Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis

Bhumihar

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The Cheraman Juma Masjid built in 629 AD at Kodungallur in Kerala's Thrissur district. Indias first-ever mosque and the oldest in the sub-continent. This mosque was built while Mohammad was still alive.
It is hard to say how this happened since the core ideology of Islam is against idol worship. What follows after is a history of Invasions.
 

Shankar Deb

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It is hard to say how this happened since the core ideology of Islam is against ideal worship. What follows after is a history of Invasions.
Invasions have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with acquiring wealth. Just as rape has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with power.
 

Bhumihar

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An exchange of views and ideas is to enrich understanding and broaden one's outlook, it has no end point
outlook and idea have a real life implementation there can be no idea or outlook unless a physical need arises
 

Cheran

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Quite right, but also consider that, India's first brush with Islam was very peaceful.

The Cheraman Juma Masjid built in 629 AD at Kodungallur in Kerala's Thrissur district. Indias first-ever mosque and the oldest in the sub-continent. This mosque was built while Mohammad was still alive.

And as far


Now let’s hear it from the late Dr S.N. Sadasivan, historian and author, who served at various institutes of public governance such the Lal Bahadur Shastri National Academy of Administration, Mussoorie and the Indian Institute of Public Administration, New Delhi. In his exhaustive book ‘A Social History of India’, Sadasivan explains:

The king or Perumal who was converted to Islam was in fact Kalaminja of Maldives (Maladwipa or Mahiladwipa), the son of Koimala, a descendant of the king of Ceylon. As early as the 6th century AD, Mali, the capital of Maldives was known to seafarers and the name Mali was mistaken by a number of historians and writers, including the author of the Cochin Gazetteers for Malabar or Kerala. Upon this error, they have come to several conclusions social and historical, which should be considered ostensibly absurd.....
Sadasivan points out Islam was brought to Maldives in 1153 AD by the Arab merchants and proselytisers converted everyone, beginning with the king:

The king, who was Darumavanta Maha Radun (righteous great king) was allowed to continue with the same title and was taken to Mecca by the Arabs who rejoiced at the great triumph of Islam in the small archipelago.....Those who mistake Maldives for Malabar are likely to support the fable that Cheraman Perumal had embraced Islam and was taken in pilgrimage to Mecca. The Arabs enjoyed full privileges in Maldives and the famous (traveller and scholar) Alberuni had taken four wives in muta marriage and lived there like a sultan till he left for China.
It is important to note, says, Sadasivan, there are a hundred significant stories in circulation in Kerala as related to Cheraman Perumal covering not less than a period of a millennium and the time gap between one and another is as wide as 100 to 400 years.

The reason for this multiplicity of Cheramans was the popularity of the name owing to the legendary status of the original Cheraman Perumal. Therefore, says, Sadasivan, in the territories now covering Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Canara, there had been a proliferation of Perumals, mostly petty chieftains. And several of them so fancifully styled themselves as Cheraman that it has become difficult to identify or even locate the legendary Cheraman.

The author writes:

The enormous evidence now available indisputably indicates that the whole Perumal rule in Brahminic Kerala is a mere fabrication to bury deep the elements of Buddhist history....Yet some Muslim scholars, in their efforts to support the painting of a high profile tradition for them, imagine that Prophet Mohammad might have sent a message to Cheraman, inviting him to enter into the Islamic fold. With a view to get their tradition built on a high pedestal or a higher conceptual plane, they are prepared for a quid pro quo: to allow the Christians to convert another Perumal, Pallivana, if the figment of Cheraman embracing their faith is not questioned....Had it not been for William Logan, who made pioneering studies of the antiquity of Kerala, incorporating the fable of Cheraman’s conversion into the Malabar Gazetteer, none would have prepared the settings to give credence or advanced claims to it
Muslim view of the Cheraman tale

In a paper titled ‘Historical Aspects of the Legend of Cheraman Perumal of Kodungallur in Kerala’, Dr Haseena V.A., assistant professor, Post Graduate Department of Economics, M.E.S. Asmabi College, Kodungallur, Kerala, mentions a popular story behind the Cheraman Juma Masjid:

Once a king – a Cheraman Perumal – was walking on the balcony of his palace when he spotted the moon splitting into two and the two halves becoming one again. Bewildered, he consulted his astrologers, who confirmed that such an event had indeed occurred and was not a mystical experience. A few months later, he met some Arab visitors on their way to Ceylon and from them, the king learned that Prophet Muhammad was behind this miracle and that he was the founder of a new religion.
The king did something drastic. He abdicated the throne, divvied up the kingdom and set sail to Mecca to meet this man. He met the Prophet and converted to Islam and lived in Arabia for a while. Then to spread the religion in his homeland, the converted Perumal returned to Kerala, but he died somewhere along the way.Later, some of his followers reach Kodungallur and it is they who set up the first mosques, including the one at Kodungallur.


