Pakistanism(s) in Pakistani discourse

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Even non highlighted parts of this article, this all write up is a full cope LOL.
On India
India is relevant to the world, not only in its size and girth but by its footprint and what matters to the world
Shahzad ChaudhryJanuary 13, 2023
the writer is a political security and defence analyst he tweets shazchy09 and can be contacted at shhzdchdhry yahoo com

The writer is a political, security and defence analyst. He tweets @shazchy09 and can be contacted at [email protected]
If I were Henry Kissinger, I would write a treatise ‘On India’. Such has been the monumental change in India’s fortunes as a State and a player principally in Asia and broadly on the global stage. Modi may be a despised name in Pakistan, but he has done something to brand India which none before him was able to manage. Importantly, India does what it feels and to the extent she needs. And it all stays kosher. It is an ally of the US; a rub Pakistanis go to town with, complaining relentlessly about the US as its closet patron. We are delusionary and deceptive in assessing our standing and employ double-speak as an art, vilifying the US as a popular pastime while whingeing when it accosts India. Russia is under American sanctions, and none can trade freely with Russia except India which buys Russian oil on preferred terms and then re-export it to help an old patron earn dollars the indirect way. Two opposing military superpowers of the world claim India to be its ally. If this isn’t diplomatic coup, what is?
It all comes from one word — relevance. India is relevant to the world, not only in its size and girth but by its footprint and what matters to the world. Consider. It has the fifth largest economy in the world, ahead of the UK. It is aimed to be the third largest economy in the world by 2037. It is fourth in FE Reserves with over 600 billion USDs — Pakistan currently holds 4.5 only. Its growth rate in GDP matches the best performing economies over the last three decades after China. She is projected to stay on that path. India has world’s second largest army and the third largest military. It may not be the strongest corresponding to the numbers, but it is on path to rapidly increasing its capacity and capability. The global list of billionaires has 140 Indians of which four are included in the top 100.
Mittal is steel giant. Ambanis run multiple interests varying from defence to telecom. Infosys, an IT giant, is a global name. So on and so forth. India stands amongst the top producers in agri-products and in the IT industry. Their yields per acre in agriculture match the best in the world. And despite being a country of over 1.4 billion people, it remains a relatively steady, coherent and functional polity. Their system of governance has withstood the test of time and proved its resilience around fundamentals essential to a resolute democracy. It may not be the most efficiently or most equitably run society, but it has held on to anchors which have paved the way for it to solidify what makes a nation. To many it may not be secular enough — its Constitution still is, even if attitudes of the power wielders are not. Under Modi it has crafted a religious-nationalist plank of its newer assertion and identity. Don’t balk. World over the trend is of the Right gaining eminence in social attitudes. Pakistan in this realm has its own set of challenges. Importantly, it seems to be working for Modi and India.
India jumped to a 100 billion USD reserves in 2004 from the measly 9.2 she had in 1992. Under Manmohan Singh, India increased her reserves to 252 billion USD by 2014. Under Modi these have galloped to over 600 billion and the GDP is sized over three trillion USDs. This is monumental progress which makes India a preferred destination for all investors. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan’s fraternal brother, announced an investment of over 72 billion USDs in India even as we beg her to invest the 7 billion promised for Pakistan. Pakistan’s iron-brother, China, pledged 10 million USD in the very latest donors conference in Geneva to help Pakistan out of its financial predicament as well as a looming bankruptcy, as did Pakistan’s favourite whipping boy, America. Somehow, both place equal premium on Pakistan’s prospects.

