Partition & Reunification

[K Factor]

We don't either, and that's the point. Chaos, mass-migration, economic depletion are just short-term fear, and it did exist in Germany. When we do overcome that, we're on track for the fruition of the reunification, we end up being part of a bigger country, with larger workforce, greater resources, and the advantage of democracy. We can certainly take a shot at dominating this part of the continent, and make the most out of African development.

You can't be serious man. I sincerely hope you are not.

 

[tarunraju]

With 30~40% population, they can easily eliminate all social disparity, and live peacefully.

Tarun, assuming this will solve is wrong.That's all I have to say.Try to understand Pakistani psychi. Pakistan is not what it was 50 years ago. You can't compare Germany with India and Pakistan. They are worlds apart.I don't think it would be appropriate to get into a debate on muslim representation in this thread.Hope you will understand. There are n number of reasons for that.

First, get your perception of the 'Pakistani psychi' right. The Pakistani civil society (normal folk, like you and me), certainly do not carry the 'Pakistani psychi' you're trying to define. They're normal people, with normal problems in life, and normal ambitions and aspirations. We will take this discussion forward when you get that part right.

 

[tarunraju]

You can't be serious man. I sincerely hope you are not.

Very well, I concede from this debate as it's not leading anywhere. Radical ideas always come across as audacious, which is a tragedy.

 

[tharikiran]

There are two fundamental elements that form the crux of the Pakistani society.The Punjabis/sindhis forming the Indic element and the Pashtuns/Baluchis forming the Iranian-Persian element.The difference is not just that they represent different linguistic group,but an entirely different socio-cultural-historical topography.

Baluchis and the Pathans have always been the most conservative group in Pakistani society largely because they existed in a completely different civilizational sphere with very little interaction with the subcontinents dominant Indo-Islamic culture.Punjab and Sindh have always been on this of the cultural divide and until the partition also comprised a large population of Hindus and sikhs,which for centuries negated any non Indic conservatism.

Despite all the LET's,Punjabis and Sindhis are no different from the rest of the Muslim population in India,as far as socio-cultural orientation goes and the substantial society itself is mostly moderate and non conservative

Yes, I agree with this. You have this Punjab and Sindh part of Pakistan which is completely different from the NWFP or the baloch's. The problem Pakistan or the moderate Pakistani is facing, is from these radical Islamists. How are they going to defend themselves is the big question.

It truly is fighting for it's survival in that sense.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

It is Utopian, but perhaps an internet forum is the only place where you can share seemingly-Utopian ideas. For Pakistan, a vision of a 'peaceful, powerful, and progressive Pakistan' in 1947 was Utopian enough. The sh*t did hit the fan in 2009, didn't it? They certainly don't stand to lose anything with reunification. We don't either, and that's the point. Chaos, mass-migration, economic depletion are just short-term fear, and it did exist in Germany. When we do overcome that, we're on track for the fruition of the reunification, we end up being part of a bigger country, with larger workforce, greater resources, and the advantage of democracy. We can certainly take a shot at dominating this part of the continent, and make the most out of African development.

The whole idea behind the creation of Pakistan was a land where the Indian muslims could live away from Hindu rule, this idea was the basis for the partition, many generations have past and this idea has become embedded, how do you firstly remove this thought than worry about all the secondary things?

 

[S.A.T.A]

The partition was the biggest tragedy that ever visited the Indian race and yet at the time nothing could have been more ridiculous than the idea that this ancient land could be carved up to form two countries,not even Jinnah,Nehru or Gandhi thought it would ever come to that,but yet surprised all when it happened.

 

[tharikiran]

We don't either, and that's the point.--by Tarun Raju.

We have a lot to lose. How are you going to protect my country from Islamic radicalists ? care to explain that. How many Indians would want to migrate to Pakistan? I got my basics right about Pakistani psyche.

I agree with you that the civil society has normal ambitions and dreams. But, that same civil society is in danger of existence.The taliban is threatening their way of life. When you don't have that civil society and have unification, all you will have is the gun totting mullah in your "gully." Comparing Germany with INDO-PAK is completely flawed.

 

[S.A.T.A]

SATA are you proposing that Pakistan could be divided between India and Afghanistan/Iran??

I was merely referring to the cultural divide that exists and has always existed.Afghanistan and Iran themselves are riddled with similar socio-cultural dichotomy's.Very few pathans would reject the idea of NWFP joined with southern Afghanistan(both together constituting the traditional Pashtun homeland)

 

[Known_Unknown]

Tarun, why don't you go to a Pakistani forum and find out yourself what Pakistanis think of your idea? Just a suggestion. I'm sure you'll come back with many stories to tell.

 

[tarunraju]

Your entire concept is flawed, and you seem to be confused as to the secular nature of our country.

It does not always take a muslim to represent the muslim people in the populace. If that is so, then we have to divide constituencies on the basis of religion, which is stupid and impractical. If a politician/candidate works for his constituency, it does not matter what his religion is.

Yes, it does take representation from Muslims, to represent Muslims. There are secular representatives no doubt, but under the clout of these 'secular leaders', Muslims aren't making up for much of the political class, which they are as much entitled to as part of this country, as the Majority. I'll explain my argument with an example. There are plenty of minorities in Britain. Although Britain itself is secular and believes in social equality, it does take representatives from these minorities, to assert the minority's rightful claim to power in a democracy. Hence, you have British Members of Parliament of Chinese, Pakistani, and Indian origins. This ensures communal harmony, and adds confidence to the minority's aspirations from the country.

