Pakistan: News and Discussions

[venom]

How China Lost Pakistan

July 24, 2009: One of China's major export customers, Pakistan, is being lost to the United States. Not because Pakistan is unhappy with Chinese equipment, but because Pakistan is broke (or more broke than usual), and the U.S. is supplying over a billion dollars a year in military aid. The catch here is that the U.S. always insists that as much of that aid, as possible, be used to buy American weapons and equipment. This is expected to hurt sales of Chinese J10A and JF-17 (co-developed with Pakistan) jet fighters. That's because Pakistan is getting more American F-16s, and upgrades for the F-16s it already has. The U.S. is supplying a lot of other gear, especially to the army, that competes with Chinese models.

It was only last year that, for the first time in over four decades, Pakistan released information on its defense spending. Last year's spending was $4.1 billion. That figure explains why this data has been kept secret for so long. That's because Pakistan's arch-enemy, and neighbor, India is increased its defense budget by nearly 50 percent, to $39 billion, for this year. The difference should be no surprise. India has six times the population (at 1.1 billion) and 7.5 times the GDP ($1.1 trillion compared to $145 billion). India's economy has been booming for over a decade, while Pakistan's largely stagnates.

This military spending disparity has long been suspected, even with the secrecy. The GPD differences were well known, as were the details of how the two forces were equipped. This, of course, is why Pakistan put so much effort into developing nuclear weapons. Only this would provide a credible defense against a militarily superior India. Pakistan has been spending about percent of GDP on defense, while India was long spending two percent (the proposed increase will make it three percent). The global average is about 2.5 percent.

Procurement: How China Lost Pakistan

 

[venom]

PN to get 1st F-22 frigate on 30th july....

 

[Kasrkin]

July 24, 2009: One of China's major export customers, Pakistan, is being lost to the United States. Not because Pakistan is unhappy with Chinese equipment, but because Pakistan is broke (or more broke than usual), and the U.S. is supplying over a billion dollars a year in military aid. The catch here is that the U.S. always insists that as much of that aid, as possible, be used to buy American weapons and equipment. This is expected to hurt sales of Chinese J10A and JF-17 (co-developed with Pakistan) jet fighters. That's because Pakistan is getting more American F-16s, and upgrades for the F-16s it already has. The U.S. is supplying a lot of other gear, especially to the army, that competes with Chinese models.

Actually, the Chinese are more than capable of selling Pakistan military equipment on financially friendly terms. This is reportedly the case with the heavily modified J-10 Squadron said to be on the way. Secondly, Pakistan did scrap the original order of 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s and cut it down to 18, so these 18 Chinese J-10 could be purchased. Pakistan has, however, been able to get its older fleet of F-16 Block 10s upgraded with American approval and American funds. F-16s produced for Pakistan in the 80s but not delivered are also being upgraded, and delivered. That is something the Chinese could not have done obviously. Furthermore the Pakistani target of inducting 250 JF-17 aircraft, co-produced with China, has not been undermined by American pressure, neither is it reliant on American aid, which is primarily geared towards enhancing Pakistan's COIN capability.

 

[venom]

Actually, the Chinese are more than capable of selling Pakistan military equipment on financially friendly terms. This is reportedly the case with the heavily modified J-10 Squadron said to be on the way. Secondly, Pakistan did scrap the original order of 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s and cut it down to 18, so these 18 Chinese J-10 could be purchased. Pakistan has, however, been able to get its older fleet of F-16 Block 10s upgraded with American approval and American funds. F-16s produced for Pakistan in the 80s but not delivered are also being upgraded, and delivered. That is something the Chinese could not have done obviously. Furthermore the Pakistani target of inducting 250 JF-17 aircraft, co-produced with China, has not been undermined by American pressure, neither is it reliant on American aid, which is primarily geared towards enhancing Pakistan's COIN capability.

The most imp thing which pak does not have is MONEY....They purchase 90% of their weapon systems on credit of beg from US.Pakistan's defence budget is almost sponsored by Uncle Sam.
Jf-17 - On credit.
J-10B on credit.
4 Mi-17 donated by usa to pak.
F-16 Upgrade on credit.

Ha ha:viannen_81: mod-edit:-is the comment needed?

 

[Kasrkin]

I believe your theory is incorrect. Pakistan's own defense budget is way more than the 1 billions dollars US provides per year, more than half of which is actually reimbursement for Pakistan's expensive anti-terror operations in FATA, these have nothing to do with India. Pakistan's defense spending in itself is around 6-7 billion, therefore it is inaccurate to say that 'Uncle Sam' is behind it all, or even most of it. Uncle Sam serves his own interests, which like I said, are to enhance Pakistan's COIN capabilities. These capabilities would be of little or no use in a war against India.

 

[Known_Unknown]

I wonder if the budget figure of $4.1 billion mentioned in the article or $6-7 billion mentioned ^^ are correct. India's 126 fighter MMRCA contract comes out to $10 billion, so the 250 JF-17s bought by Pak from China should cost at least the same even if they are half of the price of the Mig-35 or the F/A 18 SH. How can a budget of 6-7 billion, meant for all the three services suffice?

 

[Avinash R]

US provides per year, more than half of which is actually reimbursement for Pakistan's expensive anti-terror operations in FATA

Why do you need american money to kill terrorists who are being trained by your military intel agencies? You should do this with your own money since you trained and taught them to kill on an industrial scale.

Recent reports even suggest pakistani military generals telling terrorist when an american drone is going to attack them, helping them to escape.

