PLA Vs Indian Army On LAC discussion thread.

India22

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The closest frontline PLA armored divisions are in Kashgar and Lanzhou in neighboring provinces.

Also, the most prevalent forces in Tibet, including the border troops, are People's Armed Police not the PLA. Yes, they use the older Type 81.
So the soldiers who intrude into Indian territory are not PLA? If you shed some light on PAP's Border Troops strength. We will also give ITBP's strength.
 

Kunal Biswas

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PLA and Indian Army border meeting held in every few months, Not border guards ..

The closest frontline PLA armored divisions are in Kashgar and Lanzhou in neighboring provinces.

Also, the most prevalent forces in Tibet, including the border troops, are People's Armed Police not the PLA. Yes, they use the older Type 81.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Was telling you, Not asking for your opinion ..

Maybe PLA for ceremonial events like the border but even here you can't really tell. PAP units are mostly trained and dressed like the PLA except they have less heavy weapons. But they do have armor and helicopters. PAP and PLA in Tibet are around 100,000 together.

The Indian border is considered a safe, quiet one. Most of the PLA's mechanized divisions (its main fighting unit, though that is turning into brigades) are in the north and east. South and West are mainly guarded by the PAP.
 

Scrutator

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Its still in development and most/all information comes from Shukla ji, so we have to wait a bit to know about barrel life I guess.
On present specs it is still a world class product but nothing to really beat our chests as seems to be the case with everything Indian over here.
The designers would have set some goals for 'service life'. Further, even with around 100 shells fired, they would have examined the corrosion/micro-cracks to come up with an estimate of the life. They normally don't publicly announce this kind of detail; we'll have to wait for some interviews of the scientists/army to get that info.
 

Wisemarko

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Get your basics first before acting know all, A little research would help, The information is shared by Government R&D department DRDO, This is available on open source, Best don`t ask for spoon feedings ..

In case it missed weight details, This 52cal weight only 12tons compare to similar system of 14tons-18ton monsters, Unmatched globally ..

Comparing apple vs oranges is not smart, Comparing 39cal with 52cal gun also quietly comparing sustain fire of ATAGS with Intense fire American gun of a different class, This is obvious ..

Bigger the chamber, More powder bags hence more power and longer range with higher velocity, Its simple math and saffers ( slang for south Africans which is offensive way to describe them ) got it from Gerald bull himself, Our Army is not made of fool who will issue such a requirement for no reason ..

Keep in mind this is not terrorist forum, We have a reputation here and we don`t allow trolls / big mouths ..

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Type-89 is not a 52cal gun but a 45cal gun which is copy of G-5 towed howitzer, Post replies with better knowledge, Know what it have compare to ATAGS and visa versa, China has a good industrial base which we lack but unlike us their R&D is more interested in copying ..

AH4 is a very old system and nothing new, Its rejected by PLA and offered for exports, Its specifications are claimed to be similar to M777 ..

===================

Its a pity that many Indians may know about what America or Russia is doing or their history but remain clueless about their own archivements, Its unfortunate that many chose it due to their inferiority complex which has no treatment ..
It's sad that instead of accepting truth, you are going in tangent about inferiority complex route. In real war, equipment matter not lip service. Going to war with adversary like China without knowing true capacity of its warfighter is plain silly. Can't believe you make such statements!
 

Scrutator

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We have multi-calibre rifles but it seems there is no research to make a multi-calibre tube artillery so that we can reduce calibre and transport and increase calibre and fire at Islamabad or Rawalpindi from Indian borders....
This doesn't seem to make much sense, but I'll humor this a little.
Caliber refers to both the diameter and the length of the barrel - which one do you want to reduce and increase on the fly?
You want the jawans to change a 5 tonne barrel in the field?? Even if IA employed the Avengers as the crew, why exactly would you want to change the caliber?? IA is trying to standardize all it guns to 155mm diameter; and surprise-surprise, a 52 caliber gun can shoot lower range either by angling appropriately or by varying the quantity of the propellant.
Hope this clarifies - before you delve into designing a telescoping gun barrel!!
 

