Pakistani troops to be trained by Australia.

Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,880
Likes
48,587
Country flag
Sailor, the devil and the deep blue sea comes to mind. I can see India's POV on others helping their enemy. I would be a tad miffed if others trained others to attack my soldiers. I'm sure China has a good stock of the nuclear brew and is just stockpiling it for a rainy day:wink: As we say "there is no such thing as a free lunch" so, I wonder what Pakistan is giving in return?
Gwadar port access to Persian Gulf and Arabian sea

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC04Df06.html

 

Sailor

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
591
Likes
6
Sailor, the devil and the deep blue sea comes to mind. I can see India's POV on others helping their enemy. I would be a tad miffed if others trained others to attack my soldiers. I'm sure China has a good stock of the nuclear brew and is just stockpiling it for a rainy day:wink: As we say "there is no such thing as a free lunch" so, I wonder what Pakistan is giving in return?
It all gets down to interpretations doesn't it Dave. We see our involvement as wanting to help India and the whole mess. It can be seen as the opposite but isn't what is meant.
No winners.
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,880
Likes
48,587
Country flag
Gwadar port: with help from the Chinese I see.


edit

Make that, HUGE help from China. Another pearl in the necklace. Soon it will be China controlling all activities in that area.
and monotoring the oil tankers,and squeeze USA out of that region,and rumor has it China wants a base in Iran. Control the energy routes and you control the world.
 

Sailor

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
591
Likes
6
Yes interesting article Lethal. Think we are going to hear a lot more about this little project you bought to light.
 

dave lukins

Professional
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
153
Likes
3
It all gets down to interpretations doesn't it Dave. We see our involvement as wanting to help India and the whole mess. It can be seen as the opposite but isn't what is meant.
No winners.
True I'm sure. I can see the Australians point in training others to be able to fight terrorist and Terrorism. I am sure that the UK and others have provided assistance, be it training or financial incentives. I think the objective is to train Pakistan in the best method of ridding themselves of the Taliban rather than specific training on how to attack its neighbours.
 

dave lukins

Professional
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
153
Likes
3
it has been in development for 5+ years.
Looks like China are holding all the aces

The network of rail and road links connecting Pakistan with Afghanistan and Central Asian republics that is envisaged as part of the Gwadar project and to which China will have access would provide Beijing an opening into Central Asian markets and energy sources, in the process stimulating the economic development of China's backward Xinjiang region.
 

johnee

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
3,473
Likes
499
Sailor and Dave,

It is clear to everyone in India that Pakistan does not consider the war with taliban theirs. Further, they dont want to fight their own people(the very people that they created.). Next, the Taliban has displayed some amazing military tactics, did anyone wonder who is advising them? IMO, one part of PA is helping them, giving them advises(recently, a top military commander was seen giving namaz with fazalullah), while the other part of PA is putting up a charade for the western eyes.
Those who are helping Pakistan with billions of dollars and combat training, must know that all these will be used only against India. My guess is either they already know this and dont care(or support tacitly) or they have not been able to find out this simple truth. That is, either US(and by corollary NATO including Australia) are either party to building Pakistan's capabilities which will be employed against India or they are dumb not to find this out inspite of this charade continuing for about seven years. But whatever the reason, all this aid and training is bad bad news to India and Indians.
Someone wants to help Pakistan, this region(including India), then please stop giving military aids and training to PA. PA(and its branch ISI) is the root of all terror in this region. There is no terrorist who doesnt have links with ISI and is not patronised by PA. If PA is weakened terrorists will get weakened.
 

Sailor

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
591
Likes
6
double post.
Johnee, send a top level Indian delegation to the US and tell the Congress, US Senate and Joint Chiefs of staff this.
Don't bother with Obama.
Do you have any politicians there to do it? [and I'm not being funny]
 

dave lukins

Professional
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
153
Likes
3
Thanks for that Johnee. I am sure the US, who have just given $bns would not have done so on a whim(hopefully) Their Intellegence must suggest some sort of Military advancement against the Taliban but, if as you suggest, they are not interested in fighting their own people then surely the US would have that information and act on it., and act on it hard.
 

johnee

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Messages
3,473
Likes
499
I am sure many Indians would wonder if only the US would stop the incessant aid to Pakistan and let it die a miserable sorry death (that it so deserves), then peace would prevail. But why doesnt US do so. Cant it see that it is being taken for a ride by Pakistan? Since 9/11, US has given (the public figure, anyways) $11 B. And much more is promised. This is puzzling. This whole US aid to Pakistan makes absolutely no sense...or does it. Here is a plausible explanation.