And your nation vows an apology to india,afghanistan and all those countries that are being affected by the terror that emanates from pakistani soil.

 

[Kasrkin]

Why do you need american money to kill terrorists who are being trained by your military intel agencies? You should do this with your own money since you trained and taught them to kill on an industrial scale.

I can understand how you could be subject to disinformation. I must point out, however, that the Pakistani Army has not trained, sponsored or tolerated any of the terrorist factions it is confronting right now. Be that the TTP lead by Betullah Mehsud in FATA or his lieutenant Fazrullah in Swat. Most of the rebellion Pakistan faces presently in the west is tribal and ethnic in nature. As I'm sure you know, FATA was never an area where the Pakistan Army (or the British Indian Army before them) had much control. Now many of the tribes there, infiltrated by al-Qaeda (again no Pakistani connection with OBL's organization has ever been credited), are resisting the governments on both sides of the Durand. Pakistan gives US/NATO considerable logistical facilitation for their operations in Afghanistan, in return for which they provide economic and military aid. Much like the Marshal Plan or Truman Doctrine that the US used to secure an alliance with Turkey and Greece during the Cold War, Pakistan too is important to the US, thus it is assisted. The Pakistani Army is geared for conventional war, and COIN operations require specialized orientations and a lot of resources that Pakistan does not have presently.

Recent reports even suggest pakistani military generals telling terrorist when an american drone is going to attack them, helping them to escape.

I don't think such reports are credible, or verifiable. Admiral Mullen did claim something like this happened once but Pakistan has dismissed it as American paranoia. Certainly no details or particulars regarding the incident have been made available, and no neutral source has reported or independently confirmed it.

And your nation vows an apology to india,afghanistan and all those countries that are being affected by the terror that emanates from pakistani soil.

Terror is never a one way flow. Terrorists have been emulating from Afghanistan into Pakistan as well, have been doing so for quite some time. And, if Pakistani intelligence reports are to be believed, terrorist operatives sponsored by India find their way to places like FATA, Swat, Balochistan, even Lahore. Lastly, terrorists are terrorists, unless there is proof that their acts have been directed from the Pakistani government, which is something India has claimed but not been able to substantiate so far, I see no reason why the rest of Pakistan should 'apologize' for a crime that they didn't commit. Its like an Indian student studying in the UK rapes a British girl, and the British say that 'India should apologize', would that be fair? I don't think so. The Mumbai attacks have been condemned by Pakistan, thus unless it is proved that the Pakistani representative government or institutions were behind it, it would be unfair and racist to try and degrade the whole of Pakistan.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Terror is never a one way flow. Terrorists have been emulating from Afghanistan into Pakistan as well, have been doing so for quite some time. And, if Pakistani intelligence reports are to be believed, terrorist operatives sponsored by India find their way to places like FATA, Swat, Balochistan, even Lahore. Lastly, terrorists are terrorists, unless there is proof that their acts have been directed from the Pakistani government, which is something India has claimed but not been able to substantiate so far, I see no reason why the rest of Pakistan should 'apologize' for a crime that they didn't commit. Its like an Indian student studying in the UK rapes a British girl, and the British say that 'India should apologize', would that be fair? I don't think so. The Mumbai attacks have been condemned by Pakistan, thus unless it is proved that the Pakistani representative government or institutions were behind it, it would be unfair and racist to try and degrade the whole of Pakistan.

Are you denying that LeT, JeM, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi etc were created by the ISI?

 

[Kasrkin]

Are you denying that LeT, JeM, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi etc were created by the ISI?

No. LeT probably had links with ISI before. About LeJ I'd say its possible. But JeM I'd doubt it. If you tried to ask me if I deny that the Pakistani state has control over the organization that carried out the assault, then most certainly I deny it. Some of these organizations are still powerful, despite Pakistan Army's largely successful attempts to block their operations across the LoC. Eliminating them entirely will take time, not to mention a resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Kashmir, ofcourse, is a bleeding frontier that agitates the sentiments of Muslims from both sides. Indian Muslims were involved in the Mumbai attacks too, unless I am much mistaken.

 

[Ray]

India must increase her defence budget and start an arms race.

Pakistan is already bankrupt.

Yet, they will do the same and raise their defence budget.

And like the US in this manner wrecked Pakistan, India would do the same!

 

[Ray]

India should raise her defence budget.

Pakistan would have to do the same.

They are already bankrupt.

Pakistan will sink the way the USSR did when the US made them compete when they were sinking economically!

 

[Known_Unknown]

Multiple issues in your post I'd like to address.

No. LeT probably had links with ISI before. About LeJ I'd say its possible. But JeM I'd doubt it. If you tried to ask me if I deny that the Pakistani state has control over the organization that carried out the assault, then most certainly I deny it.

I'm encouraged by your half-admission, but it is a historical fact that these groups were created, trained and funded by the ISI in the late 1990s to spread mayhem in India. There is mountains of evidence to support this assertion, and not even the Pakistani military will deny it. I could spam the board with articles written by retired Pakistani generals about how these terror groups were funded by ISI, but since both you and I know the truth, let's move on.

Next we come to the question of whether or not these terrorist groups are currently being supported by the ISI and Pak Army. You say they're not. India's official position is that they still are. The problem is that while there's plenty of proof that the ISI created these terrorist groups, there is absolutely no evidence that their support has come to an end. While the Pak Army has launched a war against the Taliban in the North East, they have not taken any similar visible action against terrorist groups directed at India operating out of Pakistani Punjab.

