Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis

pankaj nema

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Most of North India returns that complement. Yes they also want to defeat us, so would you, if you had 90,000 of our army captured and more than half the country bifurcated.
So you mean to say that 1971 was Wrong on our Part

1971 was the Reply to 1965

And if we had not done what we did in 1971, then All Punjabi and Pushtoon Muslims would have killed Bengali Muslims And East Pakistan Border would have become like Line Of Control

Punjabis and Pushtoons wanted the Land of East Pakistan for Opening Another Front against India
 

Cheran

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There is a difference between hearsay, opinion and evidence. One evidence that all Pakistanis are not radicalized is that the radical parties barely get 5 % of the votes during elections.
There is per se no need for the rest of them to get radicalized. The state itself is radicalized, a theocratic Islamist state with a religion & death penalty for blasphemy, in addition to genocides against non Muslims.
 

Shankar Deb

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No the base line must be aligned to complete non interference in others affairs and no expansionist aims of any kind,either through conversions or prolystization for a muslim to be considered non radical.

The ones engaged in relatively normal behaviour are just support personal and willrise up along with the radicals against you where it matters in time and at the very least not help you get displaced or get harmed in any way.

My standard for non radicalization is if a society will chiefly support an outgroup religious person if he blasphemes aginst Islam.

In Pakistan ,muslims minorities like Shias get persecuted for their differences and so there is no need to talk about other minorities which are almost finished anyways.

Anyways I am not against pakis being radical as I don't think they will ever be better and that is something I can bet on and we bharatians should deal with if you know what I mean.They can be radical,it is just that all other civilizations and religious types including atheists should be just as in group biased and radical as they are to counter.let them concentrate in their islamic shitholes.

In case of Muslim minorities in non muslim countries,they must be subject complete and forced integration into culture and country to remove all avenues of rebellion.do just like France is doing now and ideally be like china.
Point by point comment-

Alll diplomacy is geared to become the Big Fish or be aligned with the Big Fish. So homilies wont do, become the Big Fish if you want safety.

This is the problem with Conservationism, and the Us vs Them philosophy, you need someone to hate. 1st they went after the Ahmedias, then the Hindus and Christians, and now having eliminated all the rest they are after the Shias. Hate has a way of cannibalizing the body, and it never ends well.

Forced assimilation, has it worked anywhere? Even in France? or China? Temporarily perhaps, but these societies are time bombs for the authorities.
 

FalconZero

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Most of North India returns that complement. Yes they also want to defeat us, so would you, if you had 90,000 of our army captured and more than half the country bifurcated.
What is this randapa go do it somewhere else, they lost 90k because those inbreds started harassing and targeting Hindus, imposing a foreign culture on people who took pride in their native culture, started carrying out genocide, rape, etc. etc. , also, here you are ignoring the fact that paki army has successfully brainwashed them into thinking that they won 4 wars despite being divided and that India is their sole enemy, there are videos of their school kids in regular conversation talking about killing Indians you will hardly see such acts among Indian students, even you are case of muh everyone is same which is entirely retarded statement.
About 5% lol, are you f**king dense? Do you think that data is correct? You believe that paki army which never leaves a chance to spread propaganda warfare, will let go of that opportunity, imrand was backed by paki army, the election was rigged so please stfu.
Pakistanis no matter how nice they pretendto be but their anti-India, anti non-Muslim characteristic is common, it's not limited to pakis, it's now reaching Bangladesh too. Don't do projection of your Indian self on pakis that will be your worst mistake.
You wanted qualitative data about radicalisation here you go :
> Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law.

Sharia law is openly anti-non-muslim, so there goes your story about radicalisation.
It justifies the attack, murder, enslavement of kaffirs, how's this not radicalisation? Please show your moral standi somewhere else, you are a right winger for a namesake who doesn't even know about his enemies, enemeis of the nations, if these are not enough then go through the state of minorities in pakis and read our own history books which are not written from lefticles.
It's totally pukeworthy that someone like you is preaching what is morality and whitewashing pakis, f**k off is the most respectful way I will say to you to stop doing that.

 

