Poland To Acquire 1,000 New "Tanks"

Armand2REP

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35 t too heavy? That's why the current Marder with mine-protection kit has a weight above that.. amd the Marder 2, the Puma, the GCV prototypes, the BMPT-64 etc....
Marder combat weight is 28t, Puma is 31t and BMPT-64 is 18t. The Bradley weighs 28t and we all know of its logistics issues in Iraq.

French might like light vehicles like AMX-10, AMX-10P, ERC-90 and VBCI, but other countries see this different.
We like wheeled vehicles because logistics are easy and their life is measured in millions of kilometres, not 30,000km.
 

Scalieback

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Marder combat weight is 28t, Puma is 31t and BMPT-64 is 18t. The Bradley weighs 28t and we all know of its logistics issues in Iraq.
Marder Marder (IFV) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Total weight is now 35,000 kg
Puma Puma (IFV) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
31.5 tonnes, 43 tonnes maximum weight with add-on armor
Bradley M2 Bradley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
cumulative gross weight of the vehicle to 67,282 lb (30.5 tonnes).
 

methos

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BMPT-64 weighs 34.5 tonnes. Marder 1A5 35.5 tonnes, Marder 2 was cancelled at 44 tonnes, Puma weighs 41.5 tonnes in full combat configuration. GCV is projected with a weight above 60 tonnes.

Bradley with BUSK is a further 3 tons heavier.
 
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Armand2REP

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You are talking about uparmour weights when i am talking about base weights. The added weight to the Marder already makes it one of most logistics intensive and expensive IFVs in service. How much is Anders going to weigh in its uparmoured configuration, how many troops will it carry. I hope more than the Marder. :shocked:

BMPT-64 I am talking about is this one...

 

Damian

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Sorry Armand, but as allways You proove that Your knowledge is extremely limited... below 0 actually.



This vehicle is BMPT-K-64.



This one is BMPV-64.



And this is BMPT-64.

Maybe educate Yourself before You start writing nonsense.

And yes, You French might like a lightweight coffins, but a countries with actuall combat experience where there was high number of anti tank weapons, also these hand held and IED's, preffer armor protection, and many other countries without such experience preffer to listen these with experience.

WPB Anders in IFV variant carry 8 troops, in LT/FSV variant it can carry 4 troops, there are photos of both variants interior.



Photo above shows a 4 troops compartment in the reat of Light Tank/Fire Support Vehicle variant.



And this one shows Infantry Fighting Vehicle variant with Hitfist-OWS unmanned turret.

BTW basic weight of M2A2ODS-SA and M2A3 is around 27-30 tons allready, and protection of this vehicle and it's weight are considered by US Army as too low, this is why their next IFV developed under GCV program will have weight of approx 40-50 tons without addon armor.
 

drkrn

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And why not? And this is a journalist mistake. We won't aquire 1,000 tanks, but 1,000 vehicles based on WPB Anders. There are plans to also quire 400 real MBT's in future.

So the planst looks like this:

1,000 WPB Anders, and approx 400 of them in IFV variant to replace old BMP-1's. Rest will be specialized variants like C2 vehicles, LT/FSV vehicles etc.
400 new MBT's, the best solution would be to manufacture our own design. As a stop gap before we design our own tank, 124 Leopard 2A4's in our inventory will be upgraded to Leopard 2PL standard. Later new design should be inducted.

Besides this, on paper Poland allready have approx 900 tanks.

Besides calling Poland small country is... ignorant, did You ever seen a map of Europe? We are one of the bigger countries in Europe.

may be a big country but no big threats right..
 

Akim

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Armand rights in one, nobody he no denying light armored vehicles will not be. It is simple for her to change tasks. Heavy IFV can promote protected and fire power, but due to reduction mobility. Poland will not pass 100% to one only Anders. There will be Rosomah in troops. BMP-1 (2), BMD-1 (2), MTLB, it is possible to promote fire power, due to setting of the new battle modules, to strengthen the protection of mine. Of course, not universal mean, but for those tasks which will put to them - will walk up. France makes support on wheeled armored vehicles , because she is used in Europe and sands of Africa. Resource of the wheeled vehicles certainly something more what track. But she possesses less mobility.
 