According to Haseena-

This fascinating tale of a Kerala king meeting the Prophet was first recorded in 1510 CE by the Portuguese writer Duarte Barbosa. Barbosa, who would later become Ferdinand Magellan’s brother-in-law and would join him on his trip around the world, reached Kerala in 1500 with his uncle and stayed there for five decades. Quite conversant in the local language and based on his familiarity with the traditions and customs, he wrote the story of this Cheraman Perumal based on what he had heard.


Here’s Barbosa version:

Around 600 years before Barbosa’s time, there was a mighty lord named Chirimay Perumal, whose capital was a popular port for pepper trade. The Moors who came for trade had numerous discussions with the king and they converted him to Islam. He went to Mecca in their company and died either there or on the way back; the Malabar people never saw their king again. Barbosa also wrote that the single kingdom which Cheraman Perumal ruled was partitioned into three – Cannanore, Calicut and Quilon – with Calicut having the right of coinage.

Haseena picks up a discrepancy: Barbosa mentions that this incident happened 600 years back and not 875 years.

The next version of this story was written eight decades later by Sheikh Zeinuddin, a Malayali Muslim with Arab ancestry:

In his account, a set of Arab Muslims reached Kodungallur on their way to Ceylon. The king invited them to his palace and in what must be one of the easiest conversion attempts in the world, converted after listening to their conversation. He divided the kingdom and secretly went to Arabia with the pilgrims, which agrees with what Barbosa wrote. Zeinuddin also mentioned that this king was ruler of the land from Kasaragod to Kanyakumari and gives an important detail regarding the date. According to him, this incident did not happen during the lifetime of the prophet, but two centuries later.

In 1610 CE, another version of this story came out from another Portuguese writer named Joas de Barros. Barros was an administrator in the House of India and Mina in Lisbon and was responsible for dispatching various fleets to India. His work was completed by Diogo de Coutos.

As per this account, Cheraman Perumal was a great king and his kingdom was frequented by many Moors for commerce-

According to Barros, these Moors were religious fanatics and converted the king to Mohammedanism. He moved to Calicut and the Moors there made him believe that he had to go to Mecca to save his soul, which he promptly did after diving up his kingdom. This was the time when the Portuguese had to resort to sea voyages to avoid Muslim controlled land route and were in competition with the Muslim traders to gain favours with the kings of Kerala for trade rights. Some of that antagonism is visible in the language.


Coutos then adds a twist to the tale which makes this very interesting:

Perumal was close to the St Thomas Christians based in Kodungallur and would not do anything without consulting them. Coutos drops a bombshell by adding that he was converted to their holy faith, implying that the Perumal was converted to Christianity and not Islam. Coutos also mentions that the Perumal died in the house of Apostle St Thomas in Mylapore and thus disagreeing with the Mecca trip. (Since the Pope of the Vatican has himself repudiated the lies spun by Kerala Christians that the Apostle St Thomas set foot in India, we can safely assume this ‘twist’ isn’t true.)

In 1723, the Dutch chaplain Canter Visscher wrote about this story, with another twist. He agrees that Cheraman Perumal was a great king who distributed his kingdom and undertook a voyage. The journey was, “either to the Ganges in fulfilment of a vow or as the Moors say to visit Mahomet in Arabia for the purpose of embracing his religion” implying that there were multiple theories existing at that time.

Haseena adds:

The Cheraman Perumal story continued in the accounts of Dutch Commander Van Adriaan Moens (1781 CE), Francis Buchanan (1801 CE), Keralolpathi (17th or 18th century) and Granthavari (19th century).
 

Cheran

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Invasions have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with acquiring wealth. Just as rape has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with power.
Absolutely.

1601915444731.png


Absolutely
Above temple spontaneously destroyed itself (just one among very many other ones) so that Hindoos in the modera era can blame poor muslims. i am ashamed. :rage:.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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Absolutely.

View attachment 61641

Absolutely
Above temple spontaneously destroyed itself (just one among very many other ones) so that Hindoos in the modera era can blame poor muslims. i am ashamed. :rage:.
Invasions have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with acquiring wealth. Just as rape has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with power.
Either you are an A grade idiot or one of those brainless 'intellectuals'.
Rape has everything to do with sex,only a minute no of rapists among the rapist category will do the act because they want to achieve dominance.
Most do so because they do not have any morals and think that they can get away with it and take the opportunity.

Invasions can have everything to do with ideology and religion. Just like neoconservatives and democracy evangelism in the usa and the west leads to a tendency to invade and destabilize middle eastern authoritarian countries to 'democracies',islamic ways and teachings promote neverending expansion subject to ability and resources and subjugation and elimination of non islamic religious and cultural practices with emphasis given against non abrahamic faiths.
 

ezsasa

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You are absolutely right

Pakistanis first tried to differentiate by saying we are not Indian, then we are from Arab decent, and now they are flirting with Turkic ancestry. In the end they will have to acknowledge their Indian heritage only because they would be the most comfortable with it.

I have been in marketing for a long time, and I know how difficult it is to create differentiation. Suppose you are selling a commodity like Atta. Atta is atta so how to create a difference? yet ITC has created the Aashirvaad brand, and selling this brand at a premium. Similarly India and Pakistan are the same people, just like say the Belgians and the Dutch. Yet they are comfortable in their own identities because they transformed from tribes to a nation from the treaty of Westphalia in the mid 1600s, which is 3 centuries ago.

