Pakistan's Ideology and Identity crisis

Rassil Krishnan

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We keep ranting against Pakistan, which is all very well, but let us understand the underlying causes for the current mindset of the Pakistani army.

The 1962 war with China, created a deep scar in our psyche, which we have not yet got over, even though Akshai Chin was a remote mountainous area most Indians had not heard of at that time.

Now imagine if the Chinese were able to conquer the entire North East and captured an entire army comprising of 90,000 men, the acid in our souls would make it very difficult to suppress the NEED for revenge.

The Egyptians made peace with Israel, only after the 1973 Yom Kippur stalemate, when the Egyptians could declare a political victory. Even then it took 12 days secret negotiations in Camp David to arrive at an understanding in Sept 1978, which then led to a rapprochement in March 1979.

We therefore have to be prepared to endure this undeclared war with Pakistan for the foreseeable future, until something happens which the Pakistani can genuinely declare as a victory. This victory has to be real, not something that the Army routinely dishes out to their people, to keep their moral up. This has to be successfully internalized by the army brass so that they feel a semblance of peace in their hearts.

At one time Kashmir was a religious matter, today it is the symbol of the Do or Die desire for revenge. And not being in a position to do anything substantial about it, is eating away at their souls. Even if Pakistan falls apart politically, this desire will not go away. In fact, a balconised Pakistan, with 150 nukes floating around, would become an infinitely more dangerous adversary. All it takes is one Nut Case to decide that "As I sinking, let me take as many with me as possible". There is a Hindi saying that "Even God is wary of the Naked".

So we have to be always on our guard, hit them hard whenever required, and curse them as much as we want on social media, as long as we understand why Pakistan is acting the way it is.
I don't think so.it is in the nature of Islam to spread and it is highly concentrated in pakistani society as it is oneof only 2 institutions that really hold it together,other one being the army.in the case of pakistan there is also no counterbalance in terms of large population wanting prosperity, technological progress,etc as most of the population will be poor with low aspirations and will continue to be so.

In the case of Bangladesh,we did not incorporate it into our landmass like china would have if invaded an area or like it did to tibet.in this case also Bangladesh was started because pak cared about Islam,see above, more than the ethnic makeup of Bangladesh,east pak ,at that time and so they were completely at fault for starting it.they also had habit of starting wars before 1971 like in 1948 and 1965.

Revenge mentality is redundant at best as islamic population think the right way is if a region becomes more islamized and they would consider it evil even if you defend against them and their stately instruments like pak army,etc.so they would have this revenge mentality even if you did not seperate Bangladesh from pak.

So we should not let up and give them any victory and go for total victory using whatever we have.

Right now I think pak army is stuck because they have a burgeoning pop who have a sustainable amount of islamic influence in which no other influence can be incorporated such as other religions,atheism,etc and so they are forced or guided by this to act in accordance as it is the only thing that can legitimately topple it.

Remember the average paki is an Abdul and will never be deracinated ones you might keep as your friend in foreign countries purely from numbers and ability perspective.you will always have the Abdul breed a lot with the other guys and gals having few kids if any and also in terms of street power do I have to mention that these types will fold against the mass Abdul gangs on street.they are also backed by the army and have massive experience in fights and they are also ideologically prepared to destroy other systems and ways of life.allthis means that pak will remain an islamic shithole despite whatever we may have done in 1971 as it is a complete non sequitor.we must instead focus on degradating the capacity of pak in real terms in excersing the internal cohesive Islamism into forms that will hurt india by destroying their state by balkanization.
 

ezsasa

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We keep ranting against Pakistan, which is all very well, but let us understand the underlying causes for the current mindset of the Pakistani army.

The 1962 war with China, created a deep scar in our psyche, which we have not yet got over, even though Akshai Chin was a remote mountainous area most Indians had not heard of at that time.

Now imagine if the Chinese were able to conquer the entire North East and captured an entire army comprising of 90,000 men, the acid in our souls would make it very difficult to suppress the NEED for revenge.

The Egyptians made peace with Israel, only after the 1973 Yom Kippur stalemate, when the Egyptians could declare a political victory. Even then it took 12 days secret negotiations in Camp David to arrive at an understanding in Sept 1978, which then led to a rapprochement in March 1979.

We therefore have to be prepared to endure this undeclared war with Pakistan for the foreseeable future, until something happens which the Pakistani can genuinely declare as a victory. This victory has to be real, not something that the Army routinely dishes out to their people, to keep their moral up. This has to be successfully internalized by the army brass so that they feel a semblance of peace in their hearts.

