Philippines to stand ground vs bullying of China

Ray

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It belongs to China

The Scarborough Shoal does belong to China which discovered it and drew it in a map as early as 1279 during the Yuan Dynasty.

http://manilastandardtoday.com/2012/...ongs-to-china/
China map lays claim to Americas

A map due to be unveiled in Beijing and London next week may lend weight to a theory a Chinese admiral discovered America before Christopher Columbus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl...9236/img/1.jpg
How can you say it is bullying?

They have maps.

And the maps shows the whole world!
 

Oblaks

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last month or so philippine just arrest dozen or more vietnam fisherman. vietnam harrass china, philippine etc all the time. vice versa, philippine harrass china too etc. you send warship to harass fisherman, i don't know what you call this in your country, but in US thats harassing, if those fisherman were US citizen, we would already send in navy ship instead civilian ships. That incident with the Vietnamese fishermen and so are the arrests in the past were because they are fishing / poaching in Philippine waters (some 9 miles from Philippine coast) and not in the disputed areas (the Spratlys). The last arrest of chinese fishermen which caused the recent standoff did not happen in the Spratlys. It was in Scarborough shoal, were the Philippines has exercised effecyive occupation in the past. Yes frigates were sent to arrest the fishermen but just the same they are dealt with due process. No shots were fired. Philippines has such a small coastguard/navy, that whichever ship was used would not matter. You assumption to US reaction if such a thing would happen to one of its kind is just your opinion and, I am sorry to say, is not credible.

of course PH won't engage a civilian ship, i don't think philippine are that dumb enough to below some chinese cilivan ship out of the water. if you do that even US can't help philippine. philippine should send in coast guard/civilian/Law enforcement if they want to harass fisherman. and your warship board the chinese fishingship first, how else you can claim there are illegal fishing ship onboard.
That incident with the Vietnamese fishermen and so are the arrests in the past were because they are fishing / poaching in Philippine waters (some 9 miles from Philippine coast) and not in the disputed areas (the Spratlys). The last arrest of chinese fishermen which caused the recent standoff did not happen in the Spratlys. It was in Scarborough shoal, were the Philippines has exercised effecyive occupation in the past. Yes frigates were sent to arrest the fishermen but just the same they are dealt with due process. No shots were fired. Philippines has such a small coastguard/navy, that whichever ship was used would not matter. You assumption to US reaction if such a thing would happen to one of its kind is just your opinion and, I am sorry to say, is not credible.
 

Ray

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Territorial waters


Out to 12 nautical miles (22 kilometres; 14 miles) from the baseline, the coastal state is free to set laws, regulate use, and use any resource. Vessels were given the right of innocent passage through any territorial waters, with strategic straits allowing the passage of military craft as transit passage, in that naval vessels are allowed to maintain postures that would be illegal in territorial waters. "Innocent passage" is defined by the convention as passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner, which is not "prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security" of the coastal state. Fishing, polluting, weapons practice, and spying are not "innocent", and submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag. Nations can also temporarily suspend innocent passage in specific areas of their territorial seas, if doing so is essential for the protection of its security.

That is UNCLOS.

Now, who owns the waters?

China?
 
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amoy

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No matter how dramatically Philippines raises a great hue and cry against China's "bullying", it's all boiled down to basics - Some Basic Facts on China's soverignty over Huangyan Island

The Philippine territory is set by a series of international treaties, no of which involves Huangyan Island. The Treaty of Paris(1898), The Treaty of Washington(1900) and the Treaty with Great Britain (1930) state clearly that west limit of the Philippines territory is 118th degree meridian of longitude east of Greenwich, while the Huangyan Island is obviously outside this limits(15º08'-15º14'N, 117º 44'-117º48'E). The 1935 Constitution of the Republic of the Philippines, the 1946 Treaty of General Relations between the United States of America and the Republic of the Philippines, the 1952 U.S.-Philippines Mutual Defense Treaty, the 1961 Repbulic Act No.3046 and the 1968 Republic Act. No. 5446 have reaffirmed the legal effects of the above-mentioned three treaties and once again expressively defined the Philippine territorial limits, the baseline points and baseline of the territorial waters, which had not included the Huangyan Island. The Philippine maps published in 1981 and 1984, just to name a few, also indicated that Huangyan Island is outside the Philippine territorial limits. The above facts fully prove that Huangyan Island is outside the scope of Philippine territory.

Until 1997, the Philippines has never put dispute on China's juristiction and development on Huangyan Island, while it repeatedly stated that the Huangyan Island was outside the Philippine territory. Then Philippine Ambassador to Germany indicated clearly in his letter to a Gernmany radio amateur on 5 February of 1990 that, Huangyan Island was not within the Philippine territory and sovereignty according to the National Mapping and Resource Information Authority of the Philippines. The documents issued by the National Mapping and Resource Information Authority of the Philippines to the American Radio Relay League on 18 October and 18 November 1994 have also confirmed respectively that the Philippine territorial limits and sovereignty was stipulated in the Paragraph 3 of the Treaty of Paris of 1989 and Huangyan Island was outside of the Philippine territory boundaries.

