Pakistan's Terror against the World

Adux

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Blue on Blue is not something I like!
 
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Ray

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The unfortunate part for Pakistan is that Zia unleashed the Mujahideens and forgot to leash them in, once the call of their God was over.

Like a Tiger which tastes human blood turns a man=eater, these Mujh, having tasted the power of the barrel of a gun, lusted for more blood.

They turned towards the world, more so justifying the War on Terror of Bush as a War on Islam. It found a resonant chord amongst the Pakistanis including personnel entrusted to run the Govt and the ISI. Initially, it was a good bargaining chip, but soon it became a Frankenstein and turned on their own mentors!

Therefore, it is an experiment which has turned sour and indeed terrorism is a gift of Pakistan, more particularly of Zia, to the whole world.

Pakistan alone can change the tide.

Notwithstanding, the terrorists do have some strong backers who can bump the Pakistan Govt into obvlivion!
 

JayATL

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everyone shut up before I close this thread... it's mind numbingly boring without me debating in it any longer! :p
 

Daredevil

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^^You being a patriotic american, please put forward your american point of view.
 

Yusuf

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Sannata kyu hai Bhai? Kaha Gaye sub trolls?
 

mayfair

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I stand by it, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir/Baluchistan is a disputed territory and any continuing occupation of it, can be dealt with how we wish to deal with it.

However with that said, my contention with India remains specific to Kashmir and Kashmir only (Hyderabad, Junagadh, Indian muslims, Dalits etc come later).

I'm less interested in speaking for freedom, democracy and secularism within Pakistan than spouting shite against India and that's where you'll see the bulk of my efforts spent on.
There corrected it for you.
 

Elmo

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The unfortunate part for Pakistan is that Zia unleashed the Mujahideens and forgot to leash them in, once the call of their God was over.

Like a Tiger which tastes human blood turns a man=eater, these Mujh, having tasted the power of the barrel of a gun, lusted for more blood.

They turned towards the world, more so justifying the War on Terror of Bush as a War on Islam. It found a resonant chord amongst the Pakistanis including personnel entrusted to run the Govt and the ISI. Initially, it was a good bargaining chip, but soon it became a Frankenstein and turned on their own mentors!

Therefore, it is an experiment which has turned sour and indeed terrorism is a gift of Pakistan, more particularly of Zia, to the whole world.

Pakistan alone can change the tide.

Notwithstanding, the terrorists do have some strong backers who can bump the Pakistan Govt into obvlivion!

Was it Zia alone - not that I have any soft corner for him, but it was the Americans who pumped the money into training those jihadis to fight the Soviets. But that's a chapter that most here choose to ignore.

Not speaking as a Pakistani rather citizen of the world (because according to one bloody rude Indian here, members are not equal), you reap as you sow.

It wasn't only Pakistany's heady general's shortsightedness that the mujahideen became what they are today - it was the US as well. If you insist on pulling down Pakistan, I think you should do the same for the US as well for 'favouring' Pakistan despite all this.
 

Yusuf

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Who said the Americans are not cursed for their shortsighted policy? We still curse them for their short sighted policy in the 80s and it's short sighted policy post 9/11 vis a vis pakistan.

There is a difference between te war in the 80s to the one post 9/11.

In the 80s, a country was invaded by another. There were a few pro invasion and a few against. Those against got support to fight the invaders.

9/11, terror comes from the region and needs to be tackled. 9/11 and the terror preceding it and following it coming out from Pakistan was because of Pakistani policy of maintaining "strategic depth" read as keeping terror factory running.
 

JayATL

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Was it Zia alone - not that I have any soft corner for him, but it was the Americans who pumped the money into training those jihadis to fight the Soviets. But that's a chapter that most here choose to ignore.

Not speaking as a Pakistani rather citizen of the world (because according to one bloody rude Indian here, members are not equal), you reap as you sow.