At one time Kashmir was a religious matter, today it is the symbol of the Do or Die desire for revenge. And not being in a position to do anything substantial about it, is eating away at their souls. Even if Pakistan falls apart politically, this desire will not go away. In fact, a balconised Pakistan, with 150 nukes floating around, would become an infinitely more dangerous adversary. All it takes is one Nut Case to decide that "As I sinking, let me take as many with me as possible". There is a Hindi saying that "Even God is wary of the Naked".

So we have to be always on our guard, hit them hard whenever required, and curse them as much as we want on social media, as long as we understand why Pakistan is acting the way it is.
That’s one way to look at it.

My argument would be that it does not matter what conflict history we have with each other, root of the problem is more fundamental.

Even if bangladesh creation had not happened, some sort of conflict would have existed between India & Pakistan.

problem stems from the fact that Pakistan being an artificially created nation state whose core identity is “Not being Hindustan”, such an artificial construct where they spent decades erasing their historical linkages from their past, will have issues justifying their existence. Effect of such a strategy can be seen by their floating identity every decade or so, sometimes they call themselves Arabs, sometimes Turks, sometimes they think they call themselves children of Mughals, sometimes they call themselves children of Qasim etc etc.

when there is an artificial history created, there are always bound to be gaps in identity crisis. their history books ignore all the periods prior to Qasim’s invasion and next stop is Pakistan’s creation with nothing in between. when there is an identify crisis, best way to manage is to focus on an external enemy to cover up for the deficiencies that stem from such an identity crisis, because once Pakistanis realise that India is actually not their enemy, the Theocratic nation state of Pakistan will implode in sectarian violence because
shia is a kafir for Sunni,
Sunni is a kafir for shia,
both view Ahmadi as kafir,
deobandi view barelvi as kafir,
barelvi view deobandi as kafir,
all of them together view non-Muslims as kafir.

In conclusion it doesn’t matter whether it is civilian govt or military dictatorship in control, easiest way for Pakistan to manage their country is by showing Hindustan as the big bad villian.

Excuse the brevity..
 
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Shankar Deb

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That’s one way to look at it.

My argument would be that it does not matter what conflict history we have with each other, root of the problem is more fundamental.

Even if bangladesh creation had not happened, some sort of conflict would have existed between India & Pakistan.

problem stems from the fact that Pakistan being an artificially created nation state whose core identity is “Not being Hindustan”, such an artificial construct where they spent decades erasing their historical linkages from their past, will have issues justifying their existence. Effect of such a strategy can be seen by their floating identity every decade or so, sometimes they call themselves Arabs, sometimes Turks, sometimes they think they call themselves children of Mughals, sometimes they call themselves children of Qasim etc etc.

when there is an artificial history created, there are always bound to be gaps in identity crisis. their history books ignore all the periods prior to Qasim’s invasion and next stop is Pakistan’s creation with nothing in between. when there is an identify crisis, best way to manage is to focus on an external enemy to cover up for the deficiencies that stem from such an identity crisis, because once Pakistanis realise that India is actually not their enemy, the Theocratic nation state of Pakistan will implode in sectarian violence because
shia is a kafir for Sunni,
Sunni is a kafir for shia,
both view Ahmadi as kafir,
deobandi view barelvi as kafir,
barelvi view deobandi as kafir,
all of them together view non-Muslims as kafir.

In conclusion it doesn’t matter whether it is civilian govt or military dictatorship in control, easiest way for Pakistan to manage their country is by showing Hindustan as the big bad villian.

Excuse the brevity..
You are absolutely right

Pakistanis first tried to differentiate by saying we are not Indian, then we are from Arab decent, and now they are flirting with Turkic ancestry. In the end they will have to acknowledge their Indian heritage only because they would be the most comfortable with it.

I have been in marketing for a long time, and I know how difficult it is to create differentiation. Suppose you are selling a commodity like Atta. Atta is atta so how to create a difference? yet ITC has created the Aashirvaad brand, and selling this brand at a premium. Similarly India and Pakistan are the same people, just like say the Belgians and the Dutch. Yet they are comfortable in their own identities because they transformed from tribes to a nation from the treaty of Westphalia in the mid 1600s, which is 3 centuries ago.

Pakistan, as an identity is only 74 years old, while the Indian heritage is several thousand years. So give them time.
 

Rassil Krishnan

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You are absolutely right

Pakistanis first tried to differentiate by saying we are not Indian, then we are from Arab decent, and now they are flirting with Turkic ancestry. In the end they will have to acknowledge their Indian heritage only because they would be the most comfortable with it.

I have been in marketing for a long time, and I know how difficult it is to create differentiation. Suppose you are selling a commodity like Atta. Atta is atta so how to create a difference? yet ITC has created the Aashirvaad brand, and selling this brand at a premium. Similarly India and Pakistan are the same people, just like say the Belgians and the Dutch. Yet they are comfortable in their own identities because they transformed from tribes to a nation from the treaty of Westphalia in the mid 1600s, which is 3 centuries ago.