And though Indian writers have this propensity to overstate India’s heft and hem there should be no doubt that this century will see Asia defined by two most dominating nations in economic strength, military haughtiness and political impact — China and India. The gap between Pakistan and India is now unbridgeable. India has broken free of the shackles that kept her tied in South Asia and hyphenated in global perception with Pakistan. Beginning with Rajiv Gandhi to Modi there has been a clear distancing of the Indian foreign policy away from Pakistan. That turns India more Asia than just South Asia and a clout which is far expanded. The world has taken note and regardless how much we play China vs India as a sorry paradigm for face-saving both are now above 100 billion USDs trade that binds them with a common aim to quickly move to 500 billion. Those who trade at that level never graduate beyond sticks and clubs, even if spiked, and whatever the savagery of their brawl. It is time to smell some real leaves.
One hates to admit, but Pakistan was politically outmanoeuvred by India on Kashmir by rescinding Article 370 of its Constitution which gave a special if not disputed status to the region. Her gradual mutation of the demographics in her favour continues unabated. And as the older generation of the defying Kashmiris bows out the young view issues far less weighed by emotive persuasion. In combination with unmatched density of military presence over decades the new normal has practically established newer realities. And while Pakistan’s principled stance may just remain the same, work-around shall have to be found to factor in newer realities and graduate policy to benefit from this immense economic activity taking place in the neighbourhood. Placing artificial restraints on what can be a moment of deliverance to the rapidly impoverishing people of Pakistan is failing them with bankruptcy of thought. We are better only when stabler and economically buoyant. Time to shed the rhetoric.
India’s global footprint is remarkable. She is invited to the G7 and is a member of the G20. It is leading a movement of the global South to represent what is critical to equitable progress in the times of climate change, pandemics and technology intrusion. It has a blueprint of establishing her own domain on the foreign policy front and sticks to it assiduously. She may seem arrogant and haughty at times triggering aversion but feels she has the space to assert her presence. It is a fine line but her foreign policy apparatus treads it skillfully. Modi has brought India to the point where she has begun to cast a wider net of its influence and impact. Pakistan has been skillfully reduced to a footnote in this Indian script. It is time to smell some real leaves.
It is time to recalibrate our policy towards India and be bold enough to create a tri-nation consensus, along with China, focusing on Asia to be the spur for wider economic growth and benefit. That alone will turn geoeconomics into a strategy. Breaking away from convention and boldness in conception can address this newer paradigm. Or we may be reduced to the footnote of history.
Another, sorry if posted earlier.

Hoodbhoy has a specific pattern of write to attribute India's gains to his favourite political faction. Despite being a scientist, Pakistanism inside him hinders him utilising any kind of historical, scientific and logical way of argument, and just as any other Pakistani, he believes that BJP is some kind of fascist party and Indians are a some kind of supremacist bunch like Europeans during first world war LOL.

Such an idiot.
Modi’s double-engine sarkar
Pervez Hoodbhoy Published November 5, 2022

The writer is an Islamabad-based physicist and writer.

The writer is an Islamabad-based physicist and writer.
WHEN Prime Minister Narendra Modi barrels around India to support allies running for state government elections his war cry is: ‘ab ki bar double engine ki sarkar’ (this time a double-engine government). At face value this means having the BJP at the centre together with BJP governments in every one of India’s 28 states. State residents are promised that two engines pulling together will deliver twice the power.
But the true meaning of Modi’s double engine metaphor transcends India’s state-level electoral politics. It’s actually about reinventing national ideology, culture, and education. To understand why India presently stands so high on the world stage — and also how it could crash down — let’s peek inside the two engines. The lessons for Pakistan are immediate and obvious.
The first engine pulls India along the road to prosperity and modernity. It has sent Indian spacecraft winging to the moon and Mars, placed India’s IT and pharmaceutical companies among the world’s largest, filled America’s best universities with professors who are graduates of Indian universities, and created some of the world’s biggest business empires. Several top Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are Indian.
President Joe Biden recently quipped that “Indian Americans are taking over this country”. He could have meant Britain as well where Rishi Sunak is its new prime minister with personal wealth surpassing that of the newly crowned King Charles III. Sunak’s Bangalore-based father-in-law is the founder of Infosys; this Indian IT company’s market capitalisation recently crossed a staggering $100 billion.