On the contrary, the LeT has attacked more and more high profile targets in India in recent years, a sign of its growing strength, not weakness. It stands to reason then that if not actively supporting the terrorist groups against India, the ISI is at the very least turning a blind eye to terrorism emanating from its territory. This could mean two things:

1) That the Pak Army and ISI are in collusion with the terrorist groups and hence are not taking any action against them.

2) That the Pak Army and ISI are incapable of stopping or disrupting the activities of these groups.

In either case, it becomes a problem for India. Enough of a problem that some recent suggestions from former top spies and diplomats for covert offensive action against Pak in Baluchistan and other areas to force Pak to act against these terror groups start making sense.

Eliminating them entirely will take time, not to mention a resolution of the Kashmir dispute. Kashmir, ofcourse, is a bleeding frontier that agitates the sentiments of Muslims from both sides. Indian Muslims were involved in the Mumbai attacks too, unless I am much mistaken.

Such a suggestion amounts to a threat, not a negotiation tactic. Saying that the terror attacks will continue until Kashmir is "resolved" amounts to blackmail or at the very least, coercion. Even if Indian Muslims are involved in 26/11 as facilitators or lookouts, the financing, training, killers and base of operations of these terrorist groups remains Pakistan. And this is the first time in decades that Pakistan has admitted to terrorist groups operating from its soil-only because Kasab was caught alive.

My suggestion-forget about Kashmir. It is, or by now it should be abundantly clear to Pakistan that it cannot take Kashmir by force, and that supporting terrorism will only make it an outcast in the international community. So the best thing for Pakistan would be to push for making the LoC a permanent border between the two countries.

 

[Ray]

I can understand how you could be subject to disinformation. I must point out, however, that the Pakistani Army has not trained, sponsored or tolerated any of the terrorist factions it is confronting right now. Be that the TTP lead by Betullah Mehsud in FATA or his lieutenant Fazrullah in Swat. Most of the rebellion Pakistan faces presently in the west is tribal and ethnic in nature. As I'm sure you know, FATA was never an area where the Pakistan Army (or the British Indian Army before them) had much control. Now many of the tribes there, infiltrated by al-Qaeda (again no Pakistani connection with OBL's organization has ever been credited), are resisting the governments on both sides of the Durand. Pakistan gives US/NATO considerable logistical facilitation for their operations in Afghanistan, in return for which they provide economic and military aid. Much like the Marshal Plan or Truman Doctrine that the US used to secure an alliance with Turkey and Greece during the Cold War, Pakistan too is important to the US, thus it is assisted. The Pakistani Army is geared for conventional war, and COIN operations require specialized orientations and a lot of resources that Pakistan does not have presently.



I don't think such reports are credible, or verifiable. Admiral Mullen did claim something like this happened once but Pakistan has dismissed it as American paranoia. Certainly no details or particulars regarding the incident have been made available, and no neutral source has reported or independently confirmed it.



Terror is never a one way flow. Terrorists have been emulating from Afghanistan into Pakistan as well, have been doing so for quite some time. And, if Pakistani intelligence reports are to be believed, terrorist operatives sponsored by India find their way to places like FATA, Swat, Balochistan, even Lahore. Lastly, terrorists are terrorists, unless there is proof that their acts have been directed from the Pakistani government, which is something India has claimed but not been able to substantiate so far, I see no reason why the rest of Pakistan should 'apologize' for a crime that they didn't commit. Its like an Indian student studying in the UK rapes a British girl, and the British say that 'India should apologize', would that be fair? I don't think so. The Mumbai attacks have been condemned by Pakistan, thus unless it is proved that the Pakistani representative government or institutions were behind it, it would be unfair and racist to try and degrade the whole of Pakistan.

Actually, if Indians are subject to disinformation, then it is the Pakistani Brigadier Generals who are responsible. Have you read The Bear Trap, by Brig Md Yousuf, the deputy director of the ISI. Further, a neutral source, Admiral Mike Mullen had this to say recently-
ISI must stop fomenting chaos in Kashmir, says Admiral Mullen
Philippine Times
Friday 24th July, 2009
(IANS)
The top most US military official has said Pakistan's spy agency ISI has been 'fomenting chaos' in Kashmir and advised Islamabad to restrain it.
ISI must stop fomenting chaos in Kashmir, says Admiral Mullen
Please note that it is from a neutral source – The Philippine Times.

Regarding Pakistan is trained for COIN, it is a moot point. Here are some links:
Pakistani troops Surrender to the Taliban

The Arabic newspaper Asharaq Alawsat article indicates the training standard:

Pakistan Militants Parade 48 Captured Soldiers

02/11/2007

CHARBAGH, Pakistan (AFP) -Islamic militants loyal to a pro-Taliban cleric in northwest Pakistan paraded 48 men said to be paramilitary troops who surrendered during a week of fierce clashes.
Television crews were allowed to videotape conversations with the detainees -- who were later released -- in the troubled Swat Valley tourist area, where security forces are trying to crush a rebellion by insurgents seeking to impose strict Islamic law.
Pakistani troops surrender to Taliban

I would be indeed surprised if the Pakistani Taliban is taking Indian help to fight their wars. Notwithstanding what Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, the leader of the Pathans during Independence had to say that Pakhtoonistan should be a part of India, Pakistan got the majority of Pathan to join Pakistan and then toppled the Chief Minister. Therefore, if the majority of Pathans are for Pakistan, then why should they take help from non Muslims? Or are you suggesting that Pathans find money more worthwhile than the religion? Because that could only be the means how any foreign nation could influence them. Or do you feel that they want their age old desire of having Pakhtoonistan and so are going against Pakistan? And does this same analogy apply to the Baloch?