It wasn't only Pakistany's heady general's shortsightedness that the mujahideen became what they are today - it was the US as well. If you insist on pulling down Pakistan, I think you should do the same for the US as well for 'favouring' Pakistan despite all this.
I'm still waiting for you to answer me Btw -to my reply to your post directed at me few pages up... also your argument that it was US's fault is kinda " taking the lame excuse route". who forced you to do it? US asked India to join in w/ troops at the start of the afghan war post 911- they refused. It was your peeps who saw green and sold their soul out back then in the 80's... it's your peeps who now see a different kind of green and have turned terrorist supporters...
 
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JayATL

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^^You being a patriotic american, please put forward your american point of view.
I gave mine a few pages ago- you not paying attention to by awesome posts hurts my feelings. It should be mandatory for everyone to read every post I make....!!!! here....
 

Awesome

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The unfortunate part for Pakistan is that Zia unleashed the Mujahideens and forgot to leash them in, once the call of their God was over.

Like a Tiger which tastes human blood turns a man=eater, these Mujh, having tasted the power of the barrel of a gun, lusted for more blood.

They turned towards the world, more so justifying the War on Terror of Bush as a War on Islam. It found a resonant chord amongst the Pakistanis including personnel entrusted to run the Govt and the ISI. Initially, it was a good bargaining chip, but soon it became a Frankenstein and turned on their own mentors!

Therefore, it is an experiment which has turned sour and indeed terrorism is a gift of Pakistan, more particularly of Zia, to the whole world.

Pakistan alone can change the tide.

Notwithstanding, the terrorists do have some strong backers who can bump the Pakistan Govt into obvlivion!
Ray all those things are debatable. Initial justifications were an impending Soviet invasion, then strategic depth, then India on the western front, so on. However I've not argued the merits or demerits of these points, simply how unfair and inhumane a depiction of all of the country's people as terrorists in the fabricated ad picture. I mean what are the goals? Will that end anything related to terrorism? I think it will just increase people-to-people hatred of the common man. I was appealing to DFI not to carry on this unacceptable level of India vs Pakistan rivalry where your target is not government or groups but the simple common man.
 

JayATL

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"Strategic depth" - that's another debate altogether. Just one quick question, do you not believe that the US also gains from Pakistan having strategic depth versus India having the same?

I am not shifting the course of this ship to how the US is at fault - I agree Pakistan's policy have been less than flattering for many of its people, but as Muse, one of our members at def.pk, likes to bring up "narrative" aspect of it, the "narrative" here has been tunnelled. Read through the posts here, and besides the jingoism and extreme hatred for a country and it's people, what else is there? I don't even know which post you are referring to when it comes to proscribing blame on the US.

The Indian narrative (look at Tiki's recent post), solely puts the blame on Pakistan.

Lastly, pro-invasion or anti-invasion, giving arms to illiterate youth with little to no skills to survive in life otherwise (be it Afghanistan or Bosnia), that's criminal. The US was not justified in training those groups in the 80s. It's a monster that they actively helped create.
Do you know where that hate comes from? What you fail to respect and understand is that the most peaceful country as a majority and its citizens have been show such disrespect by you Pakistanis ( through 4 wars against it, through thousands dying because of terror funded policies of your govt) - that if anyone has the right to feel hateful towards pakistanis it's indians! and not vice versa...

You guys claim that thousands of your citizenry have died because of the terror and you point fingers at the US for it. So I ask you -How do you guys feel about Americans? Love or hate- go to your forums and it reeks of hate, day in an day out- even against Jews who have NOT battled you so as to speak. Whats freaking hilarious is that you as moderator have always allowed it--- so once again I ask with what " audacity " do you even think of " narrative " preaching here really?
 