Retrograde cultural forces are strong in India yet it forges ahead while Pakistan regresses. Why?
Also read: Pak-India education compared
These are substantial, undeniable achievements that hubris-filled Hindu nationalists say derive from their greatness as an ancient civilisation. But wait! China has done still better. And, though far smaller, many emergent countries of East Asia — Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and Singapore — also boast of better performance than India’s.
In every case, the secret of success is well-known — strong systems of education that create skills, knowledge, attitudes and social behaviours suited for modern times. Together with that, a strong work ethic in the labour force. Stated differently, high national achievement springs naturally from the quickness with which a country universalises or ‘Westernises’ its education and creates positive attitudes towards work.
Here’s how India grew into the present. Empowered by the scientific and industrial revolutions, Britain colonised India and sought to spread Western education and values. Conservative Hindus emphatically rejected this modernisation but reformist movements such as Brahmo Samaj under Ram Mohan Roy and others made deep inroads.
By 1947 under Jawaharlal Nehru — an avowed Hindu atheist devoted to the ‘scientific temper’ — India was already intellectually equipped to enter the modern world. For the next 50 years, India’s education sought to create a pluralist, secular, scientifically minded society. It reaps rich harvests to the present day — which the BJP happily appropriates as its own.
But Hindu nationalists now want India’s goals and self-image drastically revised. Modi’s second engine, fuelled by febrile imaginations, pushes India towards emulating some kind of Hindu rashtra from an idyllic past. My friend Prof Badri Raina, now retired from Delhi University, says that “this backward engine would have us believe that in ancient times we had knowledge of plastic surgery, aeronautics, satellite vision, even as streams of foaming white milk flowed down our plains, and golden birds perched on the branches of trees”.
What if the likes of Roy and Nehru had never existed? Under engine #2 India’s education would have been Sanskrit-based with English only barely understood. Post-independence India would have become a garbage dump for every kind of crackpot science. Medical research would have focused on medicines made from cow urine and cow dung, the celibacy of peacocks would be under intense scrutiny, astrology would be taught in place of astronomy, and there would be Vedic mathematics instead of actual mathematics.
Let’s turn now to subcontinental Muslims and then to Pakistan.
Two hundred years ago, it was crystal clear that the dull daily rote of memorisation in traditional madressahs was wholly unsuited for the modern age. Meanwhile, children of Indian parents in English-medium schools were learning trigonometry and logarithms, the properties of solids and gases, and of experiments that showed these obeyed certain laws. Instead of the greatness of kings and emperors, schools taught ideas of parliamentary and legal systems.
The ulema across India fiercely resisted the modern curriculum. The zamindar and jagirdar also saw little use for it even if he sent his boys to school or, as occasionally happened, to Oxford and Cambridge. Very few opted for science, medicine, or other forms of hard learning. Most learned just the airs and graces that would assure their social position back home.
The loudest call for reforming Muslim education was that of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan. Madressahs, he said, are entirely unnecessary. Using religious idiom he passionately argued for science and modernity. While his efforts led to some measure of functionality and to jobs within the colonial system, they were nowhere deep or wide as that of Brahmo Samaj. Conservative backlash limited Sir Syed’s influence.
Thus, by the time Partition came around, there was a massive Hindu-Muslim gap. Nevertheless, for the first few decades, Pakistan’s engine #1 steadily gained strength and was consistently stronger than its second engine. Among other things, Pakistan’s space programme (born 1961, now dead) much preceded India’s.
Forward motion slowed then stopped in the 1980s after Pakistan’s engine #2 took over. Standards and workforce competence sank. Institutions and organisations steadily crumbled for lack of modern-minded people. Industrialisation flopped in spite of the billions pumped in by America, China and Saudi Arabia. Finding graduates of Pakistani institutions capable of performing even basic tasks became harder and harder. Throwing more money at education was tried but learning outcomes kept worsening.
Pakistan’s regular schools have now come to resemble madressahs with the difference shrinking by the year. Many surveys indicate student learning has descended to Somalia-like levels. Adding more fuel to engine #2, the PDM government has accelerated implementation of the regressive Single National Curriculum conceived by Imran Khan’s government. Helplessly, we gravitate downward. Will India eventually suffer Pakistan’s fate? That depends upon which of its two engines can pull harder.
 

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Retrograde cultural forces are strong in India yet it forges ahead while Pakistan regresses. Why?
Because Pakistan is a retrogate and regressive country in itself. "Indians are more extremist & hateful" is a Pakistani construct to soothe their own minds and justify existence of Pakistan after failure of the concept. Reality starkly mismatches the construct. Given that India is a functional secular state, the most extremist form of India is more liberal than liberal form of Pakistan.

If yet Indians were to be seen as extremists at par with Pakistanis, Indians would be like highly equipped and powerful European colonial powers when Pakistanis would be sub modern jungle warriors like Taliban.
And, though far smaller, many emergent countries of East Asia — Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and Singapore — also boast of better performance than India’s.
No, in terms of core sectors and economic progresses, none of these countries had a quicker progress than India's. Except for China, Japan and SKOR, no country comes even close.