Armand2REP

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Sorry Armand, but as allways You proove that Your knowledge is extremely limited... below 0 actually.



This vehicle is BMPT-K-64.]
This is BMPT-K-64

It is exactly what I said it is. You have cotton in your ears or pillowcase over your monitor?

Maybe educate Yourself before You start writing nonsense.
Maybe you should pay attention to what is said before you make a fool of yourself. Methos mentioned BMPT-64 as being heavier than Anders. I pointed out that it isn't even close to its weight.

And yes, You French might like a lightweight coffins, but a countries with actuall combat experience where there was high number of anti tank weapons, also these hand held and IED's, preffer armor protection, and many other countries without such experience preffer to listen these with experience.
And what combat experience does Poland have compared to France? You were in Iraq slugging it out with Iraqi divisions? You are running around Africa fighting Al Queda and overthrowing dictators? You are in Afghanistan fighting Taliban? You are in Lebanon taking IEDs? My friend was in the VAB hit by Syrian mine... he survived thanks to wheeled IFV.

WPB Anders in IFV variant carry 8 troops, in LT/FSV variant it can carry 4 troops, there are photos of both variants interior.
VAB MkII can carry 12 and swim through water. Cost 1/10th what WPB Anders does going millions of km instead of 30k and twice the range. Air transportable by tactical lift and logistics tail a fraction of this light tank. It also sports STANAG 4569 Level IV protection.

BTW basic weight of M2A2ODS-SA and M2A3 is around 27-30 tons allready, and protection of this vehicle and it's weight are considered by US Army as too low, this is why their next IFV developed under GCV program will have weight of approx 40-50 tons without addon armor.
I am not saying the light tank is not a good idea, but basing all chassis on light tank is a mistake for poor military like Poland. Every major power at least has wheeled IFV component if not switching entirely like France. Even Russia has approved the concept and building its future IFV on French wheeled chassis. I have served with Slovaks/Czechs in KFOR and they tell me how little their armour goes on exercise out of fear of wearing it out. They wished they had wheeled vehicles that run close to infinity. Cash strapped militaries would exercise far more as it cost less and no fear of breakage. IIRC Poland is a poor military that needs cheap and reliable units that can be kept running on shoe string budgets. 1000 Anders will bankrupt this military.
 

Akim

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Even Russia has approved the concept and building its future IFV on French wheeled chassis.
The modern Russian military command does very many foolish things now, and suffer ordinary officers and soldiers . The only buying the right think "Mistrals" and the matrix to the imager..
 

Akim

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may be a big country but no big threats right..
Coming from Your logic I ask. At French military budget more than 30 milliards of dollars, 4,5 time more defense budget of Poland and 12! time more military budget of Ukraine. And she nobody threatens her neither westerly nor easterly. Then why keep such a huge army? If him is a military budget is equal to the military budget of Russia?
 

Damian

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This is BMPT-K-64

It is exactly what I said it is. You have cotton in your ears or pillowcase over your monitor?
You said BMPT-64. It is not BMPT-64 but BMPT-K-64, a huge difference. Someone who pretend to be proffesional defence analist should know the correct designation code of each vehicle.

Maybe you should pay attention to what is said before you make a fool of yourself. Methos mentioned BMPT-64 as being heavier than Anders. I pointed out that it isn't even close to its weight.
You was talking about BMPT-K-64 not BMPT-64. Not to mention that weight is not protection level indicator.

BMPT-64 is better protected than currently existing WPB Anders technology demonstrator.

And what combat experience does Poland have compared to France? You were in Iraq slugging it out with Iraqi divisions? You are running around Africa fighting Al Queda and overthrowing dictators? You are in Afghanistan fighting Taliban? You are in Lebanon taking IEDs? My friend was in the VAB hit by Syrian mine... he survived thanks to wheeled IFV.
Our troops suffer more losses, and the very serious ones against big IED's thant French troops. SUrviving an ordinary mine is nothing, try to survive 100+ kg IED. We lost troops to such IED's even in designated mine protected vehicles. But what You can know about this with Your arogant France only focus.

Not to mention that VAB is outdated vehicle.