FalconZero

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few more points from this article :
  • The military government of Zia explicitly favored Deobandi madrassas which were promoting more scripturalist interpretation of Islam that could justify jihad. In line with this multifaceted strategy of Pakistan, Barelvis, the majority of the country's population, control only 25% of madrassas, while Deobandis, who make up approximately 15% of the population, disproportionately run 60% of the country's madrassas (Coulson, 2004). Furthermore, the ISI agency of Pakistan sought to push aside some educational institutions belonging to moderate political groups and backed more extreme ones affiliated to Islamist proxy forces such as Hizbul Mujahideen, JeM, Harakat-ul-Mujahideen and LeT, which were willing to engage in a conflict against Pakistan’s old foe India.
  • Mohammed Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization agenda, which was a well-calculated political logic to legitimize jihad, had changed the climate in favour of those madrassas and led to a significant increase in the total number of religious schools belonging to radicalized groups (Bano, 2007; Puri, 2010)....In his perspective, the foreign financial benefits of reforming madrassas was negligible compared to the long-term gains wrought by supporting madrassas. For the first time in early 1990’s, Mujahideen introduced military training into the madrassa curriculum in Peshawar, Pakistan, in order to provide a new generation of holly warriors (Johnston et al., 2008). In the eyes of Pakistani politicians and policymakers, what was perceived as the Mujahideen’s triumph over the Soviets in Afghanistan, could be also replicated in Indian Administered J&K.
  • Every Pakistani general, liberal or religious, believed in the jihadists by 1999, not from personal Islamic conviction(about this part author is chutiya, all this is religiously motivated + hate for India, both are part of it), in most cases, but because the jihadists had proved themselves over many years as the one force able to frighten, flummox and bog down the Hindu-dominated Indian army. About a dozen Indian divisions had been tied up in Kashmir during the late 1990s to suppress a few thousand well-trained paradise-seeking Islamist guerrillas. What more could Pakistan ask? The Jihadist guerrillas were a more practical day-to-day strategic defence against Indian hegemony than even a nuclear bomb.” (Coll, 2005).
Source: https://www.efsas.org/publications/...ion-dynamics-and-terrorism-in-indian-j-and-k/
You are ignorant if you think that jihadi imrand is different from other jihadi, they are of the different side of the same coin, every politician in Pakistan will back terrorists in Kashmir, ISI + Army has cultivated this agenda nd these people are living into it. One side they will say terrorism is wrong but Jihad is holy word, they support Jihad.
Don't get emotional over your enemy because it's the quality that your enemy doesn't share, they will strike your head for what you are, an Indian Kaffir.
@Shankar Deb
 

Rassil Krishnan

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Point by point comment-

Alll diplomacy is geared to become the Big Fish or be aligned with the Big Fish. So homilies wont do, become the Big Fish if you want safety.

This is the problem with Conservationism, and the Us vs Them philosophy, you need someone to hate. 1st they went after the Ahmedias, then the Hindus and Christians, and now having eliminated all the rest they are after the Shias. Hate has a way of cannibalizing the body, and it never ends well.

Forced assimilation, has it worked anywhere? Even in France? or China? Temporarily perhaps, but these societies are time bombs for the authorities.
What time bomb,certainly not for china and if France goes along with its plans it will be in certainly better condition than other appeaser European countries in dealing with and containing the islamic problems.they will only have to then concentrate on other problems like normal countries while the other Europeans will have a burden of Islam as an anchor on society which they must drag along.

In china within maybe 1 if not 2 generations,the entire muzzie pop will be subdued and will not remember their ways which will make them less effective at practicing islamic style bio terrorism of expansion or will be completely inert and assimilated to han culture.the only problems will be introduced from the outside.this is the chinese we are talking about,they are systemic and long term in thinking.

I hate china as an adversary but this aspect of their country could hardly be more perfect.you can decipher my opinion of our way of 'assimilitaing' and especially the newer way of assimilating found in European countries.authoritarianism being weak due to these actions against rebellious minorities is such an old falsehood.they are doing and will do very well in the future due to their actions against the uyghers.democracy is not what it is cracked up to be and should not be greater than the nation and its people.
Nation>>>>>democracy.
 
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ataru09

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Most of North India returns that complement. Yes they also want to defeat us, so would you, if you had 90,000 of our army captured and more than half the country bifurcated.
>so would you,

No I wouldn't because that temple has nothing to do with my defeat. How can you you be so blind to not see that it's pure religious hatred? Unbelievable.
 

ataru09

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You wanted qualitative data about radicalisation here you go :
> Nearly all Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and most in Iraq (91%) and Pakistan (84%) support sharia law as official law

"No you see you should ignore all that. I have lived all over India and people everywhere want the same thing you know? Only 5% radical. You are only radical if you vote for a radical party. Because I said so."
 

ezsasa

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Definitely a uygher with dominant turk features. I don't think that's a paki.
Some of the uyghers can look like this as well (cover pic of aljazeera article)
You mean pakis had one more baap they forgot about?
This meme needs updation, need few more guys in the pic.
1601749887377.png
 

Varun2002

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Radicals are a different breed, and they are in every society, because, for them, it is easier to hate. Thankfully they are a minuscule minority, even if very vocal, and prone to violence and intimidation.
Okay, but where is the Pakistani public outrage over hosting so many terrorists- Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim, the 4 hijackers of the Indian Airliner, and perhaps most high profile of them all, Osama Bin Laden? There is more likely to be public denunciation of those who expose/exposed Pakistan's dirty role in all these terrorists being given support and sanctuary, then against the terrorists themselves!
 