They all are just better than Pakistan. All Asian countries except Afghanistan and Yemen are better than Pakistan.
Stated differently, high national achievement springs naturally from the quickness with which a country universalises or ‘Westernises’ its education and creates positive attitudes towards work.
Somehow "westernisation" didn't save Latin America and Phillippnes from sinking and lack of it didn't prevent Japan from climbing to the top of world.
Westernisation is about American pop culture or uneducated Jesus loving flat earth idiots. Imitating them hasn't ever improved the fortunes of any country.
Modernization is a different drive requiring a different kind of operating mindset since start like founding fathers of China, India, Korea and USSR had.
Anyone who thinks Modernisation and progress will magically appear after westernisation is an ABCD (American Born Confused Desi) with a sense racial superiority in white people due to his lack of education. Such people think they are educated while they are not.
Here’s how India grew into the present. Empowered by the scientific and industrial revolutions, Britain colonised India and sought to spread Western education and values.
Bullshit, there has been no involvement any kind of British inherited agency in what you can call feat modern India.
Most of modern institutions were built after 60s and most feats began after 90s. British empire didn't contribute anything to India except mass famines. If we have to believe otherwise, why British didn't civilise rest of world and just a society (which actually had existed as a settled civilisation thousands of years before Britain came into existence).
Conservative Hindus emphatically rejected this modernisation but reformist movements such as Brahmo Samaj under Ram Mohan Roy and others made deep inroads.
These movements were rejected by communists, Hinduism hating dalit leaders and nationalists of Congress too, were they conservative too LOL?
By 1947 under Jawaharlal Nehru — an avowed Hindu atheist devoted to the ‘scientific temper’ — India was already intellectually equipped to enter the modern world.
Yet, somehow it took next 40 years and had to build new institutions before making anything scientific.
For the next 50 years, India’s education sought to create a pluralist, secular, scientifically minded society.
Bullshit LOL.
Indian scientists you read about largely from Brahmin families of South India.
It reaps rich harvests to the present day — which the BJP happily appropriates as its own.
After reviving and delivering dead projects between 1998-2004 and 2014-present which were otherwise cancelled by Congress, sure BJP alone has the credits for electronics and aerospace industries of India.
What if the likes of Roy and Nehru had never existed?
Indians would be speaking less English given that there were no scientific movements at least.
Medical research would have focused on medicines made from cow urine and cow dung, the celibacy of peacocks would be under intense scrutiny, astrology would be taught in place of astronomy, and there would be Vedic mathematics instead of actual mathematics.
Somehow, digital system and trigonometry are derivative of same Hindu mathematics which he calls "different from actual maths" LOL.


If a Pakistani "scientist" can blatantly display this level of incompetency and lack of education, imagine what common Pakistanis are upto. The way Hoodbhoy talks, even a second year Hindu nationalist B. Tech student, GATE aspirant student from some second tier Indian university can do a better lecture.
 

The Juggernaut

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79. Once upon a time Pakistan used to feed whole India. They were sending wheat during 1960s. Their gandum saved Indian from starvation.

After, hilali's comment on Talk Show, and many places it came, There was something .

Somehow, I have heard similar dialogs from brits, muricans, also that they used to feed India.

1674034823571.png
 
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Somehow, I have heard similar dialogs from brits, muricans, also that they used to feed India.
It's British version of copium.

We civilised India, "British built institutions" are the reason why India stands so high in world today, Britain "funds" India's space program and military budget with its $50 million "aid".

It is their version of "Pakistanism" LOL who are coping that their world ruling island has been reduced to a footnote in news.
 

The Juggernaut

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80. Pakistan is the "GRATEST" nation on earth but It is "UNDOKYOOMENTED".

Same energy as, "wee hev 3 trillyun ekanomee but its undokyoomented, we hev 30 million car salez every yiar but thoz are unregisturd, we generate 1 terawatt electricity but it is not calcyoolated as it is informally prudyoosd by paxtani awaam".
And the classic one
"Hamare pazz India se jyada thalent hai! butz opportunity nhi milthi"
Thus : Pakistan is the "GRATEST", especially GRATER than india, butz Nowhere and no-one writes it greatest , So It is "UNDOKYOOMENTED".
 

The Juggernaut

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81. There are some disagreements on Pakistan's origin that when it created.

British created pakistan. -------(1)
One may also argue that it was jinnah.--------(2)
Allah created Pakistan --------(3)
So for pakistani's equating all sides we get ~
Pakistan's spiritual father Iqbal dreamed existence of Pakistan..........(4)
Pakistani Rooh came to body during reign of Aurangeb........(5)
Pakistan entered when Quasim invaded sindh. ........................(6)
Pakistan was existing since creation of this Qayanat. Only it was not visible.........(7)
Pakisan has always existed because it was Allah's will.................(8)
 
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81. There are some disagreements on Pakistan's origin that when it created.



Pakistan's spiritual father Iqbal dreamed existence of Pakistan..........(4)
Pakistani Rooh came to body during reign of Aurangeb........(5)
Pakistan entered when Quasim invaded sindh. ........................(6)
Pakistan was existing since creation of this Qayanat. Only it was not visible.........(7)
Pakisan has always existed because it was Allah's will.................(8)
792mj2.jpg
 

Hari Sud

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With so much economic troubles in Pakistan; is there a talk of putting the Army and Mullahs under control?. These two have ruined the country and if they still stay in control, then the aid givers may bail Pakistan out today but the same situation will repeat, I guess in five years from now. It is their useless spending on their Army & Mullahs and freedom to fabricate religious stories about Kashmir which has created this situation.
 