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JayATL

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Ray all those things are debatable. Initial justifications were an impending Soviet invasion, then strategic depth, then India on the western front, so on. However I've not argued the merits or demerits of these points, simply how unfair and inhumane a depiction of all of the country's people as terrorists in the fabricated ad picture. I mean what are the goals? Will that end anything related to terrorism? I think it will just increase people-to-people hatred of the common man. I was appealing to DFI not to carry on this unacceptable level of India vs Pakistan rivalry where your target is not government or groups but the simple common man.
Man you still avoid the question and I'm sure Elmo will too. I'm still laughing my ass off that the ones who sit on PDF , you --- who sit and curse at Americans, Jews etc - spread all kinds of conspiracy on those and other bodies - never once stoping to think how their citizenry is being targeted with your and PDF's constant hate speech against them--- Now has you preaching about how not to target Pakistan via a factual Ad? --- is it me or are these guys freaking hilarious in their duplicity!
 
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Ray

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Was it Zia alone - not that I have any soft corner for him, but it was the Americans who pumped the money into training those jihadis to fight the Soviets. But that's a chapter that most here choose to ignore.

Not speaking as a Pakistani rather citizen of the world (because according to one bloody rude Indian here, members are not equal), you reap as you sow.

It wasn't only Pakistany's heady general's shortsightedness that the mujahideen became what they are today - it was the US as well. If you insist on pulling down Pakistan, I think you should do the same for the US as well for 'favouring' Pakistan despite all this.

A good point – whether Zia was responsible for today's terrorism visiting the World and more tragically, visiting Pakistan itself.

From a Pakistani point of view, there is this tragedy of terrorism that visits Pakistan practically daily. It is obvious that it is not doing Pakistan any good. Therefore, it is essential to understand the fountainhead of this menace. There was no über religiosity in Pakistan before Zia. Pakistan was an Islamic State, but religion did not make its mark in governance and nor were the Mullahs particularly ascendant as it is current.

But when Zia took over and overthrew the democratically elected govt (no matter what was its fault), Pakistan became a pariah internationally, and this issue did impinge upon the domestic political health. It became evident that Zia did not want to revert Pakistan to democracy. Therefore, to bring legitimacy and acceptance, he brought in Islam as a force multiplier and in Islamic countries. The very mention of Islam being the guide stifle any discussion, dissension or interpretation, even if Islam is incorrectly used for political gains sans the spirituality it symbolises that is inherent. Zia allowed the Mullahs to slowly become his allies in governance and even incorporated the Huddood Law so as to flaunt his religiosity and champion himself as the Saviour of Islam!

Afghanistan came as a manna from Heaven for him since it was an ideal platform to project himself as the Champion of Islam and the Most ardent Islamic leader in the Islamic world. There could be no better a platform to be acceptable and legitimate and drown the marginal dissent that was there.

The US had their own axe to grind. It became a facilitator to Zia's Islamic pretensions. For the US, there could be no better a proxy than Pakistan to further their strategic aim of cutting the USSR to size and causing them to have their own Vietnam.

Now, if Zia had not laid bare Pakistan to facilitate US designs over Afghanistan, could the US do anything about that?

Thus, Zia played into the hands of the US, for his own personal gains, and in return, bequeathed a most unfortunate and dangerous legacy to Pakistan wherein today Pakistan's innards are being slowly turned by the terrorist knife with utmost pain and horror to common Pakistanis.

Therefore, Zia is the sole villain of the piece for Pakistan's unfortunate and violent present.

As far as the US is concerned, the US has always kept their national interest paramount. Her interventions all over the world are legend and there have always been willing stooges who have sold their country for the US interest. Therefore, I did not amplify the obvious. One has to just read 'The Unholy War' by Cooley to realise the US role, wherein not only Pakistan, but China also was roped in to oust the Soviets from Afghanistan. This is also corroborated by Brig Yousaf of the ISI in his book, 'The Bear Trap'. Therefore, does one have to talk about the US and the extent they go to fulfil their national strategic priorities?