Pakistan, as an identity is only 74 years old, while the Indian heritage is several thousand years. So give them time.
"O Hindu, This war between believers of Ram and Rahim never stopped in past nor will it stop in future. We will keep fighting Hindus every generation."- Pakistani film Moosa Khan, 2001 by superstar

 

ezsasa

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Apparently Iqbal plagiarised pakistan's national hymn read in schools & national events from a 19th century poet matilda barbara betham edwards

Her Peom:
A Child’s Hymn

God make my life a little light,
within the world to glow,
A little flame that burneth bright,
wherever I may go.

God make my life a little flower
that giveth joy to all,
Content to bloom in native bower,
although the place be small.

God make my life a little song,
that comforteth the sad,
That helpeth others to be strong,
and maketh the singer glad.

God make my life a little staff,
whereon the weak may rest,
That so what health and strength I have,
may serve my neighbours best.

God make my life a little hymn
of tenderness and praise,
Of faith that never waneth dim,
in all his wondrous ways.

Iqbal's poem:
لب پہ آتی ہے دُعا بن کے تمنا میری
زندگی شمع کی صورت ہو خدایا میری
دور دنیا کا مرے دم سے اندھیرا ہو جائے
ہر جگہ میرے چمکنے سے اجالا ہو جائے
ہو مرے دم سے یونہی میرے وطن کی زینت
جس طرح پھول سے ہوتی ہے چمن کی زینت
زندگی ہو مری پروانے کی صورت یا رب
علم کی شمع سے ہو مجھ کو محبت یارب
ہو مرا کام غریبوں کی حمایت کرنا
درمندوں سے صعیفوں سے محبت کرنا
مرے اللہ! بُرائی سے بچانا مجھ کو
نیک جو راہ ہو اس رہ پہ چلانا مجھ کو

Hindi Translation :
लब पे आती है दुआ बनके तमन्ना मेरी
ज़िन्दगी शमअ की सूरत हो ख़ुदाया मेरी

दूर दुनिया का मेरे दम अँधेरा हो जाये
हर जगह मेरे चमकने से उजाला हो जाये

हो मेरे दम से यूँ ही मेरे वतन की ज़ीनत
जिस तरह फूल से होती है चमन की ज़ीनत

ज़िन्दगी हो मेरी परवाने की सूरत या रब
इल्म की शमअ से हो मुझको मोहब्बत या रब

हो मेरा काम ग़रीबों की हिमायत करना
दर्द-मंदों से ज़इफ़ों से मोहब्बत करना

मेरे अल्लाह बुराई से बचाना मुझको
नेक जो राह हो उस राह पे चलाना मुझको.
 

Shankar Deb

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Either you are an A grade idiot or one of those brainless 'intellectuals'.
Rape has everything to do with sex,only a minute no of rapists among the rapist category will do the act because they want to achieve dominance.
Most do so because they do not have any morals and think that they can get away with it and take the opportunity.

Invasions can have everything to do with ideology and religion. Just like neoconservatives and democracy evangelism in the usa and the west leads to a tendency to invade and destabilize middle eastern authoritarian countries to 'democracies',islamic ways and teachings promote neverending expansion subject to ability and resources and subjugation and elimination of non islamic religious and cultural practices with emphasis given against non abrahamic faiths.
'Brainless' and 'Intellectual' is an oxymoron. Moreover we may disagree on many issues, but lets not be disagreeable.

Rape is an instrument to intimidate individuals, families, communities and sometimes even nations in medieval times, how else was the practice of Jauhar born? Rape the Queen and the Princesses and subjugate everybody else. Remember Baghpat in UP, where the Khap Panchayat in 2015 sentenced 2 dalit sisters to be raped and paraded naked in the village, because their brother had eloped with a married woman of another caste?

Rape is always enacted from a position of strength, by either selecting a victim who is less physically and mentally strong or when the perpetrators are numerically at an advantage. Even a servant may rape the lady of the house, but that will happen only when he has weapons with him, so temporarily he is at a powerful position, and that too to avenge some perceived wrong, not just to get his rocks off.

Re Invasion - Can you site any war where the victor has imposed his ideology or religion on the vanquished and then left the conquered territory without pillaging and draining it's wealth?

I agree that Islam and the other Abrahamic faiths are expansionist by nature, but why? it is to gain political power for the aggressors, and consequently wealth and influence. Were it not for this motive, no one would be interested to risk their lives for some abstract cause.
 

rock127

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Major Gaurav Arya Explains How & Why Khadim Husain Rizvi Was Eliminated By Pakistan Army

Lot of things happening in Chinese Pakistan and this Terrorist got eliminated by deep state on the order of China. On Paki forums they are playing down the reason of his death. :lol:

 

here2where

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Mumbai Attack Mastermind Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi Gets 15 Years Jail In Pakistan.

"i will train you to kill, send you to kill and jail you after the kill. " :facepalm:

terror nibba be like -

arey-kaminoo-maar-do-mujhe-khoon-kardo-mera.jpg
 

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