Here is a discussion on the Balochistan question and the Baloch apparently don't accept that they are Pakistanis. Surely, India could not have bought them all of them:

YouTube - Balochistan's struggle for independence from Pakistani occupation - A discussion 01 of 05

YouTube - Balochistan's struggle for independence from Pakistani occupation - A discussion 02 of 05

YouTube - Balochistan's struggle for independence from Pakistani occupation - A discussion 03 of 05

YouTube - Balochistan's struggle for independence from Pakistani occupation - A discussion 04 of 05

YouTube - Balochistan's struggle for independence from Pakistani occupation - A discussion 05 of 05


As far as the Mumbai attack, Kasab has been owned up as a Pakistani and the others have a court case going on in Pakistan.

 

[xebex]

India must increase her defence budget and start an arms race.

Pakistan is already bankrupt.

Yet, they will do the same and raise their defence budget.

And like the US in this manner wrecked Pakistan, India would do the same!

You forgot about our Eastern neighbour and the buddy of Pakistan. If we start an arms race in the region China too will join the party. As of now, I dont think we can beat Chinese in defence budget and hardware quantity as far as their Growth rate is concerned.

Now, the advantage India have here is its wide options in defence hardware procurement. We have access to the best in the world ie, US, Russian, French and Israeli- a deadly combination. Typical example is Su30 MKI with Russian airframe,Israeli and French avionics.....something China and Pakistan can never dream of.

 

[Kasrkin]

I'm encouraged by your half-admission, but it is a historical fact that these groups were created, trained and funded by the ISI in the late 1990s to spread mayhem in India. There is mountains of evidence to support this assertion, and not even the Pakistani military will deny it. I could spam the board with articles written by retired Pakistani generals about how these terror groups were funded by ISI, but since both you and I know the truth, let's move on.

I disagree that there is conclusive 'proof' regarding the notion that the ISI created each and every one of these groups. Backed, supported, encouraged, facilitated, tolerated, sure. But not all of them and not continuously. It would be rhetorically convenient, yet inaccurate, to say that they were all creations, i.e. their founding members were ISI or other military-men of a Pakistani state institution. The issues in Kashmir are serious enough to allow for ground realities that are conducive to growth of insurrectionist movements. That is something that cannot be ignored or dismissed, there is a limit to how much impact the ISI had on the widespread violence in Kashmir; and how much of it was genuinely motivated and driven by Indian excesses and/or mistreatment.

If you have conclusive evidence to back up your sweeping claims then you are welcome to show it. Political editorials from Pakistani ex-servicemen unlinked to these alleged 'creations' containing only the vaguest references to these groups is not something that will convince me. Neither would it be considered ‘conclusive’ by a neutral observer.

The problem is that while there's plenty of proof that the ISI created these terrorist groups, there is absolutely no evidence that their support has come to an end.

Actually, you are wrong here. There is plenty of evidence that this support has been withdrawn, not least of which is from Indian officials themselves who've acknowledged that infiltration across the LoC has fallen substantially. Pakistan's purpose for supporting these groups was to encourage a Kashmiri insurrection against the Indian occupation, evidently that option has run its course. And operations for that purpose are not being facilitated from the Pakistani side anymore. In fact I've come across much information, including a BBC article, detailing how many of these fighters working for irregular groups linked to the ISI have not only been withdrawn, but are being thoroughly repatriated and introduced to alternate professions so as to discourage further action. The fact that many of these organizations have been repeatedly banned and barred from operating in public is further indication, if you contrast it with the 80s when these groups were recruiting openly in Pakistan. There is plenty of evidence around to show that Pakistan is not supporting Kashmiri insurrectionist organizations anymore, should you wish to see it.

There was a report in Janes Defence Weekly, dated 1995, by the respected Brian Cloughley (who an Indian DGMO called ‘candid and objective’):

Kashmir was another matter. Towards the end of the tenure of Javed Nasir he admitted there had been three camps within Pakistan providing training to Kashmiri guerrillas to fight the Indian Army in `Indian-occupied' Kashmir (that part of Kashmir is under Indian control following UN resolutions that have not been repealed or altered). The ISI, under Nasir's direction and that of some of his predecessors, had been involved in supporting the guerrillas, but the assistance was ended because of pressure from the US and other governments and distaste on the part of the then Chief of Army Staff.

The present Pakistani Chief of the Army Staff does not countenance anything other than Pakistani `popular' support for the Kashmiris, which is, understandably, widespread. There is no question of his
allowing the current ISI Director General to engage in covert operations in support of Kashmiri separatists. Replacement of about 40 senior and middle-ranking ISI officers who were involved in such operations is evidence of the ISI being brought back on the rails of relatively conventional intelligence activities.

Now this is from as far back as 95. Muslim militant activities in India have only gone down since. You may prefer to ignore it, but there is plenty of evidence that the ISI has withdrawn support.

On the contrary, the LeT has attacked more and more high profile targets in India in recent years, a sign of its growing strength, not weakness. It stands to reason then that if not actively supporting the terrorist groups against India, the ISI is at the very least turning a blind eye to terrorism emanating from its territory.