I have no desire to pull down Pakistan. I am merely highlighting that Pakistan's sorry present is Pakistan's own making and it is Zia who initiated and nurtured this descent of Pakistan into unbridled terrorism from which Pakistan seems to have no escape as yet. I don't rejoice at this sorry state, in case that is what you are trying to imply. I share the agony and sorrow of the common Pakistanis. What did they themselves personally do, to deserve this unfortunate and horrid legacy of Zia? The common Pakistani is not to be faulted - they are merely sufferers because of this misguided zealot, Zia and the political dynamics of Pakistan is in no position to bring any succour to them!

I daresay any Pakistan is actually enjoying the danger wherein every time they step out of their homes, they are not too sure that they will return home safe and in one piece! This is more so, in those areas which are perennially being targeted by the terrorists.

Of course, I will concede that there will be the fanatics, for whom such thoughts are blasphemous for, to them, dying for the religion is the best thing one can do. What these pitiable people don't understand is that what goads them to sacrifice themselves at the behest of the Mad Mullahs is not the true Islam and instead is a contrived political Islam solely aimed to misuse the religion for their (the Mullah's) own personal and political aggrandisation!
 
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sadhartha

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From where did you get your education? Local madrasa? No doubt, you are a byproduct of a curriculum of indoctrination/delusional schizophrenia called - 'pakistan studies' and 'islamiyat' which have brainwashed you to the heights of dementia and fake grandeur. I am sure you yourself do not believe in the crap you have just written, and you know this well.

Well the simple fact is that - if India would have been such anti-minority and Hindus such brutes surpassing muslims in brutality then - No minority would have stayed in India and moved to the 'fort of islam' the 'land of the pure' failed state of pakistan in 1947, unlike the case with pakistan. In today's scenario, if Hindus were such a marauding horde as u guys of delusional pakistan, then Indian muslims would have been running to pakistan for refuge not pakistanis dieing to come to India - do I need to tell you about Adnan samis, Lucknow Nawab, Altaf Hussain and many others including lakhs of Hindu refugees et al. Your blabbering only shows the lie you have been told and further you want the world to believe that bigots such as pakistan terrorist/awam are sane and saints for peace. But who is buying this lod of crap except bashful islamic pakistanis?

This is proof of your lack of knowledge starting stupidity when you have no information over educational system of Pakistan. I am talking here over some factual bases but not over any Madras information.

Sophistication in this forum vanished, so don't be so radical. Islamyat & Pak studies are regular subject but these are not used for brainwashing so in this respect there are subject in India too i can mention used for brainwashing.

You can't give us examples of some ill minded idiots Adnan sami or somebody like that, it will not prove you want.
 
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Elmo

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Do you know where that hate comes from? What you fail to respect and understand is that the most peaceful country as a majority and its citizens have been show such disrespect by you Pakistanis ( through 4 wars against it, through thousands dying because of terror funded policies of your govt) - that if anyone has the right to feel hateful towards pakistanis it's indians! and not vice versa...

You guys claim that thousands of your citizenry have died because of the terror and you point fingers at the US for it. So I ask you -How do you guys feel about Americans? Love or hate- go to your forums and it reeks of hate, day in an day out- even against Jews who have NOT battled you so as to speak. Whats freaking hilarious is that you as moderator have always allowed it--- so if once again I ask with what " audacity " do you even think of of " narrative " preaching here really?
Man you still avoid the question and I'm sure Elmo will too. I'm still laughing my ass off that the ones who sit on PDF , you --- who sit and curse at Americans, Jews etc - spread all kinds of conspiracy on those and other bodies - never once stooping to think how their citizenry is being targeted with your and PDF's constant hate speech against them--- Now has you preaching about how not to target Pakistan via a factual Ad? --- is it me or are these guys freaking hilarious in their duplicity!
I gave mine a few pages ago- you not paying attention to by awesome posts hurts my feelings. It should be mandatory for everyone to read every post I make....!!!! here....
I'm still waiting for you to answer me Btw -to my reply to your post directed at me few pages up... also your argument that it was US's fault is kinda " taking the lame excuse route". who forced you to do it? US asked India to join in w/ troops at the start of the afghan war post 911- they refused. It was your peeps who saw green and sold their soul out back then in the 80's... it's your peeps who now see a different kind of green and have turned terrorist supporters...
Uff - I didn't know you had been vying my attention for this long. I do have my hands full on def.pk with moderating duties.