Flying Dagger

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I have lived in the East, West and North of India, and have traveled the rest of India extensively. Also I have gone to many countries and interacted with the locals. My own understanding is that people everywhere are the same, they are concerned about the same things, jobs, salaries, getting married, getting admission for their children in good schools, inflation, security and such mundane things. So I disagree with the 1st part of your comment.

Radicals are a different breed, and they are in every society, because, for them, it is easier to hate. Thankfully they are a minuscule minority, even if very vocal, and prone to violence and intimidation.
The difference is Islamic moderate and radicals have one thing in mind that is annihilation of other faith and people.

They pray their allah and ask for win over kaafirs as a daily routine so I don't see any of your POV making any sense.

Their is Maslow's Need hierarchy Theory which is much more established then your utopia. That theory applies to people in general.

It says once the basic needs of people are met they move on to self esteem want and desire.

If one goes by Islamic doctrine

Pretend to be friendly when in low number and when outnumber the kaafirs then destroy them.

For Muslims once they are in a better condition they seek the destruction of Non muslims.

Their is no two way about it.
 

Shankar Deb

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We had both the lands of Indus and half of Bengal taken away from us, don't try to justify their actions
Suppose the sub continent was undivided. There are roughly 20 million Indian Muslims, another 20 million Pakistani Muslims and another 20 million Bangla Deshi Muslims. This means there would be 110 million Hindus and 60 million Muslims out of a total population of 170 million living in one India.

Will we be able to handle this dynamic?
 

Shankar Deb

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Classic examples are the UK, Sweden, France, Canada etc. They move from their Sharia shit hole to North America, Western Europe, Australia etc., maybe get educated, earn a decent living, get to certain standards of living (which they cant even dream of in their native land) and then once they form a certain critical mass, demand for Sharia and try to convert it to the very shit hole they tried to escape from. Such a vicious circle!! Their rapidly expanding population will guarantee their appeasement from the local democratic establishments and it turns into a self feeding fire!
You could well be right, but could you please provide the following figures-

1. Fertility rate of Muslim women in Europe in 2020, and 10 years ago in 2010, vis a vis the rest of the population
2. Date of a Sharia law demand by the local Muslims of any country, to the parliament of that country.

It is good to have opinions, but it is better to back these opinions up with facts.
 

ezsasa

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You could well be right, but could you please provide the following figures-

1. Fertility rate of Muslim women in Europe in 2020, and 10 years ago in 2010, vis a vis the rest of the population
2. Date of a Sharia law demand by the local Muslims of any country, to the parliament of that country.

It is good to have opinions, but it is better to back these opinions up with facts.
answer to second question.

Incase you want to discuss topics beyond pak conflict, you can create a thread as well and have these discussion there.
 

another_armchair

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You could well be right, but could you please provide the following figures-

1. Fertility rate of Muslim women in Europe in 2020, and 10 years ago in 2010, vis a vis the rest of the population
2. Date of a Sharia law demand by the local Muslims of any country, to the parliament of that country.

It is good to have opinions, but it is better to back these opinions up with facts.
Your persistent attempts at gaslighting are admirable. Just don't end up scorching yourself.
 

fire starter

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Shankar Deb

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No the base line must be aligned to complete non interference in others affairs and no expansionist aims of any kind,either through conversions or prolystization for a muslim to be considered non radical.

The ones engaged in relatively normal behaviour are just support personal and willrise up along with the radicals against you where it matters in time and at the very least not help you get displaced or get harmed in any way.

My standard for non radicalization is if a society will chiefly support an outgroup religious person if he blasphemes aginst Islam.

In Pakistan ,muslims minorities like Shias get persecuted for their differences and so there is no need to talk about other minorities which are almost finished anyways.

Anyways I am not against pakis being radical as I don't think they will ever be better and that is something I can bet on and we bharatians should deal with if you know what I mean.They can be radical,it is just that all other civilizations and religious types including atheists should be just as in group biased and radical as they are to counter.let them concentrate in their islamic shitholes.

In case of Muslim minorities in non muslim countries,they must be subject complete and forced integration into culture and country to remove all avenues of rebellion.do just like France is doing now and ideally be like china.
Why should any religious sect not propagate their religion? Barring the Hindus every other religion tries to convert others. So what?

If 1000 years of being ruled by the Muslims and Christians could not make a significant dent in the Hindu faith do you think a few Muslim individuals now will make any difference? Has the world come to an end after A R Rehman converted to Islam?

Hinduism is like the ocean, sooner or later the rivers of every religion will merge with it. A lot of Christians are realizing this already, and there are an increasing number of ordinary people that attend Hindu Vedanta classes in the west, and also come to India to imbibe the religious atmosphere. The Muslims too will in time.

Have the confidence of being a member of an universal faith. This is the greatness of Hinduism
 

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