It is the basic principle of the international maritime law that land rules water. UNCLOS allows coastal states to claim a 200-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ), but coastal states have no rights to harm the inherent territory and sovereignty of other countries. It is a violation of the principles of international laws, including that of UNCLOS, to change the ownership of the territorial sovereignty through UNCLOS.
All of a sudden Filipina woke up claiming shoals beyond 118° E? Sorry, late to the feast!

And even the US can't resort to MBT legitimately beyond 118° E. US neutral in Scarborough standoff but will help upgrade Philippine Navy | Inquirer Global Nation Let's wait and see how it stands ground alone.
 
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Ray

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What does UNCLOS have to say.

It supersedes everything.

If it were mere maps that are dreamt of, the the US is also a part of China!
 

asianobserve

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Scarborough shoal has been a training ground for the Philippine Navy for a long time. In fact a Philippine flag has been flying on the highest point there since the 1960s... Not to mention that it is closest to the Philippines.
 

amoy

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Filipina, cry me a river! Even inside ASEAN so isolated Filipino has become Is the Philippines an Orphan? | The Diplomat

In 2011, ASEAN senior officials began drafting a COC with the intention of presenting a final agreed upon draft to China for discussion. When ASEAN foreign ministers met in Cambodia in January 2012, however, it quickly became apparent that they were divided over three Filipino proposals. The first of these called for an ASEAN-sponsored meeting between China and the claimant states. The other two proposals advocated including provisions in the COC that would distinguish betweendisputed areas and non-disputed areas in the South China Sea and establishing a dispute settlement mechanism.

Internal ASEAN divisions also resurfaced at the 20th ASEAN Summit held in Phnom Penh from April 3 to 4 under the chairmanship of Cambodia. Prior to the summit, Chinese President Hu Jintao made a high-profile visit to Cambodia, where he made clear to Prime Minister Hun Sen that Beijing opposed holding talks on a binding Code of Conduct too quickly.

Whether acting under Chinese inducement or not, Cambodia, as ASEAN chair, reportedly removed formal discussion of the South China Sea from the summit agenda. The Philippines and Vietnam objected and pressed their case at a meeting of ASEAN foreign ministers held the day before the summit and again at the summit itself.

The main area of disagreement at last month's summit, however, was over the timing of China's inclusion in the COC drafting process. At the pre-summit meeting, Indonesia's Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa argued that ASEAN should "listen and"¦hear what China's views are so that we can really develop a position that is cohesive and coherent." Cambodia supported this proposal.
The Philippines and Vietnam also rejected outright a Chinese proposal to set up a ten-member group of experts and eminent statesmen that would help propose solutions. Other ASEAN members, particularly Indonesia, objected to the Philippines' proposal to include a dispute settlement mechanism in the draft COC.

These disagreements were revisited at the ASEAN Summit itself. On the first day, President Benigno Aquino argued that it was "important we maintain ASEAN centrality" and ASEAN should meet with China on the draft COC only after it has been finalized by ASEAN members.

South China Sea issues were then taken up at the informal ASEAN Leaders' retreat held on the last day of the summit. The gist of these discussions were summarized in the Chairman's Statement issued after the summit under the heading South China Sea: "We reaffirmed"¦to move for the eventual realization of a regional code of conduct (COC)" and "stressed the need to intensify efforts to ensure the effective and full implementation of the DOC based on the Guidelines for the implementation of the DOC."

At a post-summit press conference, Indonesia's foreign minister revealed that a compromise on China's participation had been reached. According to Marty Natalegawa: "This is not necessarily a neat sequential process isn't it. Of course, ASEAN"¦ first and foremost, must have a solid consolidated position. But at the same time as we proceed, there will be constant communication through the ASEAN-China framework, so that whatever final position ASEAN comes up with will have benefited from having some kind of communication with China."
Arroyo's remarks, which were echoed by many of his colleagues, reveal the Philippines' misconceived expectations about the role of ASEAN and the United States. Not only is ASEAN divided on the issue, but several of its members are critical of the Philippines handling of its dispute with China. One Malaysian commentator has gone so far as to assert that the Philippines hijacked the ASEAN Summit.

And while the Philippines and the United States are treaty allies, their bilateral Mutual Defense Treaty can only be invoked when "the territorial integrity, political independence or security of either of the Parties is threatened by external armed attack in the Pacific."So far, China has refrained from the use or threat of force and U.S. policy is to not take sides in territorial disputes, although the U.S. today reaffirmed its commitment to mutual defense with the Philippines.
"It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked." - Buffett
 

Ray

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Don't worry.

Try flinging more of your muscle and you will realise who cries a Hwang Ho braking the banks.
 

Ray

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Don't worry.

Try flinging more of your muscle and you will realise who cries a Hwang Ho braking the banks.
 