Firstly, the only person/people showing any hate is Indians on this forum. I don't hold entire nations responsible for the act of a few. I also think very lowly of people who do that.

Hate speech on def.pk - seriously? Not to blow our trumpet, those threads get locked, posts receive infraction, and members banned who continue with their low quality posts. Obviously, not everyone goes around crying like you on other fora - they learn their lesson and refrain. DFI is still in its nascent stages, it will learn over time.

We strongly believe in quality versus quantity. Hence, people like Muse, Tiki Tam Tam (Ray), Vinod, S-2, Vcheng and others come there and are always welcomed.
 

Ray

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Man you still avoid the question and I'm sure Elmo will too. I'm still laughing my ass off that the ones who sit on PDF , you --- who sit and curse at Americans, Jews etc - spread all kinds of conspiracy on those and other bodies - never once stoping to think how their citizenry is being targeted with your and PDF's constant hate speech against them--- Now has you preaching about how not to target Pakistan via a factual Ad? --- is it me or are these guys freaking hilarious in their duplicity!
You are known to spread canards and drawing fallacious and contrived conclusion just to present yourself as an Oracle.

If one is expected to abandon the right to think and instead be a parrot spouting a one liner (read view/ policy) for every conceivable issue, then one would be a parrot regurgitating like a cow the one liner taught like Long John Silver's parrot - Yo Ho and a bottle of Rum.

You maybe of the variety of homo sapiens who transform into a parrot with a regimented indoctrinated agenda to sell, but sadly for people of your comprehension and knowledge of life, I have no such baggage or Cross to bear, and instead have the good fortune to be capable of independent and free thinking. Hence, my comments on any forum would be as per the merit of the issue and not prompted by any preconceived agenda to push on the world!

Further, you seem to have a delusion that using of unparliamentary words or being personal indicates some sort of a win win smartness. Please disabuse yourself of this notion. It only indicates your deficiency in vocabulary.

If anyone is a joke around here, I daresay, you win hands down!!

Do inculcate some class and do have a civilised tongue in your head.
 

johnee

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You are known to spread canards and drawing fallacious and contrived conclusion just to present yourself as an Oracle.

If one is expected to abandon the right to think and instead be a parrot spouting a one liner (read view/ policy) for every conceivable issue, then one would be a parrot regurgitating like a cow the one liner taught like Long John Silver's parrot - Yo Ho and a bottle of Rum.

You maybe of the variety of homo sapiens who transform into a parrot with a regimented indoctrinated agenda to sell, but sadly for people of your comprehension and knowledge of life, I have no such baggage or Cross to bear, and instead have the good fortune to be capable of independent and free thinking. Hence, my comments on any forum would be as per the merit of the issue and not prompted by any preconceived agenda to push on the world!

Further, you seem to have a delusion that using of unparliamentary words or being personal indicates some sort of a win win smartness. Please disabuse yourself of this notion. It only indicates your deficiency in vocabulary.

If anyone is a joke around here, I daresay, you win hands down!!

Do inculcate some class and do have a civilised tongue in your head.
Liked it for the sheer class and 'civility' in that retort.
 

Blackwater

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Self loving argument, civilized world (India) which lost its respect from the first day 15th August.
uncivilized pakistan, which lost the respect, gained in 14.Aug,1947. World has lot of expectation from this state when came into 1947. Now 65 yrs later world thinks of you(pak) no better than Somalia,even somalian don't beg.:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad::whistle::whistle:
 

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