Wisemarko

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DO YOU READ REPLIES BEFORE YOU COMMENT OR DO YOU JUST LOVE TO MAKE FAKE ACCOUNTS AND POST CRAP? ARE YOU ONE OF THESE?

Read what I said. You keep comparing towed arty with SPH and tell me that I am making "tall claims"? Read what I said again, and carefully this time.
Got it? Good. Now read this:-

So Chinese artillery is not up to date either. Unlike me, you are the one that made this tall claim here:-


As far as conventional parity with PLA is concerned, I am well aware that we cannot match PLA gun-for-gun. It is a bigger economy and bigger military. That is not what we are aiming for either. All we need to do is defend our territories well. And as far as this statement of yours goes:-

If you are so confident of defeating us, come at us. And we'll give you a live demonstration of how technological superiority is just one advantage (and one which can be offset). Come at us and we'll show you how an artillery barrage is equally devastating to the moral of the infantry man in its line of fire, irrespective of whether the round fired is from a high spec new gun or from an old one with its paint worn off. The fight will be in the mountains. You will be the attacking party. Try it out and you'll discover what mountain warfare is all about.

Finally, read this:-
Go rant in front of some faltu guy, not here. Technology is the reason Europeans ruled us for 200 years- not because of lack of courage on our part. If China is ahead in weapon tech any war will be paid with
Abbe sad hai to khud khushi kar le. Thread mat derail kar.
And dont talk about war as if you understand it. Equipment is just one of the many considerations in war.
Stop trolling BC. Go play some Chinese version of Call of Duty.
@Mods Ban him. Sala troll hai. November main account banaya aur abhi post kana start kiya isne. Teeno post main trolling kar raha hai BC.
Put him in Tihar jail. And then plz clean this thread.
Itna dar gaya 2-3 post padhke? Jaa be, tera poora post hi bakwas hai. Ja Kam Kar
 

Indx TechStyle

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It's sad that instead of accepting truth, you are going in tangent about inferiority complex route. In real war, equipment matter not lip service. Going to war with adversary like China without knowing true capacity of its warfighter is plain silly. Can't believe you make such statements!
If you really have some knowledge, post it instead of making just plain judgemental posts or get lost.
Off Topic: Cutting off the perception, callind PRC superior in anyway, there are many fields where India has pepped China. One is ATAGS, I have other examples too.
 

Wisemarko

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If you really have some knowledge, post it instead of making just plain judgemental posts or get lost.
Off Topic: Cutting off the perception, callind PRC superior in anyway, there are many fields where India has pepped China. One is ATAGS, I have other examples too.
Off topic?! People on this forum are calling ATAGS superior to ANY Western or Chinese artillery without a single piece in operation! Chinese artillery development is world renowned. PLZ-45 is a design derived from Gerard Bull himself. It's widely exported and even used by Saudi Army (they have access to anything in the world and they chose this system). Their 52 and 54 cal version are available. There are other artillery projects that match or surpass latest in the West that are available with Chinese and offered for export such as AH-4, SH-1, PLZ-05, PLZ-52 and numerous other rocket propelled artillery types. Their range is upto 60km with ERFB-BB and 100km with PGM. They all are produced in large numbers and also have local ammunition production facilities, unlike India that rushed to Israel and South Africa during Kargil War to buy 155mm rounds.
AH-4 is comparable to M-777. Read more here from Janes: http://www.janes.com/article/62341/china-completes-development-of-155-mm-ah4-howitzer
I don't know how calling spade a spade is being off topic? Do you just want to read "feel good" news about India? What good does it do to claim a prototype from OFB/DRDO that are known to be one of the most disappointing defense designers, to be the best in the world? Ego massage?
Yes, if you are uncomfortable with the fact that we lag behind a generation in artillery technology from our eastern neighbor then no one can help you. But be rest assured, not a single defense expert in the world would think otherwise. Not typing that this a fan of Chinese ....
 