VAB MkII can carry 12 and swim through water. Cost 1/10th what WPB Anders does going millions of km instead of 30k and twice the range. Air transportable by tactical lift and logistics tail a fraction of this light tank. It also sports STANAG 4569 Level IV protection.
Swimming is seen as useless these days, instead if You wish to have a swimming coffin like BMP-1 or BMP-2. Besides what is this? In Your mind we should abandon our own ideas and purchase this outdated French made junk? No thank You, let the others do what they think is better, and most AFV's developing countries see French approach as inadequate to the threats in current and future battlefield.

Besides this to Your information, besides WPB Anders, our designers work on second future Universal Combat Platform, amphibious and with hybrid engine. So we really not need any "briliant" French ideas.

I am not saying the light tank is not a good idea, but basing all chassis on light tank is a mistake for poor military like Poland.
Maybe start to use brain? How well educated You are? You ended school at age of 5? WPB Anders is not a light tank genius, it is UCP - Universal Combat Platform. On one single platform there can be build multiple vehicles, from LT/FSV, through IFV, APC, C2, MEDEVAC, SPH, SPAAG, MLRS, ARV etc. etc. etc.

Are You even capable to comprehend idea of UCP?

Every major power at least has wheeled IFV component if not switching entirely like France.
We also have such component, KTO Rosomak (Wolverine), Polish version of Patria AMV. Tell me, what actually You know about Polish Armed Forces? Nothing?

Even Russia has approved the concept and building its future IFV on French wheeled chassis.
So in Your silly view on the world, everyone else also should?

I have served with Slovaks/Czechs in KFOR and they tell me how little their armour goes on exercise out of fear of wearing it out.
Hey, maybe look what budget they have, and what vehicles they use... BMP-1 and BMP-2 is hardly modern vehicle... and even more hardly new.

Our Army want to replace all currently used light and medium tracked vehicles with WPB Anders, this means also BMP-1's, MT-LB's etc. This is why WPB Anders is UCP, for production, training, components commonality between all variants and to reduce all possible costs.

They wished they had wheeled vehicles that run close to infinity. Cash strapped militaries would exercise far more as it cost less and no fear of breakage.
We are not they, we have KTO Rosomak, but KTO Rosomak allmost 1,000 of them, still we need tracked vehicle that can replace all other tracked vehicles besides MBT's.

IIRC Poland is a poor military that needs cheap and reliable units that can be kept running on shoe string budgets. 1000 Anders will bankrupt this military.
Our military is not poor compared to our neighbours besides Russia and Germany. And 1,000 WPB Anders is a great deal to support our own industry, we are investing in ourselfs.

What do You think? That we buy French crap when we have much better and modern KTO Rosomak, with multiple variant manufactured and even more during R&D phase?

So maybe a bit simpler.

1) We will have ~1,000 KTO Rosomak as our wheeled universal combat platform, multiple variants,
2) We want to have ~1,000 WPB Anders universal combat platform with multiple variants, majority will be IFV variant (appox 400 is needed to replace BMP-1) and specialized variants, LT/FSV variant might be minority or not even ordered by our military,
3) We will upgrade 128 Leopard 2A4 tanks to Leopard 2PL variant as a stop gap before new design will be avaiable,
4) We will purchase ~400 new Main Battle Tanks, preferebly our own design, not a foreing one manufactured on licence.

Is this is even understandable for You?

Nothing strange that nobody like French people... with their arrogance and ignorance.
 

militarysta

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4) We will purchase ~400 new Main Battle Tanks, preferebly our own design, not a foreing one manufactured on licence.
Sorry but it's not so easy :)