I am posting a conversation between three posters AAA, BBB and CCC on another forum that can unravel some hithereto unknown realms of relation between India, Pakistan and US.


AAA wrote:
So does US aid to Pakistan make any sense?


Yes it does, it makes a lot of sense. We just have to switch off the "halo effect" for a moment and look at the US and its mechanisms for promoting national interest.

You'll find it an open secret that the ISI learned everything it knows from the CIA. Pakistan has been an ally of the US ever since it became a member of SEATO in 1955.

In those days the USA was a brand new superpower. It was guided by the British in developing policy towards all the former British-Empire territories and their surrounding regions. These regions included the Middle East and Central Asia... very crucial for their oil deposits and as a bulwark against the USSR.

The British did not trust newly-independent India because they thought Nehru was too leftist to faithfully do the Americans' bidding. So they fully backed Pakistan as their chosen agent of American policy in the region. Accordingly, the Americans started pumping aid into Pakistan at that time and have basically carried on doing so ever since.

Not only that, but Pakistan's army was seen as a key instrument in the hands of America to stop the USSR's Communist expansion, and to help control the Islamic Middle East. In order to perform these tasks, it was necessary that the Pakistan army should have a top-quality intelligence service. So the British, through an officer named Major General Cawthorne, gave birth to the ISI in 1948.

Just a few months before, in September 1947, the United States' National Security act established the American intelligence agency that we now know as the CIA. It was from the British that the fledgling CIA received its education in all aspects of intelligence operations and doctrine for former British-Empire territories and their neighbouring regions of influence.

Thus the CIA's Office of Near East and South Asia Analysis, and Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence, are in fact Siamese Twins. Siblings nurtured from birth by a common parent, the British SIS and Foreign Office, to perform complementary and mutually inter-dependent roles in the pursuit of what was then a common goal. To stop Russian Communism, and maintain Western influence over the crucial oilfields of the Middle East.

From then until now, the US' dealings with the Indian Subcontinent and Middle East have mainly focused on security interests. Thus, the CIA has been an extremely influential source of advice and its input has always been sought whenever the US Government needed to formulate policy towards these regions.

And of course, the CIA's office of Near East and South Asia Analysis has always been a true, loyal and devoted twin brother to its Pakistani counterpart, the ISI. They are bachpan se jigri dost. They are bhai-bhai to an extent, perhaps unmatched by any other pair of transnational organizations in the world. They have a relationship of interdependence and mutual loyalty to an extent that is actually hard to imagine.

Compared to such a relationship, incidents like 9-11 are nothing: the merest blink of an eye, a tiny aberration, a little misunderstanding between brothers. The CIA will always, always back the ISI's view on all matters regarding the Indian subcontinent, because of the mammoth institutional inertia imposed by the two agencies' fraternal ties.

So you can count on the fact that, any input towards US foreign policy from the CIA... whether it involves giving aid to Pakistan, or blaming India, or promoting Kashmiri secession... will invariably resonate with the interests of the ISI. And because Washington doesn't have any other organization in the region with anywhere close to the depth and breadth of experience as the CIA, the most influential voice in determining US foreign policy towards the region will continue to be the CIA. That is why the US aid to Pakistan makes sense, and will continue to make sense.
BBB wrote:
The above is a great summary. I only have some doubts about the British doing US bidding in the background to the transition to Independence. As far as I know, it was a much more complex dynamic. The British treated Roosevelt's emissary for Indian affairs with great suspcion and did everything to derail his attempts at looking for alternatives to the partition. It was primarily the British who were keen on the partition, and at that stage US had little interest in it. The British could not do much directly to defy the US because of the crucial dependence for resources, so they played the indirect diplomatic evasion and derailing they were so good at. It was the British strategy to see Pak as the key launching pad and remaining strategic presence on the subcontinent and partly to offset their losses to US gains in Asia.