The whole idea behind the creation of Pakistan was a land where the Indian muslims could live away from Hindu rule, this idea was the basis for the partition, many generations have past and this idea has become embedded, how do you firstly remove this thought than worry about all the secondary things?

Here's the answer:

More correctly, the whole idea behind the creation of Pakistan was a land where the Indian Muslim elites could live away from the Hindu majority rule. Until and unless this ruling elite problem is not solved, nothing will change in Pakistan.

Exactly, the only thing that warranted the creation of two major dominions was that there were many power-hungry people, who just couldn't wait for independence, and did everything they could to end up with power. The concept and consequence of partition didn't end up in harmony.

 

[Sabir]

Was the Partition of India was enevitable in 1947?

What we have lost and what we have gained?

And

What we may loss and what we may gain from reunification?

Debate never ends. Give your opinion here....

 

[Pintu]

Kudos Sabir, for opening the much needed thread here, this is really the hot debate of the hour, what I think may there be emotional issue regarding the reunification, but in my opinion it is better to live us differently but in co-existence peacefully, reunification may not be well for us.

Regards

 

[K Factor]

Reunification is against the principal of creation of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan will still feel insecure and will think a million about living under what they think is Hindu rule.
Also, the baggage associated with re-unification such as radical ideology and an economy which is an endless pit, is too heavy to carry.

 

[Arjak]

Agree with komm,now that pak EXISTS as a nation we should respect its soverneighty.......reunification is not at all needed and is impossible after 60 years of bloody indo-pak history...,...and i dont want zaid hamid to share the honour of being my fellow country-man!!!

 

[tarunraju]

Reunification is against the principal of creation of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan will still feel insecure and will think a million about living under what they think is Hindu rule.

Evidently, they're not better off under a 'Muslim rule' either, at least not the present elitist rule. The idea of a democracy is that they can claim their part of the country under democracy. There wasn't going to be a 'Hindu rule' as such. Proportional to their population, they could have claimed their share of the power.

What really seems to have driven partition was pure political opportunism on both sides. There were too many people eying 'absolute power'.

Also, the baggage associated with re-unification such as radical ideology and an economy which is an endless pit, is too heavy to carry.

That is inevitable, though it's not a problem that we can't overcome.

 

[Sabir]

Agree with komm,now that pak EXISTS as a nation we should respect its soverneighty.......reunification is not at all needed and is impossible after 60 years of bloody indo-pak history...,...and i dont want zaid hamid to share the honour of being my fellow country-man!!!

Lol...Supporters of unification will change mind hearing his name...

Or that poor fellow will commit suicide hearing any such possibility.

 

[tarunraju]

Tarun, why don't you go to a Pakistani forum and find out yourself what Pakistanis think of your idea? Just a suggestion. I'm sure you'll come back with many stories to tell.

Because jingoism has overrun rational thinking in Pakistani forums. Where their own people like qsaark are labeled 'traitors', just because they apply rational thought, I can't go with a 'let's build a stronger nation' idea. You got your answer.

 

[Arjak]

Seperate nations-ok,but its weird how some pakistanis are allergic to even the word 'india'......they feel bashing india and hating us would bolster their national-'pakistani' identity.......its weird how some label us a 'hindooo' state and bash us on relgious grounds.......its amazing how they bring religion into every damn thing and judge everything on religion.......i know all are not the same,but i better stay away from a state where majority thinks such.......afterall pakistan is formed by pakistanis.......

 

[tharikiran]

Because jingoism has overrun rational thinking in Pakistani forums. Where their own people like qsaark are labeled 'traitors', just because they apply rational thought, I can't go with a 'let's build a stronger nation' idea. You got your answer.

Those are facts. Jingoism is a fact and you have to accept it. People like Qsaark are a minority. That's a fact there again.You cannot push forward a minority idea. One more fact there.

If everyone acts rationally, there will be no wars and no concept of nation, no military and all will be brothers.

I would rather stick to facts than conjure up ideas just because I am in the cyber world.

 

[qsaark]

Well you might think I am not in my right mind but I do see a possibility, in fact the possibility always existed.

What was the major concern of the Indian Muslims or more correctly the Muslim Elites? They thought that in a Hindu dominated India they would not get their rights. And their fear was not entirely baseless. And you know what was the basis of their fear? Their own deeds, their own ways of ruling the India and their Hindu subjects. Hindus were forced to learn Persian if they were to get a job; They were forced to adopt the Central Asian/Persian culture if they were to prosper and things like that. So Muslims thought that once the Hindus come into power, the Hindus will do the same things to the Muslim what the Muslims have been doing to the Hindus.

Allow me to say that if the 1935 constitution was little more balanced, and the Muslims were assured that their language, their culture, their religion and above all their right of being an equal citizen of the India will no be taken away from them, the Muslims would have not voted in favor of the Muslim League. There were some problems in the constitution of 1935, and there still are some in the present one. Once I got engaged in a debate with Ahmed on the issue of not allowing the Muslim men to wear the cap yet allowing the Sikhs to wear a Turban or not allowing the Muslims to sport a beard but allowing the Sikhs to do so. Similarly, the Urdu as a language is slowly dying in India. Things like these are debatable, and cause of contention. These are the similar issues which in Pakistan are given as the justification of the partition.

In my personal view, if these issues are sufficiently addressed in India, there would remain no legitimacy or justification of the division of the India and her Muslim population.