On the other hand you ignore the fact that violence against Indian forces in Kashmir has gone down overwhelmingly compared to when Pakistan was keeping the tap on. Kashmir is, after all, the political and military objective of the groups said to have been in league with the ISI once upon a time. And yet Kashmir is a safer place for the Indian forces than has been the case for decades. High profile attacks like the one in Mumbai, while outrageous, don't achieve much in the way of strategic objectives. On the other hand running a deadly insurgency against heavily armed and prepared military targets on a daily basis requires significantly larger resources and resourcefulness. Mumbai was a soft target, Indian Army camps in Kashmir, however, were not. I believe your contention that organizations like the LeT have grown in strength based on these innovative, but occasional, outbursts of violence is weak at best. There is a more credible counter-narrative, that these public atrocities represent the terrorist's desperation and frustration, instead of martial prowess, should you wish to consider it.

1) That the Pak Army and ISI are in collusion with the terrorist groups and hence are not taking any action against them.

2) That the Pak Army and ISI are incapable of stopping or disrupting the activities of these groups.

Things are hardly ever that simple. Well read and educated people should know that. These groups have been banned, their leadership; propaganda, recruiting and financial operations has been forced underground. They still, however, exercise considerable influence and power, especially in Azad Kashmir, but in parts of Punjab as well. These people are part of the population, they enjoy support from the population, and what is more is that they avoid confrontation with the Pakistani state, which makes it harder to identify and act against them. Even if Pakistan did have all the resources and motivation, at the end of the day it would still be a futile effort to eliminate these people entirely. Kashmir, like I said, is a bleeding frontier that has and will generate enough ideological energy to sustain these sentiments and these groups. Pakistan has done it best, so that peace with India may be given a chance, however without conclusive and court-worthy evidence implicating these organizations, most of whom run extensive humanitarian wings, of orchestrating attacks on civilians, it would be impossible to act against them in a way India wants to see. Show trails will be counter-productive in the campaign to neutralize these elements. Pakistan Army and the Pakistani state has, and will continue to, stop and disrupt activities of these groups in the hopes that a comprehensive and everlasting peace may be achieved. However, it is unhelpful to have unrealistic expectations from what the Pakistani state can do. If the Indian Army, with more than thrice as many troops in Kashmir, can’t check infiltration entirely, then how can the Pakistan Army, do so entirely? There is a sufficiently alienated Muslim population in Kashmir to warrant your concern, according to most neutral observers and even some Indian ones. If India can make the ground in Kashmir fertile for peace, then peace will follow.

Enough of a problem that some recent suggestions from former top spies and diplomats for covert offensive action against Pak in Baluchistan and other areas to force Pak to act against these terror groups start making sense.

If this makes sense to you, then I pity your sense of justice and responsibility. Pakistan has tried its best to stop the flow of fighters from its side of a Disputed Territory to the Indian side. And here we are, with decent and well educated individuals, cheering India’s illegal and covert subversive activities in sovereign Pakistani territory. Activities, that Pakistan say, are already well underway. If this is how India makes ‘grounds for peace’ then peace will remain elusive. India tried the same with its extensive support for terrorists in the sovereign territory of E. Pakistan before, during and after the civil war. That, however, did not deter us from supporting the rebellion that erupted in Occupied Kashmir during the 80s. This course of action, that you think ‘makes sense’, will only drag our countries further down the pit of mutual hate and suspicion.

Such a suggestion amounts to a threat, not a negotiation tactic. Saying that the terror attacks will continue until Kashmir is "resolved" amounts to blackmail or at the very least, coercion. Even if Indian Muslims are involved in 26/11 as facilitators or lookouts, the financing, training, killers and base of operations of these terrorist groups remains Pakistan. And this is the first time in decades that Pakistan has admitted to terrorist groups operating from its soil-only because Kasab was caught alive.

I must say this is incredibly naïve. My words were not even remotely close to anything resembling a threat. A fact is a fact. A problem is a problem. Kashmir is like a road-block on our way to peace. This is a road both our countries have to travel together. If one driver tells another about a road block up ahead, that must be removed in order to proceed, it would be very odd if that driver started accusing his fellow driver of ‘threatening him’. Kashmir is an issue that has poisoned the relationship between both our countries for the better part of a century. In order to move beyond that the issue must be settled in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people who have the universal right of self-determination. Anything short of this will not allow the popular sentiments in both our countries, and in the Disputed Territory of Kashmir, to will for the harmonization of relations between our two states. Lastly, the term ‘coercive diplomacy’ is one that is thrown around by the Indian media to describe India’s policy of using sympathy generated by the Mumbai attacks to disregard, instead of address, Pakistan’s legitimate concerns in regards to the Kashmir issue. The only ‘threat’ to the chances of peace in this region is in India’s misconception that its diplomatic and military muscle can be used to elbow and dismiss international protocol and coerce Pakistan into accepting India’s unilateral, and unrecognized, annexation of Kashmir. If this is your advice to Pakistan, then it is bad advice. Any ‘solution’ agreed upon in disregard to the sentiments of Pakistani and Kashmiri Muslims will only inflame anti-Indian feeling, and will mean the opposite of peace.

If you don’t mind, I will love to address the rest of the posts if, and when, I have time. Thanks.

 

[Kasrkin]

Double post----


double post----

 

[Avinash R]

I can understand how you could be subject to disinformation.

Dont worry i dont live in an military dictatorship to worry about disinformation campaigns which sadly for most pakistanis who dont have internet is the norm. Lots of pakistanis brainwashed into believing ghazwa-e-hind and all such trash that is fed to them on a daily basis.