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With so much economic troubles in Pakistan; is there a talk of putting the Army and Mullahs under control?
These two have ruined the country and if they still stay in control, then the aid givers may bail Pakistan out today but the same situation will repeat, I guess in five years from now. It is their useless spending on their Army & Mullahs and freedom to fabricate religious stories about Kashmir which has created this situation.
They are the base of country, Pakistan was created so that radical Islam can grow peacefully. Without the grip of army and maulvis, Pakistan will fall apart as all sects will run for their own state.
 

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Gimme the source .. I need to hear this lmao.. By what you are saying these jahils don't understand fundamentals or maths for that matter.
it's there in almost all their mainstream discussions after niazi came to power.

it goes like this..

A - India ka GDP dekho , unka economy kitna taraqqi kad raha hai.
B - ha, unka aabadi bhi utni zyada hai ..
A - nods his/her head.
A - hamari hukumran ko kaun samjhaye, allah ne pakistan ko strategic location diya, minerals diye . phir bhi hamare hukumuran iss mulk ko sambhal nahi paa rahe hai.. dono mulk ek saath azzad hue, phir bhi hamara yeh haal hai. kabhi IMF, kabhi establishment, beda garak kar ke rakha hai sabne. allah hi iss mulk ko bacha sakta hai..
B- nods his/her head.
 

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The depth of India’s strategic vision

Even if we ignore the truckload of spelling mistakes, the peak retardedness in this single paragraph represents the average self-proclaimed pakistani exfarts who speak without research.

Manmohan didn’t do anything, IMF forced him to.
PIA doesn’t have $100 bn in debt, it hasn’t even made that much revenue in its lifetime.
India’s per capita income was lower than pakistan till 2007.
Our forex reserves are $561 billion not more than $600 billion.
Not just Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and Chennai, 15 cities in India have metro rail and roughly half a dozen cities have it under construction.

1678252950774.png
 

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Even if we ignore the truckload of spelling mistakes, the peak retardedness in this single paragraph represents the average self-proclaimed pakistani exfarts who speak without research.

Manmohan didn’t do anything, IMF forced him to.
PIA doesn’t have $100 bn in debt, it hasn’t even made that much revenue in its lifetime.
India’s per capita income was lower than pakistan till 2007.
Our forex reserves are $561 billion not more than $600 billion.
Not just Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and Chennai, 15 cities in India have metro rail and roughly half a dozen cities have it under construction.

View attachment 196007
India's forex reserves was all time high in June 2021 at 640 billion dollar. Now after Ukraine crisis it decreased. Last few weeks back it is increasing.
 

The Juggernaut

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82. Another very common Pakistanism:



Pakistan's population is rich, government is poor.
India's population is poor, government is rich.

It became really prevalent during economic collapse in 2022 when IMF started refusing free bailouts.
Another very common Pakistanism:

Pakistan's population is rich, government is poor.
India's population is poor, government is rich.


Which is just another brainfart statistically puncturable.
 

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82. Another very common Pakistanism:



Pakistan's population is rich, government is poor.
India's population is poor, government is rich.

It became really prevalent during economic collapse in 2022 when IMF started refusing free bailouts.
That is an old Pakistanism of 1980s era when separation of poor Bengalis had greatly boosted indicators of Pakistan. It disappeared in 1990s after Pak's economic degradation and was brought back online madarsachhap qaum in late 2010s.
 

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That is an old Pakistanism of 1980s era when separation of poor Bengalis had greatly boosted indicators of Pakistan. It disappeared in 1990s after Pak's economic degradation and was brought back online madarsachhap qaum in late 2010s.
More than that it has become coping mechanism. Now reality is changing fast and they are still in those opinions.
 

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More than that it has become coping mechanism.
Always was as was Pakistan defeating Soviets or being a role model for Korea. Daydreaming and coping is only thing which doesn't cost dollars and forex reserves, so pakis are no. 1 at it.
Now reality is changing fast and they are still in those opinions.
You can't wake someone up who's pretending to sleep, isn't it? It won't change even if India's GDP per capita crosses 5 times of Pakistan.
They are saying something they "want to believe". So any kind of evidence, logic or data is irrelevant to them. Pakistan will always remain a 50 trillion dolla but undokumented economy.
 

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