The Leftist connection of Nehru is doubtful as a motivator. Nehru was deliberately promoted by the British with very specific calculations - he would be the weakest of the Congress leaders and the closest psychologically to the British, and therefore the best possible choice to be foisted at the top post. He was the least penalized in terms of freedom to carry out his political activities (he was never exiled, while his potential competitors were usually kept under tight wraps and away from the population). We also see the peculiar pattern in some of our "nationalist" leaders, including Nehru - of suddenly realizing while in jail of the importance of being not against the British but aginst the sole control by the British of state power. The British communist influence angle has to be taken with a pinch of salt as we know that "communists" infiltrated the secret services - which implies that the reverse could also be most likely given British style of functioning. There are reasons for me to say that many of the communist parties of various countries including that of the British had very active moles probably right at the top levels, and could even have been promoted from behind by the secret services. (Take this as my conjecture, as I am reluctant to spell out my arguments and sources).

The British were more likely scared of the growth of popular participation in anti-British movements among the non-Muslims compared to the Muslims, and chose to protect this pocket of mass indifference or support as what they were a sounder basis for longer term startegic presence.
AAA replies:

BBB wrote:
I only have some doubts about the British doing US bidding in the background to the transition to Independence. As far as I know, it was a much more complex dynamic. The British treated Roosevelt's emissary for Indian affairs with great suspcion and did everything to derail his attempts at looking for alternatives to the partition. It was primarily the British who were keen on the partition, and at that stage US had little interest in it. The British could not do much directly to defy the US because of the crucial dependence for resources, so they played the indirect diplomatic evasion and derailing they were so good at. It was the British strategy to see Pak as the key launching pad and remaining strategic presence on the subcontinent and partly to offset their losses to US gains in Asia.


Roosevelt had his hands full through the time of his death, and was replaced by the far more pragmatic (and phlegmatic) Harry Truman. Truman shared little of his predecessor's enthusiasm for hands-on involvement in shaping a "post-colonial" (or more accurately, post-European-colonial) international order. By the time the formation of CIA and ISI were undertaken, Partition was an old story and the Americans had to reconcile to what the British had left them to work with. The Pakistani candidacy for Most Favored Western Proxy was fervently advocated by Philip Noel-Baker, a British delegate to what later became the UN who went on to hold junior ministerial positions in the Attlee government. At that time, the case for Pakistan was couched in the language of anti-Communism, which found many prominent takers in the DC establishment, and went on to influence the views of John Foster Dulles during the Eisenhower regime.
The Leftist connection of Nehru is doubtful as a motivator. .


At a time when nations were perceived by the US as being either "with the reds or against them", I don't think there is anything doubtful about it. Nehru was indeed handpicked for British favour among Independence Movement leaders because he was easiest among them to manipulate. On the other hand, given his well-advertised penchant for Fabian Socialist sentiments, it was very easy for Britain to make the case to the paranoid Washington establishment that Nehru (and hence India) could not be trusted to continue acting as the bulwark against Russian expansionism that British India had always been.
BBB wrote:
But by same token the US supported the Community Development part of the first Indian Five year plan.The emphasis on India was economic development while it was military aid to TSP.


India was a domino that the US could not afford to fall to Communism. India by not falling served the West's interests in Asia and the developing world. So while India was in opposition to the West's hegemony it also was a bulwark of West's interests. This was understood only by the most astute of West thinkers while petty politicans scored browny points. As the leader of the third way India ensured that the newly emergent countries did not fall into the Communist camp.
AAA replies:
BBB wrote:
But by same token the US supported the Community Development part of the first Indian Five year plan.The emphasis on India was economic development while it was military aid to TSP.

India was a domino that the US could not afford to fall to Communism. India by not falling served the West's interests in Asia and the developing world. So while India was in opposition to the West's hegemony it also was a bulwark of West's interests. This was understood only by the most astute of West thinkers while petty politicans scored browny points. As the leader of the third way India ensured that the newly emergent countries did not fall into the Communist camp.
Any fall to the communism by the newly independent states during the period 1940s to 1970s was the biggest fear. Communism which was funded by the west was out of their control by 1930s.
The real fear was communism getting inside US mainland and this led US elite change the policy for the people with the new deal and budget deficit funded welfare from the 1930s.
CCC wrote:
Mollycoddle Pak and chastise India.That has been the way of the US since Independence! Nothing has changed despite a new president taking over.The US plays true to form always.The CIA,Pentagon,and State Dept. cannot give up their "fix" that is Pak.
 

dave lukins

Professional
Joined
May 4, 2009
Messages
153
Likes
3
Johnee again thanks for the above post. There are a lot of points in all the posts and they are obviously not happy with the US for their continuing policy of bailing Pakistan out whilst seemingly leaving India to fend for herself.