I must point out, however, that the Pakistani Army has not trained, sponsored or tolerated any of the terrorist factions it is confronting right now. Be that the TTP lead by Betullah Mehsud in FATA or his lieutenant Fazrullah in Swat.

Till recently pakistan even signed peace agreements with such terror groups and allowed them to run mini-states within the boundaries of pakistan and i am being told pakistan does not tolerate such blood thristy bunch. LOL. Lies

(again no Pakistani connection with OBL's organization has ever been credited),

LOL, Osama bin laden ran his campaign against soviets by living in safe houses in pakistan and sending his fighters into afghanistan. Only after the soviet withdrawal did he dare to enter afghanistan. All those years he was under the protection of pakistan establishment. So dont even try to make such claims, they really are not worth arguing over since everyone knows pakistan supports osama. even today he is most likely hiding in pakistan.

Pakistan gives US/NATO considerable logistical facilitation for their operations in Afghanistan, in return for which they provide economic and military aid.

Billions of dollars for such logistics and transport? And i have to believe such claims. What next? UFO just landed in pakistan and took away Osama to mars.

The Pakistani Army is geared for conventional war, and COIN operations require specialized orientations and a lot of resources that Pakistan does not have presently.

What type of COIN operation requires fighters jets, anti-tank missiles and submarines that pakistan is buying using american aid. Last time i checked taliban did not possess any fighter jets, armour or naval ships against which pakistan could use these weapons.

I don't think such reports are credible, or verifiable. Admiral Mullen did claim something like this happened once but Pakistan has dismissed it as American paranoia. Certainly no details or particulars regarding the incident have been made available, and no neutral source has reported or independently confirmed it.

Oh yes, when caught red-handed terrorist wants a neutral source. LOL paksitan used the Haqqani terror network to attack indian embassies, pakistan military officers were found involved in the Mumbai attacks and yet this is dismissed as american paranoia, Well just shows to what lengths some pakistanis go to lie about the support that terrorists receive in pakistan.

And, if Pakistani intelligence reports are to be believed, terrorist operatives sponsored by India find their way to places like FATA, Swat, Balochistan, even Lahore.

LOL, You mean we should believe the group which trains terrorists and promised to get a deal with taliban done recently. How can you believe such two-faced agencies? Oh wait you live in under a military dictatorship. If you dont believe them if you will land in jail.

Lastly, terrorists are terrorists, unless there is proof that their acts have been directed from the Pakistani government, which is something India has claimed but not been able to substantiate so far, I see no reason why the rest of Pakistan should 'apologize' for a crime that they didn't commit.

Go read the 26/11 dossier before spouting "no proof", This old trick wont work any more so think of a new one.

Its like an Indian student studying in the UK rapes a British girl, and the British say that 'India should apologize', would that be fair? I don't think so.

You really mean the pakistani man in UK who was caught with his hand in a child's underwear, didn't you?

Well pakistan should apologize for giving birth to such a dirty bunch of people who no matter wherever they go create trouble.

The Mumbai attacks have been condemned by Pakistan, thus unless it is proved that the Pakistani representative government or institutions were behind it, it would be unfair and racist to try and degrade the whole of Pakistan.

First pakistan sends terrorists to india to kill people and then condemns it when one of the terrorists caught alive (Kasab) is found to be a pakistani national.

If kasab was not caught, as was the original plan, then pakistan would not have condemned it. And check the 26/11 dossier given to pakistan which contains evidence of pakistanis handlers telling terrorists how to kill the women. Go search for channel 4 documentary on mumbai attack and see the videos. Dont spouting lies non-stop and hoping nobody will take notice.

And you should be ashamed that you are still lying through your teeth by claiming pakistan doesn't train,fund and send terrorists to kill innocents. You people have lost basic humanity and would do anything to fill your stomach and enjoy life on the american aid.

And read this before claiming "no proof"
ISI behind the Mumbai terror attacks”
Amir Mir
Saturday 25 July 2009
?ISI behind the Mumbai terror attacks? - Middle East Transparent

LAHORE: The 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks were first conceived on the third floor of the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) headquarters at the Zero Point in the garrison town of Rawalpindi, claims a recently released book “Investigating the Mumbai Conspiracy”, published by the Delhi-based Pentagon Press, adding that the head of the ISI directorate sits on the third floor of the headquarters, overseeing a shadowy empire of spies and jehadis which today poses a greater threat to global security than the al-Qaeda.

The book makes sensational claims – that the Mumbai terror attack was planned and executed by the Pakistan Army and its different agencies including the Inter Services Intelligence and the Special Services Group (SSG) and that the Pakistani Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani was not only in the know of the attack but had planned every detail of the assault with his close confidants in the Pakistan Army’s top leadership. The book claims that the Pakistan army top brass including former President General (retd) Pervez Musharraf had been playing one of the deadliest games in recent history to provoke a disastrous war among the two nuclear armed nations. Containing documents like the Mumbai charge sheet confessional statements of the lone surviving attacker Ajmal Amir Kasab and other details, the book lays bare the tale of the Mumbai attacks and warns of the coming wave of terrorist assaults on India from across the border in Pakistan.