1. It can't be "our own designe" (Polish) becouse polish industry is not able to developed independently eny even slightly complicated military vehicle like Tanks, SPH, APC, IFV etc.
2. It will be licence for some tank - Merkava, Leopard, etc. Becouse there is no other way.
3. Even in so "polish" and "own design" Anders UCP more then 50% components is imported - power pack, Zaslon-APS, main gun, etc
4. In last polish 22 yers history the only successful military programs was base on foreign licenses:
- Rosomak is polonized Patria AMV with Italian Hitfist-30 turret - now after almoust 10 yers 90% of Rosomak is produced in Poland.
- Spike ATGM bought in more thne 280 lunchers and 1500 missails on Israeli licenses.
- Krab 155mm SPH when turret system was cloned AS-90, and now barell and gun system is bougt from NEXTER (ex GIAT)
- canceled Loara SPAAG when 35mm KBA was bougt on Swizterland licenses, the sames electric driver for main arment (2x35mm) in turret, thermal camera swedish radar, etc
Even "polish" PT-91MZ for Malaysia (tank better then Ob.188 - erly T-90 in almoust all aspects) was developed from foregin puzzles placed in old polish T-72M1 license (from Soviet Union) and this contrac was srew up by our industry - nearly four-year delay, and penalties that "eat" any profit from the transaction.

Sorry - we are not able to developed tank independly - it will be licence,and even after that most compoents will be from import.
 

Bhadra

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Sorry but it's not so easy :)

1. It can't be "our own designe" (Polish) becouse polish industry is not able to developed independently eny even slightly complicated military vehicle like Tanks, SPH, APC, IFV etc.
2. It will be licence for some tank - Merkava, Leopard, etc. Becouse there is no other way.
3. Even in so "polish" and "own design" Anders UCP more then 50% components is imported - power pack, Zaslon-APS, main gun, etc
4. In last polish 22 yers history the only successful military programs was base on foreign licenses:
- Rosomak is polonized Patria AMV with Italian Hitfist-30 turret - now after almoust 10 yers 90% of Rosomak is produced in Poland.
- Spike ATGM bought in more thne 280 lunchers and 1500 missails on Israeli licenses.
- Krab 155mm SPH when turret system was cloned AS-90, and now barell and gun system is bougt from NEXTER (ex GIAT)
- canceled Loara SPAAG when 35mm KBA was bougt on Swizterland licenses, the sames electric driver for main arment (2x35mm) in turret, thermal camera swedish radar, etc
Even "polish" PT-91MZ for Malaysia (tank better then Ob.188 - erly T-90 in almoust all aspects) was developed from foregin puzzles placed in old polish T-72M1 license (from Soviet Union) and this contrac was srew up by our industry - nearly four-year delay, and penalties that "eat" any profit from the transaction.

Sorry - we are not able to developed tank independly - it will be licence,and even after that most compoents will be from import.
Why do not polish join India and DRDO in development of tanks, futuristic tanks, AFV and other armour vehicle.
 

ashicjose

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Still Arjun Mk2 will not fit in to our requirements.

First it is still based on 1980's design scheme. Second it does not use a standard NATO gun. Third problem is the problems of this design well known to us, and our designers are well acknowledged with such things. So no, it will not fit our requirements. Still nobody says India can't try to promote their design and try to sell it somehwere. ;)
Please elaborate.....
 

Damian

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Please elaborate.....
It was discussed so many times on this forum... In short, outdated gun, rifled guns are outdated technology, period, sorry. Also side turret armor is not protected by anything else than an RHA plate no thicker than 100mm + storage boxes. Main sight placement weakening turret frontal protection, big gun mantle further weakning frontal protection.

1. It can't be "our own designe" (Polish) becouse polish industry is not able to developed independently eny even slightly complicated military vehicle like Tanks, SPH, APC, IFV etc.
If we further will sit on our asses, and purchase foreing equipment to eternity then we will never be capable to do anything. It's time to stop funding other countries industry and develop our own designs.

You should agree, of course if You are not lobbing for KMW products.

2. It will be licence for some tank - Merkava, Leopard, etc. Becouse there is no other way.
There is allways other way.

3. Even in so "polish" and "own design" Anders UCP more then 50% components is imported - power pack, Zaslon-APS, main gun, etc
And this is actually good idea. Purchase licence for components You can't do Yourself and manufacture them in own country. By using off the shelf components we reduce research & development time and risks.

There is no reason why we should reinvent wheel again.