Pakistan, as an identity is only 74 years old, while the Indian heritage is several thousand years. So give them time.
Actually now I don't want Pakis coming back to any indian roots as it will turn out like the south asian term as we will be pulled down a little.

Reputation is like a stock,there is a bit of speculation and then there is real value.whatever it is our indian stock if I may use the term will only go down if we incorporate the pakis within our group or is perceived by other groups to be in the same category as us.

We need to differentiate in any way possible and use all real and narrative fuelled methods to create an unbridgable gap that cannot be crossed by either us or them or can be bridged by any 3rd party trying to hyphenate us with them for whatever purpose.

That is why I love institutions and achievements like isro,drdo,etc as these are engines that create division between us and them.

Good thing is Pakis are not purely Indians and we can always say they are more related to Arabs and central Asians with good evidence and then let the narrative take its course.let the stocks of Arabs and central asian countries like afg,Iran,etc sink with the negative karma points they get from Pakis.

Seriously do you want them to be associated with us.

Be aware,in the future there will be an effort by conniving and influential paki elites and middle upper class cultural refugees form pakistan to try an associate with us as they won't our deeds to rub off them and we will only get bad points as pakistan is only bad as far as the values we appreciate.
 

Vande1947

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It is great to exchange views.

I dont know what you mean by "Abdul", but the daughter of one of my friends of over 50 years, is married to a Pakistani in the US. He is great fun person and every indication I got was that the marriage was happy. The children were normal and loving.

Let me tell you of my experience. I used to work with a British multinational company, and I was sent to Pakistan for a couple of months for some work with our Pakistani counterparts.

I admit the times were different, it was the mid 80s, when things were gentler. In one of the evenings I was taken to the annual Lahore cattle fair which was taking place. I was wearing a blazer which had my College crest, which had the Ashok Pillar 3 lions in the center. That was also a the time when India and Pakistan was playing 6 hockey test matches. One of those matches was taking place that evening. Some of the shops had TVs at their entrances, and I watched the match.

As the Pakistanis cheered every aggressive move, I cheered when India did the same. This naturally drew the attention of the crowd, as I was the only Indian supporter. You will not believe the reception I got when everyone came to know that I was from India. Every shop keeper offered tea or cola, or sweets, and there was genuine bonhomie. The evening was magical as we exchanged tidbits of our lives.

I have traveled extensively within India and also some parts of the world, and all I feel is, people everywhere are the same, despite the politics. They love the same things, like to live well, worry about inflation and children's education, the job market and similar such mundane things.

Maybe we need to be more charitable, even with our enemies.
'charitable' and 'enemy' are mutually exclusive, esp when religion is the basis of enmity.

we have been too 'charitable' in the past----that is the bane of our current problems
 

Shankar Deb

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'charitable' and 'enemy' are mutually exclusive, esp when religion is the basis of enmity.

we have been too 'charitable' in the past----that is the bane of our current problems
Noted

But if you exclude the Pakistani Army and the Jihadis, do you still feel that the rest of the population is radicalized?
 

Shankar Deb

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Actually now I don't want Pakis coming back to any indian roots as it will turn out like the south asian term as we will be pulled down a little.

Reputation is like a stock,there is a bit of speculation and then there is real value.whatever it is our indian stock if I may use the term will only go down if we incorporate the pakis within our group or is perceived by other groups to be in the same category as us.

We need to differentiate in any way possible and use all real and narrative fuelled methods to create an unbridgable gap that cannot be crossed by either us or them or can be bridged by any 3rd party trying to hyphenate us with them for whatever purpose.

That is why I love institutions and achievements like isro,drdo,etc as these are engines that create division between us and them.

Good thing is Pakis are not purely Indians and we can always say they are more related to Arabs and central Asians with good evidence and then let the narrative take its course.let the stocks of Arabs and central asian countries like afg,Iran,etc sink with the negative karma points they get from Pakis.

Seriously do you want them to be associated with us.

Be aware,in the future there will be an effort by conniving and influential paki elites and middle upper class cultural refugees form pakistan to try an associate with us as they won't our deeds to rub off them and we will only get bad points as pakistan is only bad as far as the values we appreciate.
A definitely valid point of view.

I however have a different take on the subject. I want every one to WANT to be associated with us. Would you object to Nepal, or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka wanting to claim an Indian heritage? The biggest Hindu temple complex in the world is in Cambodia, and if they claim to have an Indian heritage, would you object?

Mohan Bhagwat of the RSS said everybody in the Indian subcontinent is Hindu. The word Hindu comes from the Indus river, and describes a location, and not a religion. India is a diverse country, and more countries wanting to be associated with us will only increase this richness and diversity. Which I feel is fantastic.