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Wisemarko

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So, only argument you'll give of operationalization?
o_O
MiG-21 has fought battles, F-35 hasn't.
Please call it a dud now.
And F-35 is operational means it has real world data- not just a test range data like you claim with ATAGS. Also, stay on topic- answer point to point instead of giving dismissive answers.
 

Wisemarko

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Abey moron comparing ATAGS a towed howitzer with a self propelled howitzer..this shows how mature you are.
And ATAGS had 45 km range and plz-45 had max range of 39 km
Is AH-4 SPH, Lallu? Artillery transportation is dependent on transport available to the enemy- Chinese have doctrine of having all new tracked artillery only. Denel G-5 is mounted on tank chassis and called G-6 - it doesn't take away anything from gun technology. How do you plan to move your 16-ton behemoth on battlefield is a different discussion.
Modern militaries are all having tracked or wheeled artillery for flat land (eg Archer, Caeser, K-2, Fitna) and ULH such as M-777 for mountains.
PLZ-05 with EFRB-BB has range of 53km

Calling me moron makes you look Megamoron
 

Scrutator

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And F-35 is operational means it has real world data- not just a test range data like you claim with ATAGS. Also, stay on topic- answer point to point instead of giving dismissive answers.
I've been doing some comparison on PLZ-45/PLZ-52 with Dhanush/ATAGS; it is obvious that the range of the chinese guns are a tad lower than that of the Indian guns. ATAGS has a very large 'chamber' for propellant (25 liters), PLZ-52 probably does not have this big a chamber, as it's effective range (without any assist) is lower (I could not find the actual chamber size though).
If ATAGS can explode more propellant (and lob the shell farther), then all in all the barrel will need to be that much more stronger to handle the pressure. So, at the least the barrel IS superior to PLZ-52!! The other accoutrements (fire control, velocity detection etc.) may probably be standard - there's not much data to compare with.
When the shell is assisted with BB, RAP etc. the accuracy is severely affected - and it does seem that the chinese guns make up the 'lost' range with some assist (even though the accuracy may be lost).
Also ATAGS sports an all electric drive - more modern than hydraulic drives on the Chinese guns.

And given that artillery guns are not redesigned every other month, there may be some cheer from the Indian side that ATAGS is a tad superior!!! One doesn't have to wait for the complete order to be fulfilled (2027) before using the guns!!!!
 
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charlie

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And F-35 is operational means it has real world data- not just a test range data like you claim with ATAGS. Also, stay on topic- answer point to point instead of giving dismissive answers.
Your post does not make sense!!!!
What kind of data are you talking about ? F35 will have tremendous amount of data. Normally a student who is involved in the project as an intern (it's pretty narrow based, I can't find words to explain) or a min number of full time employee who test simulator only has real kind of data (enormous) and he only shares very little even with the operational squadron and pilots. it's a very systematic producers.

The contractor I work for use to work on CF 18 in Canada, Very less number of employee use to work on simulators and test CF18 and gather data.(don't want to give out numbers)

The contractor I work for has contributed to (different departments of course) F22, F35 well even all the GPS as well as all the Aircraft carrier even Fed system(CIA (old system "9 Alpha" don't want say about new system),FBI,NIA) are designed by them.


We just sold off this division sadly last month, and now we have to vacate the office as the building belongs to them and we use to sub lease it. Some of their bench equipments were better then ours department.


We donated lot of equipment to them that came from this project though it was our department project world largest P25 system

didn't know that time that the division is going to sold off. it got sold off within a month.
 
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Adioz

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Is AH-4 SPH, Lallu? Artillery transportation is dependent on transport available to the enemy- Chinese have doctrine of having all new tracked artillery only.
Which should be telling of the fact that Chinese are not thinking of LAC as their main threat.
Denel G-5 is mounted on tank chassis and called G-6 - it doesn't take away anything from gun technology
Yes, it just adds more weight to the damned gun. So its not going to be used in Himalayas very often.