Oblaks

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No matter how dramatically Philippines raises a great hue and cry against China's "bullying", it's all boiled down to basics - Some Basic Facts on China's soverignty over Huangyan Island



All of a sudden Filipina woke up claiming shoals beyond 118° E? Sorry, late to the feast!



And even the US can't resort to MBT legitimately beyond 118° E. US neutral in Scarborough standoff but will help upgrade Philippine Navy | Inquirer Global Nation Let's wait and see how it stands ground alone.
No treaty has also established that Scarborough shoal is a part of China! Therefore, the deciding factor will be that which is set by UNCLOS! Which China refuses to recognize.
 

Oblaks

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Filipina, cry me a river! Even inside ASEAN so isolated Filipino has become Is the Philippines an Orphan? | The Diplomat





"It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked." - Buffett
I think it is not new to everybody that Cambodia is a pet of China! That I think explains it all. Otherwise, why would China be in the ASEAN summit if cambodia was not the chair.The Philippines has also made it clear that they do not need US to intervene in settling the issue since it is pursuing it diplomatically. Therefore the MDT need not to be invoked. And swimming naked is a refreshing experience. :laugh:
 

Oblaks

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Filipina, cry me a river! Even inside ASEAN so isolated Filipino has become Is the Philippines an Orphan? | The Diplomat






"It's only when the tide goes out that you learn who's been swimming naked." - Buffett
The quote below is also from the same article that you linked with your post:

"The Scarborough Shoal standoff reveals that China's continual assertion of "indisputable sovereignty" in the South China Sea based on historic rights provides little basis for resolving disputes according to international law."
 

amoy

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No treaty has also established that Scarborough shoal is a part of China! Therefore, the deciding factor will be that which is set by UNCLOS! Which China refuses to recognize.
No, that's not terra nullis. Too late for opportunists to "change mind"

In January 1935, Map Verification Committee of China, which consisted of representatives from Ministry of Interior Affairs, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Education, and Navy, declared sovereignty over 132 islands reefs and shoals, Huangyan Island was included as a part of Zhongsha Islands into Chinese territory as the name of Scarborough Shoal. In October 1947, Chinese government announced the new namelist of South China Sea Islands, in which Scarborough Shoal was included and renamed as Democratic Reef as a part of Zhongsha Islands.
Why PRC shall back off from ROC's stance?
 

Oblaks

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No, that's not terra nullis. Too late for opportunists to "change mind"



Why PRC shall back off from ROC's stance?
Terra nullius is not required on the scarborough shoal. It is not the Spartlys. A shoal is a shallow body of water and not an island as the Chinese are reffering to it (Huangyan Island). Therefore it is covered by maritime laws like the UNCLOS.

The 1935 map that you are reffering to are made by Chinese also and not under international treaties. After WW2 (that is after 1935) the Japanese owned these areas. And after their surrender they abandoned it. Again, with all treaties erased, UNCLOS will take over!
 

badguy2000

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Terra nullius is not required on the scarborough shoal. It is not the Spartlys. A shoal is a shallow body of water and not an island as the Chinese are reffering to it (Huangyan Island). Therefore it is covered by maritime laws like the UNCLOS.

The 1935 map that you are reffering to are made by Chinese also and not under international treaties. After WW2 (that is after 1935) the Japanese owned these areas. And after their surrender they abandoned it. Again, with all treaties erased, UNCLOS will take over!
well, Japanese surrendered to CHina after WWII, and China(republic of CHina) took over those islands from Japan(including Spratly islands) and claimed those islands since then........

As for Phillipins,,,they didn't claim scarorough shoal until 1990s....they didn't claim Spratly islands until 1970s....
 
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well, Japanese surrendered to CHina after WWII, and China(republic of CHina) took over those islands from Japan(including Spratly islands) and claimed those islands since then........

As for Phillipins,,,they didn't claim scarorough shoal until 1990s....they didn't claim Spratly islands until 1970s....
China should make the world surrender now.
 

Ray

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Surprising Philippines did not claim Philippines itself!
 

s002wjh

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Territorial waters


Out to 12 nautical miles (22 kilometres; 14 miles) from the baseline, the coastal state is free to set laws, regulate use, and use any resource. Vessels were given the right of innocent passage through any territorial waters, with strategic straits allowing the passage of military craft as transit passage, in that naval vessels are allowed to maintain postures that would be illegal in territorial waters. "Innocent passage" is defined by the convention as passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner, which is not "prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security" of the coastal state. Fishing, polluting, weapons practice, and spying are not "innocent", and submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag. Nations can also temporarily suspend innocent passage in specific areas of their territorial seas, if doing so is essential for the protection of its security.

That is UNCLOS.

Now, who owns the waters?

China?
actaully EEZ doesn't mean its part of countris territorial. good example are hawii, guantanamo bay, alaska, guam, falkland etc etc.
 

Ray

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No one is talking of EEZ.

I am talking about Territorial Water and Contiguous Zone. (12nm and 12nm).

I have also given the explanation of Territorial Water.
 

s002wjh

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china never claim the territorial water of philippine the island they are currently dispute with philippine are in EEZ
 
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