Can I have your views on the 'policy in India' piece by H Clinton printed in The Hindu
.

The Hindu :
International : U.S. past Pakistan policy incoherent, says Hillary




and if you have the time:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/14750/candidates_on_us_policy_toward_india.html#
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
Johnee again thanks for the above post. There are a lot of points in all the posts and they are obviously not happy with the US for their continuing policy of bailing Pakistan out whilst seemingly leaving India to fend for herself.
India doesnt need any monetary bail out that we would crib about. Our only problem is that aid to that country is used to wage war against ours.
 

Sailor

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
591
Likes
6
I haven't read it all yet Johnee, but I'm giving you a THANKS for effort. I know what it takes to present a post like that and you work at it.
 

venkat

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
907
Likes
203
sailor! you havent mentioned anything about future Chinese invasion of Taiwan and possibly India! If US doesnt back Taiwan,chinese will Gulp it in a minute and chinese are waiting to strike with massive military build up! Forgetting these flash points , to keep its own business interests Australia sells uranium to china!
when it comes to India and Israel , its concerned about nuclear flash points. India and Israel are virtually struggling to save themselves from the onslaught of muslim terrorism. Again ,i repeat only an Indian can mourn the loss of an indian soldier and indian kashmiri in J&K! you have stated many indian students are studying in Australia! If you see the recent trends, many indian students studying in Oz are brutally being beaten up by OZ youth! So much exhibition of love!
 

Shiny Capstar

Professional
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
158
Likes
4
sailor! you havent mentioned anything about future Chinese invasion of Taiwan and possibly India! If US doesnt back Taiwan,chinese will Gulp it in a minute and chinese are waiting to strike with massive military build up! Forgetting these flash points , to keep its own business interests Australia sells uranium to china!
when it comes to India and Israel , its concerned about nuclear flash points. India and Israel are virtually struggling to save themselves from the onslaught of muslim terrorism. Again ,i repeat only an Indian can mourn the loss of an indian soldier and indian kashmiri in J&K! you have stated many indian students are studying in Australia! If you see the recent trends, many indian students studying in Oz are brutally being beaten up by OZ youth! So much exhibition of love!
Taiwan is safe from a boots on the ground invasion, and will be for a long time. The PLA does not have anything approaching the amphibious capability to put a serious force onshore or keep it from being eliminated. They wont for a long time yet.

Regarding India I don't think China will actually invade, border skirmishes maybe, but not a full invasion. Even if they tried a full scale invasion I doubt they would get far when you take everything into account.

If you see the recent trends, many indian students studying in Oz are brutally being beaten up by OZ youth! So much exhibition of love!
What you hear spread about the media is not usually the full truth, some students may be attacked but most wont. If I were to use your logic I could say things you wouldn't like, but I try to refrain from such childish ways.
 

venkat

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
907
Likes
203
some students may be attacked but most wont. If I were to use your logic I could say things you wouldn't like, but I try to refrain from such childish ways.
some students may be attacked? Come on !why some? not even a single indian student should be attacked! whats is the reason behind such attacks? what has necessiated such attacks? In order to make money and to run the universities,foreign students are invited! Any how my intention is not to derail the thread into some thing inflammatory...may be i am not as mature as you,but please avoid threads that glorify anti indian forces in an indian defence forum!
:india:
 

Shiny Capstar

Professional
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
158
Likes
4
some students may be attacked? Come on !why some? not even a single indian student should be attacked! whats is the reason behind such attacks? what has necessiated such attacks? In order to make money and to run the universities,foreign students are invited! Any how my intention is not to derail the thread into some thing inflammatory...may be i am not as mature as you,but please avoid threads that glorify anti indian forces in an indian defence forum!
:india:
There will always be some racist bastards attacking people, or just fighting for other reasons. That can never be stopped (unless we achieve a perfect society) and happens everywhere in the world.
Secondly how is this thread glorifying anti-Indian forces?
 

Pintu

New Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
12,082
Likes
348
What , I personally feel that the training going to be provided by the Australians can not alone change anything , the Pakistan Army simply lacks the motivation, the cause is that simple: I can not fight the bandit in my home as he resides in my own home , nurtured by me and helped by myself.

Regards
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top