.
Modern militaries are all having tracked or wheeled artillery for flat land (eg Archer, Caeser, K-2, Fitna)
Then there is no point comparing SPGs with ATAGS right? Or do you mean to say that Himalayas are flat and the PLA mechanised columns can drive over these to give a test to ATAGS?
and ULH such as M-777 for mountains.
M 777 class howitzers which are awaiting induction in both India and PRC.
GOT IT?
NOW STOP DERAILING THIS THREAD!
If you are so intent on comparisons, open a new goddamn thread.
 

Wisemarko

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Is AH-4 SPH, Lallu? Artillery transportation is dependent on transport available to the enemy- Chinese have doctrine of having all new tracked artillery only. Denel G-5 is mounted on tank chassis and called G-6 - it doesn't take away anything from gun technology.
Modern militaries are all having tracked or wheeled artillery for flat land (eg Archer, Caeser, K-2, Fitna) and ULH such as M-777 for mountains.
PLZ-05 with EFRB-BB has range of 53km
I've been doing some comparison on PLZ-45/PLZ-52 with Dhanush/ATAGS; it is obvious that the range of the chinese guns are a tad lower than that of the Indian guns. ATAGS has a very large 'chamber' for propellant (25 liters), PLZ-52 probably does not have this big a chamber, as it's effective range (without any assist) is lower (I could not find the actual chamber size though).
If ATAGS can explode more propellant (and lob the shell farther), then all in all the barrel will need to be that much more stronger to handle the pressure. So, at the least the barrel IS superior to PLZ-52!! The other accouterments (fire control, velocity detection etc.) may probably be standard - there's not much data to compare with.
When the shell is assisted with BB, RAP etc. the accuracy is severely affected - and it does seem that the chinese guns make up the 'lost' range with some assist (even though the accuracy may be lost).
Finally some sane discussion. Thanks.
Larger chamber means more propellant but doesn't always mean more range. For instance, Bofors FH-77 has more propellant but less range than G-5 mainly due to design of the shell and barrel. Also, more propellant means shorter barrel life. All these issues can be realized only once LSP is operating under regular conditions.
 

tharun

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Is AH-4 SPH, Lallu? Artillery transportation is dependent on transport available to the enemy- Chinese have doctrine of having all new tracked artillery only. Denel G-5 is mounted on tank chassis and called G-6 - it doesn't take away anything from gun technology. How do you plan to move your 16-ton behemoth on battlefield is a different discussion.
Modern militaries are all having tracked or wheeled artillery for flat land (eg Archer, Caeser, K-2, Fitna) and ULH such as M-777 for mountains.
PLZ-05 with EFRB-BB has range of 53km

Calling me moron makes you look Megamoron
Read what i quoted first..and second AH-4 max range is 40km even with rocket assisted projectile
http://www.janes.com/article/62341/china-completes-development-of-155-mm-ah4-howitzer
 

Wisemarko

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Which should be telling of the fact that Chinese are not thinking of LAC as their main threat.

Yes, it just adds more weight to the damned gun. So its not going to be used in Himalayas very often.


Then there is no point comparing SPGs with ATAGS right? Or do you mean to say that Himalayas are flat and the PLA mechanised columns can drive over these to give a test to ATAGS?

M 777 class howitzers which are awaiting induction in both India and PRC.
GOT IT?
NOW STOP DERAILING THIS THREAD!
If you are so intent on comparisons, open a new goddamn thread.
ATAGS on mountain?! Lol. How do you plan to put 16 ton peiece of artillery on top of mountain? Please explain. AirDrop from C-17 ? lol.
There's a reason India wants M-777- TO COUNTER CHINESE at LAC. ATAGS can only go as far as Bofors could.
Anyway I am done with you and your silly discussion. Good night
 

Indx TechStyle

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And F-35 is operational means it has real world data-
It's not fully operational yet. We have war data for MiG-21, not for F-35.
Or you can use J-31 if you have problem with F-35. Get the point.
answer point to point instead of giving dismissive answers.
My dismissive or yours?
:crazy:
Only argument you have ATAGS is that it's not operational.
 

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