4. In last polish 22 yers history the only successful military programs was base on foreign licenses:
- Rosomak is polonized Patria AMV with Italian Hitfist-30 turret - now after almoust 10 yers 90% of Rosomak is produced in Poland.
- Spike ATGM bought in more thne 280 lunchers and 1500 missails on Israeli licenses.
- Krab 155mm SPH when turret system was cloned AS-90, and now barell and gun system is bougt from NEXTER (ex GIAT)
- canceled Loara SPAAG when 35mm KBA was bougt on Swizterland licenses, the sames electric driver for main arment (2x35mm) in turret, thermal camera swedish radar, etc
Even "polish" PT-91MZ for Malaysia (tank better then Ob.188 - erly T-90 in almoust all aspects) was developed from foregin puzzles placed in old polish T-72M1 license (from Soviet Union) and this contrac was srew up by our industry - nearly four-year delay, and penalties that "eat" any profit from the transaction.

Sorry - we are not able to developed tank independly - it will be licence,and even after that most compoents will be from import.
Se what I wrote above... and You can further start lobbing to fund German industry than our own... even if we are capable and we should invest in our industry, it is that time when we should.

Why do not polish join India and DRDO in development of tanks, futuristic tanks, AFV and other armour vehicle.
It could be possible, + inviting other countries from our region like Ukraine, Czech Republic etc. They have descent military industry complex that is worth to be invited.
 

Armand2REP

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You said BMPT-64. It is not BMPT-64 but BMPT-K-64, a huge difference. Someone who pretend to be proffesional defence analist should know the correct designation code of each vehicle.

You was talking about BMPT-K-64 not BMPT-64. Not to mention that weight is not protection level indicator.
I was talking about BMPT-64K... what you are talking about is not relevant to my conversation that didn't include you.

BMPT-64 is better protected than currently existing WPB Anders technology demonstrator.
BMPT-64K is better protected than existing IFVs with 82mm RHA and does it below weight penalties.

Our troops suffer more losses, and the very serious ones against big IED's thant French troops. SUrviving an ordinary mine is nothing, try to survive 100+ kg IED. We lost troops to such IED's even in designated mine protected vehicles. But what You can know about this with Your arogant France only focus.
Is Anders going to survive 100kg IED? :rolleyes:

Not to mention that VAB is outdated vehicle.
Continually updated makes it current. Much more current than Polish IFVs.

Swimming is seen as useless these days, instead if You wish to have a swimming coffin like BMP-1 or BMP-2. Besides what is this? In Your mind we should abandon our own ideas and purchase this outdated French made junk? No thank You, let the others do what they think is better, and most AFV's developing countries see French approach as inadequate to the threats in current and future battlefield.
Being able to ford rivers in a matter of minutes is hardly useless. Let your troops sit on the other side while they get pounded by artillery :laugh:

Besides this to Your information, besides WPB Anders, our designers work on second future Universal Combat Platform, amphibious and with hybrid engine. So we really not need any "briliant" French ideas.
I think you need some ideas trying to convert SP Arty chassis into hybrid.



US already tried it for FCS family of vehicles = cancelled. Tried it on GCV and left with too heavy and costly vehicle. What makes Poland think they can solve those problems? Making hybrid wheeled IFV is far easier.

Maybe start to use brain? How well educated You are? You ended school at age of 5? WPB Anders is not a light tank genius, it is UCP - Universal Combat Platform. On one single platform there can be build multiple vehicles, from LT/FSV, through IFV, APC, C2, MEDEVAC, SPH, SPAAG, MLRS, ARV etc. etc. etc.
blah blah personal attacks... shows how weak your argument is. Tracked 120mm gun makes a light tank and is advertised as such. Using 35t chassis as universal is folly. Especially for poor Polish Defence Forces.

Are You even capable to comprehend idea of UCP?
Are you capable to comprehend that expensive 35t tracked chassis is bad idea for UCP? Especially for poor Poland?

We also have such component, KTO Rosomak (Wolverine), Polish version of Patria AMV. Tell me, what actually You know about Polish Armed Forces? Nothing?
Who said it didn't? If you bother reading the comment it says major militaries. Poland does not qualify.

So in Your silly view on the world, everyone else also should?
My view is Poland should stop pretending to afford a military it cannot. With a budget 5X less than France it wants a similar Army. France knows what it can afford with a budget that dwarfs Poland, your guys are living in dreamland if they think than can afford such an Army.

