.S will still be funding the Afghan government and training its army. Even if the U.S somehow manages to forget all about afghanistan(it forgot about it once and paid the price for it. They wont do it again), they know that what India is to China, Pakistan is to India. Pakistan is an useful fool/tool to keep India in check.

Ukraine does not manufacture RD-93 engines! A new agreement with Russia during wartime, and India will keep quiet? Unlikely.

 

[Apollyon]

They can get loads of F-16 (from Jordan and Turkey) and JF-17 from China ... but what about the Pilots .... even Bakis themselves claims that air battles are won by Pilots not the Machines .... will other countries would be willing to donate their pilots too ...

 

[fulcrum]

Yea, how will they get pilots to fly those planes? What did they do during 1971? Anyone has any idea from where did they get the pilots from to fly those F-104s?

 

[Zebra]

^^
As per wiki , there are 240 F-16 Block 30/40/50 in Turkish air force . They are building new 30 F-16s Block 50+ and they will upgrade all old F-16 to Block 50+ standard .

 

[mayfair]

Paki pilots have been flying for their birathers in UAE and Saudi Barbaria for years. Is it far fetched to anticipate a few of their Mirage 2000-9s, F-16 Block 60s, Typhoons and to be inducted F-15Es find their way into the Pakhanaland Air-generating force?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It's a lie peddled by paksitan that the U.S will abandon Afghanistan after 2013. Pakistan is an useful fool/tool to keep India in check.Ukraine does not manufacture RD-93 engines! A new agreement with Russia during wartime, and India will keep quiet? Unlikely.

Statement made by US official are not by some Pakistani, Combat troop withdrawal is the key of ending war, And yes its true regarding the rest..

US do not need to keep check on India via Pakistan, It can be done within India..

Then i see PAF in trouble, Its sad if there are no suppliers and ill developed Military Industry..

 

[Yusuf]

The question is a big slap on India. If India can't finish off Pak with what it has, it does not deserve to win or get any support. We can screw the living day lights out of Pakis with what we have.

Still, if the Chinis poke their noses and the Paki Jihadi machine has been messing the US too much especially with any chance of the nukes getting into whackos hands, then expect B2s direct over Pak without India even asking for it.

India can also bank on Israel but not sure as it is all US assets. At best we can get missiles and ammo from Israel.

 

[ejazr]

1: During the 1971 war PAF got itself Jordanian F-104 starfighters with he blessings of the Yankees.

The F-104s were from Iran. It got F-5s from the US which were actually purchased by Libya but discreetly transited to Jordan and onwards to Pakistan. Although because the war was over in 2 weeks, it wasn't of any benefit.

A declassified document on the rerouting of fighters that were to be sent to Libya is here
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB44.pdf

The link below provides more detailed info on the US tilt and the declassified documents attached with it show the extent of US strategy to help Pakistan "defend against" India including a PR campaign in the international press as well as seizing India bound goods on the high seas

The Tilt: The U.S. and the South Asian Crisis of 1971


In a current scenario, I don't see any other country apart from China supporting Pakistan with weaponry. GCC states don't trust Pakistan any more and will adopt neutrality in any India-Pakistan conflict.

Besides, we are more likely to see more use of tactical missiles by Pakistan IMO. We can quite easily achieve air superiority over Pakistan but its our AMD that will really need to be up an operational to have an upper hand. Any nuke hitting and Indian city will be too big a cost.

 

[fulcrum]

US do not need to keep check on India via Pakistan, It can be done within India..

Controlling from inside can only do so much. Having an outside threat has it's own benefits, or for India's case- headaches. U.S will never abandon a strategic asset like Pakistan. The last thing U.S needs is an unchecked India in the sub-continent.

The F-104s were from Iran. It got F-5s from the US which were actually purchased by Libya but discreetly transited to Jordan and onwards to Pakistan. Although because the war was over in 2 weeks, it wasn't of any benefit.

The F-104 were from Jordon. Infact, your second link confirms it in the various de-classified cables, although it also mentions Iran for F-5, not F-104.

"National Security Council Memorandum for Henry Kissinger, Jordanian Transfer of F-104's to Pakistan, Secret, December 7, 1971, 7 pp. Includes State Department Cable to Jordan, State Department Memo to Kissinger, and United States Embassy (Amman) cable. First page has handwritten Kissinger note in which he, in reference to the title and secrecy of the issue, suggests "that title should have been omitted.""

"United States Embassy (Islamabad) Cable, Top Secret/ Exclusive Eyes Only, December 15, 1971, 1 pp.

The present trickle of Mig-19's and F-104's will not hold off the Indians. Handwriting next to Mig-19's notes "China" and next to F-104's notes "Jordan.""

"The State Department sees the possibility of a ceasefire in the East; Notes that Eleven Jordanian F-104 fighter aircraft have possibly been sent to Pakistan."

"India has ordered a unilateral cease fire upon the unconditional surrender of West Pakistani forces in East Pakistan. Despite the cease-fire, American officials in Dacca report that "no one seems to be in effective control of the situation," and that fighting continues "between Bengalis and scattered "Mujahid/Razakar/West Pakistani elements." Also, in a heavily excised paragraph, the CIA reports that a squadron of American origin, Jordanian F-104's was delivered to Pakistan on 13 December, despite an American embargo on military supplies to both India and Pakistan. This embargo includes third party transfers of American equipment to either of the parties."


Iran:

"Embassy Iran reports that three F-5A Fighter aircraft, reportedly from the United States, had been flown to Pakistan to assist in the war efforts against India. A Northrop official matches the aircraft to a group of planes originally slated for sale to Libya, but which were then diverted to USG control in California. This information suggests that not only did Washington look the other way when Jordan and Iran supplied U.S. planes to Pakistan, but that despite the embargo placed on Pakistan, it directly supplied Pakistan with fighter planes."