The thrilling book has hit the news stands at a time when Pakistan has handed over a 36-page fresh dossier on its probe into the Mumbai terror attacks to New Delhi, giving an update on the investigations. The dossier confirms what India has been insisting all along – top operatives of Lashkar-e-Toiba were responsible for carrying out the Mumbai terror attacks. This is the first official admission from Pakistan that its citizens were involved in the November 26, 2008 terror attacks. The deadly assault was carried out with by ten heavily armed jehadis who came via ship and boats from Pakistan and held India hostage in Mumbai for over 60 hours.

It was the most audacious terror onslaught since the 9/11 terror attack on the US. Over 180 persons were killed and two nuclear armed nations almost came to war over the attack that shook the world. Who masterminded such an attack? From the evidence gathered by the various intelligence and security agencies, claims the book published by the Pentagon Press [wned by Rajan Arya], it is quite clear that Lashkar-e-Toiba, an al-Qaeda affiliated Lahore based terrorist organisation which trained and dispatched the attackers, do not have the ability to plan and execute such a major armed assault across the seas. It then adds: “Operations like the Mumbai terror attack are never discussed in official meetings [of the ISI]. Such meetings remain unlisted and no minutes are kept. Nor are they planned in a day. Only a handful of the senior officers decide the details, over a period of time, going back and forth over details and more details.

Co-authored by Wilson john, a senior fellow with Observer Research Foundation and Vishwas Kumar, a senior Indian journalist with special interest in crime and terrorism, states that a highly classified operation like Mumbai could not have been shared among more than four people would have known about the plan besides the Chief of Army Staff, who at the time of the planning was President General Pervez Musharraf. “The DG ISI was Lt General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani. Among General Kayani’s close confidants were four Major Generals — Sikander Afzal, Asif Akhtar, Muhammad Mustafa and Tahir Mahmood — all of whom played major roles behind 26/11”.

The book adds: “Akhtar headed ISI’s Operations Wing which handled terrorist groups operating in Jammu & Kashmir and other parts of India. Afzal was the Deputy Director General External and headed all sections which dealt with terrorist groups and India. One of his close confidants was Brigadier Riazullah Khan Chibb, one of the key masterminds of the Mumbai attack. Mustafa was in charge of the Evaluation wing and Tahir Mahmood was General Officer Commanding. Special Services Group (SSG), which sometimes acted as the armed wing of the intelligence agency. Tahir Mahmood, as the Brigade commander of Brigade 62 at Skardu, had launched terrorists from LeT and other Army supported groups across Indian territory to camouflage the movement of regular troops.

The book claims that a whole lot of homework had gone into before the Pakistani jehadi Generals laid out the plan for the Mumbai attacks. “They knew which terrorist group they could rely on to carry out the task. They had notes on previous attacks, the modus operandi used, the local support network and they knew the names of Brigadiers who could control the operation through satellite phones. According to the book, three retired Pakistan Army Brigadiers who had played a key role in the Mumbai terror attacks are Riazullah Khan Chibb, Ijaz Shah and Haji.

“Though names of other Brigadiers and other retired officers have time and again emerged during various investigations - Major Wajahatullah and Colonel Kayani - there are fewer details in open source about their past and present activities. There are, however, some details about Shah and Chibb, largely thanks to the emails which former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto wrote before her assassination in 2007. Both Shah and Chibb had retired from ISI a few years ago and have vast experience in running and handling terrorist groups targeting India. They are also confidants of Musharraf”.

“Generally, no serving officer is given control of terrorist operations as the discovery of such links, run the risk of attracting sanctions from international donors. Terrorist operations are always left to the ‘irregulars’. These are retired officers who are reemployed on contracts for specific missions for the Army which can be easily denied. They operate out of private offices in different locations in Pakistan, have access to weapons and equipment and are paid through slush funds maintained by the Inter Services Intelligence”.

Going by the book, it was a motley crowd of committed trainers, cartographers, communications experts and ideologues who worked on the front end of the mission. “The principal trainers were Zaki-ur-Rehman Lakhvi (alias Abu Wahed Irshad Ahmad); Muzammil (aka Yousuf aka Abu Gurera aka Abu Mohammad); Faheem Ahmad Ansari (alias Abu Jarar). Apart from them, Azzam Cheema, better known as ‘Babaji’, taught recruits how to spot vital installations on the map and uses satellite phones to keep in touch. Another Abu Qahafa, an expert commando trainer who joined the group in 2006, was the chief instructor for the Mumbai attackers. A confidante of Muzammil, he is an expert commando trainer and led the select recruits through the toughest training schedule at LeT’s Maskar Aksa camp. Abu al Qama, an old hand at training new recruits, and was in charge of LeT’s training camp, Ibn-e-Tamia, PoK, which received the Indian recruits across the Kashmir border”.

The book claims that the ideologue behind the operation was Abdur Rahman Makki, who is actually the LeT’s supremo Hafiz Saeed’s cousin and brother-in- law. “He is second only to Saeed in the hierarchy and is known as a firebrand proponent of suicide missions, having penned a highly popular book called Tehrik-e-Islam ke fidayeen dastay (The suicide squads of the Islamic movement). Another relative of Saeed, Ibrahim (aka Ali), a computer expert and fund distributor, put together the assault team. He recruited Faheem Ahmed Ansari (aka Abu Jarar), who trained under Muzammil, and was briefed extensively about the targets subsequently and selected for the attack in November 2008. Ansari was made to go through Google Map and other maps to pinpoint targets like the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus and the Taj Hotel. Ansari drew maps for Muzammil and was later tasked to extensively videotape and photograph the locations after he returned to India. Abu Hamza (aka Ramzan aka Aamir) was one of the trainers at Baitul Mujahideen. Hamza and had a role in previous terror strikes in India like the ISI (Bangalore) attack of 2004. His inputs about making entry, traveling and then exiting the target areas were critical to the success of the Mumbai attack”.