Hey, maybe look what budget they have, and what vehicles they use... BMP-1 and BMP-2 is hardly modern vehicle... and even more hardly new.
Look at your budget and vehicles you use. It was little different and movement to wheeled IFVs is telling.

Our Army want to replace all currently used light and medium tracked vehicles with WPB Anders, this means also BMP-1's, MT-LB's etc. This is why WPB Anders is UCP, for production, training, components commonality between all variants and to reduce all possible costs.
Your Army wants to do many things. What it can afford to build and operate are two different things.

We are not they, we have KTO Rosomak, but KTO Rosomak allmost 1,000 of them, still we need tracked vehicle that can replace all other tracked vehicles besides MBT's.
Why has none of the Iron Curtain states replaced their BMPs yet? Because they can't afford it. They do buy wheeled IFVs.

Our military is not poor compared to our neighbours besides Russia and Germany. And 1,000 WPB Anders is a great deal to support our own industry, we are investing in ourselfs.
Your military is quite poor to be dealing with multi-billion IFV purchase that is several times more expensive to upkeep than wheeled fleet.

What do You think? That we buy French crap when we have much better and modern KTO Rosomak, with multiple variant manufactured and even more during R&D phase?
You buy Finnish AMV and call it some R&D success? Your brilliant scientists haven't fielded anything new not based on Warsaw Pact designs. Only JVs with Western European companies keep them updated enough to be relevant. There is plenty of French crap in Polish defence exports because customers want better upgrades.

So maybe a bit simpler.

1) We will have ~1,000 KTO Rosomak as our wheeled universal combat platform, multiple variants,
2) We want to have ~1,000 WPB Anders universal combat platform with multiple variants, majority will be IFV variant (appox 400 is needed to replace BMP-1) and specialized variants, LT/FSV variant might be minority or not even ordered by our military,
3) We will upgrade 128 Leopard 2A4 tanks to Leopard 2PL variant as a stop gap before new design will be avaiable,
4) We will purchase ~400 new Main Battle Tanks, preferebly our own design, not a foreing one manufactured on licence.

Is this is even understandable for You?
No because you can't afford such toys. You already mention one inconsistency of having two universal combat platforms. I think 800-1000 Rosomak will be the UPC and Poland will be forced to realise wheeled IFV is all it can afford. The local daily Rzeczpospolita report of 1000 Anders is not a government announcement and numbers will be limited to a couple hundred specialised variants. Poland has been disbanding military units faster than any country in the EU.

Nothing strange that nobody like French people... with their arrogance and ignorance.
Knowing the numbers is not ignorance... it is fact. Poland is a poor middle country.
 

methos

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I was talking about BMPT-64K... what you are talking about is not relevant to my conversation that didn't include you.
Sure it is relevant. But I started talking about the BMPT-64 and you wrongly replied by using data for the BMPT-K-64.
 

Armand2REP

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It is clear wheeld IFVs are being acquired far more than tracked. Tech demonstrators do not make ordered machines which is the only relevance to the discussion.
 

Akim

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You argue about a machine which is experienced. Now BMPT- 64 passes military tests and coming from them, her weight can will diminish or will increase. And will remind BMPV (BMPT) -64 created for only for the Ukrainian army. Other countries will be got on the export of BMPV - 72 or BMPV - 55 - it is therefore impossible to talk about weight because expot machines will get the simplified undercarriage.
I will say Armand is right in what, and what it is not in.
- - Yes, swimming armored vehicles is needed. When they are not present, mobility of troops is lost
-- No, Polish defense budget not such little. Simply France have aerocarriers, submarine fleet with a nuclear weapon, universal landings ships. One only aerocarrier "Charles de Gaulle" costs milliard of dollars in a year. And to Poland such the sort of Forces simply not needed. A Gendarmery is plugged in your budget, and in other countries internal troops go a separate line in the budget of country.

Certainly on the whole not to compare MIC of France and Poland, but "Anders"will be bought in not immediately, and in a flow 10-15 years. Poland simply physically will not manage such volume at once. And it is yet necessary to produce "Rosomak".
 
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