The Hindu philosophy is so strong that even a 1000 years of rule by the Muslims and Christians, could convert only 20% of the population. In other parts of the world like Central Asia, Africa, South America, and Mexico, it took only a few decades to convert the entire population to the religion of the rulers.

So, we must be totally confident that nothing and nobody can challenge our way of thinking, least of all Islam. Hinduism can never be threatened.
 

Shankar Deb

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'charitable' and 'enemy' are mutually exclusive, esp when religion is the basis of enmity.

we have been too 'charitable' in the past----that is the bane of our current problems
Porus was the enemy but Alexander freed him, as per folk lore. Mandela forgave the white apartheid tormentors, and saved his country.

It takes immense confidence and maturity to be a statesman.
 

ezsasa

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Noted

But if you exclude the Pakistani Army and the Jihadis, do you still feel that the rest of the population is radicalized?
it’s not just about radicalisation, does the Pakistani civilian society have sizeable influential group among them to provide a counter balance to their mainstream negative narratives on hindus and India. And worse whoever tries to balance the debate over there gets shot at or targeted.

I think answer is no, they don’t have checks and balances from sliding down a slippery slope when time comes for people to choose. What do you think?

In India, we can confidently say there are checks and balances built into the society and governance systems irrespective of whichever ideology is in power.
 

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Noted

But if you exclude the Pakistani Army and the Jihadis, do you still feel that the rest of the population is radicalized?
Every last one of them is a potential radicalized Jihadi Terrorist. It is the truth. I don’t understand why is it so hard for Hindus to accept this. They enjoy seeing death of Indians especially Hindus like during the death of Sushma Swaraj ma’am. They hate India and they hate all Hindus. When they say “We love India and Hindus and but hate RSS” crap you bet it is all part of there Taqiya.
 
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Shankar Deb

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Please, if you want to quote history, get your names right, don't use Britshit terms. Its River Sindhu and King Puru, not porus, indus .
Looks like we have brown sahib amidst us who would rather bow to jinnah and Macaulay
Maybe I missed the right books. Apologies. :)
 

Shankar Deb

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Every last one of them is a potential radicalized Jihadi Terrorist. It is the truth. I don’t understand why is it so hard for Hindus to accept this. They enjoy seeing death of Indians especially Hindus like during the death of Sushma Swaraj ma’am. They hate India and they hate all Hindus. When they say “We love India and Hindus and but hate RSS” crap you bet it is all part of there Taqiya.
There is a difference between hearsay, opinion and evidence. One evidence that all Pakistanis are not radicalized is that the radical parties barely get 5 % of the votes during elections.
 

Deathstar

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There is a difference between hearsay, opinion and evidence. One evidence that all Pakistanis are not radicalized is that the radical parties barely get 5 % of the votes during elections.
I think you mistaken channeling of radicalism. Pakistanis do hate radicals when they harm their society but absolutely love it when radical anger is directed at us....
For them hating India doesnt come under the ambit of radicalism ,its like normal , justified
 

ezsasa

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There is a difference between hearsay, opinion and evidence. One evidence that all Pakistanis are not radicalized is that the radical parties barely get 5 % of the votes during elections.
what’s the correlation between votes & radicalisation? do you have any study to prove that terrorists coming to India follow a voting pattern?
 

Shankar Deb

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I think you mistaken channeling of radicalism. Pakistanis do hate radicals when they harm their society but absolutely love it when radical anger is directed at us....
For them hating India doesnt come under the ambit of radicalism ,its like normal , justified
Again this is hearsay, any evidence? or are you quoting their Twiteratti?
 

Shankar Deb

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what’s the correlation between votes & radicalisation? do you have any study to prove that terrorists coming to India follow a voting pattern?
If one is radicalized, then it is logical to think that he is likely to vote for like minded radical parties. And the fact that only about 5% vote for such parties should tell us something. As far as the terrorists go, these are poor village boys who are brain washed into radicalism, a classic example was Kasab. The brain washers were from the 5%
 

ezsasa

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If one is radicalized, then it is logical to think that he is likely to vote for like minded radical parties. And the fact that only about 5% vote for such parties should tell us something. As far as the terrorists go, these are poor village boys who are brain washed into radicalism, a classic example was Kasab. The brain washers were from the 5%
There is a difference between hearsay, opinion and evidence. you are yet to provide evidence.
 

Knowitall

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If one is radicalized, then it is logical to think that he is likely to vote for like minded radical parties. And the fact that only about 5% vote for such parties should tell us something. As far as the terrorists go, these are poor village boys who are brain washed into radicalism, a classic example was Kasab. The brain washers were from the 5%
A bigger threat than pakistan are people like you living in some kind of a dream world until reality comes knocking.

Kashmiri pandits should be a good example of what happens when you grow lax and put too much trust.
 

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