The book claims that while Lakhvi and Abu Qahaf remained in touch with the terrorists from Karachi, it was Muzammil who was coordinating the attack pattern from Lahore, most probably from an ISI Forward Detachment Lahore at 7, Lawrence Road, Lahore. “Muzammil’s satellite phone conversations with the Mumbai attackers after they had set sail from Karachi was intercepted by the US electronic and communication intelligence service, NSA (National Security Agency) and passed on to the Indian intelligence agencies on November 18, 2008, six days before the attack took place. Zarar Shah (aka Abdul Wajid), LeT’s communications expert and urban combat trainer, confessed later of his involvement and said he had stayed with the attackers in Karachi for a few weeks to train them in urban combat skills. US agencies had intercepted his telephone calls to the attackers at the Taj Mahal Palace and tower. Shah, the intercepts showed, was directing the attackers almost minute-to-minute”.

The authors have claimed that once the plan was finalized by the ISI, the LeT supreme Hafiz Saeed was contacted and his two key operational commanders Zaki Lakhvi and Abdur Rehman Makki were briefed about the requirements of the Mumbai operation. “They wanted some two dozen men all fresh recruits, to be trained intensively in commando operations hostage taking and mass killing. These men had to be new; the handlers did not want to risk renegades or freelancers among the attackers. They wanted men who would obey them to the tee. They wanted martyrs. They knew none of them would come back alive. The LeT heads were told they had a year to train these recruits”.

The book states that during the training, the Mumbai attack team was briefed extensively about the movement of ships in the sea. “They were told to use boats similar to Indian fishing boats to avoid suspicion and detection. They knew that fishing boats traveled in groups of 50 to 100 and it would be easy to dodge the India Coast Guard and the Indian Navy if enough precautions were taken during the journey. More than 10000 fishing boats travel across the Arabian Sea in a day”, the book concludes.

 

[Kasrkin]

Dont worry i dont live in an military dictatorship to worry about disinformation campaigns which sadly for most pakistanis who dont have internet is the norm. Lots of pakistanis brainwashed into believing ghazwa-e-hind and all such trash that is fed to them on a daily basis.

I truly hope that your rant here represents an exception, as opposed to the norm, of the discourse in this forum. Pakistanis are not living in a dictatorship presently, and neither are 'most Pakistanis' brainwashed fanatics. It is you who has a woefully ignorant, crudely stereotypical, and apparently racist, perception of Pakistan. It would do you credit not to be influenced by such disinformation, or 'brain-washing', as you term it.

Till recently pakistan even signed peace agreements with such terror groups and allowed them to run mini-states within the boundaries of pakistan and i am being told pakistan does not tolerate such blood thristy bunch. LOL. Lies

Pakistan signed peace deals with Baitullah's group in February of 2005 and 2008. Both these peace deals were made after and proceeded by heavy fighting between the Pakistani military and his group. Now, for almost an year, the Pakistani military has been bombing the TTP constantly, with their logistics cut off and his tribal strong holds surrounded. Yes, it is true that the Pakistan Army was forced to sign a peace deal with this group on two occasions, primarily because of the heavy social and political pressure mounted by these self-proclaimed 'anti-dictatorship' parties that made military operations unsustainable. Containment through these deals was sought, however all this is nothing close to your earlier claim that these groups are being 'trained' by the Pakistan Army. It is very odd indeed that we would be trying to bomb, starve, contain and train them at the same time.

LOL, Osama bin laden ran his campaign against soviets by living in safe houses in pakistan and sending his fighters into afghanistan. Only after the soviet withdrawal did he dare to enter afghanistan. All those years he was under the protection of pakistan establishment. So dont even try to make such claims, they really are not worth arguing over since everyone knows pakistan supports osama. even today he is most likely hiding in pakistan.

I'm astounded that you're ignorant enough to claim that the Pakistani state sheltered OSL. Osama and his organization played unsubstantial parts in the Afghan Jihad. At the time no one knew they name or purpose, which hadn't been developed. Osama was in Afghanistan at the time though, countless books and western journalists have attested to his presence there. Your claim that he was in Pakistan during the whole war is nonsense, therefore I won't bother expecting you to display a source. Your other claim that he was under the Pakistani establishment's protection is even more laughable. Ironically, your own words regarding Pakistanis being brainwashed by hate are coming to mind. If some Pakistanis host unreasoning hate for India, they seem to have mirror versions of themselves in you.

Billions of dollars for such logistics and transport? And i have to believe such claims. What next? UFO just landed in pakistan and took away Osama to mars.

This information is open and widely available to the public. More than half of the 1 Billion US dollars Pakistan receives is actually reimbursement for our operations in the tribal areas. The rest is for COIN related purchases like radios, body armor, helmets, specialized training, NVG devices, transport helicopters. Only a small bit is actually for heavy ticket items like F-16 and Cobra gunship upgrades (enhancing their ability to bomb targets at night and their accuracy, etc) which are all very important in fighting a foe like the Taliban. Also, just because the Taliban don't possess aircraft, armor and artillery, doesn't mean Pakistani forces are not allowed to use it against them either. Lastly, if the Americans help facilitate Pakistan's naval procurements through reasonable prices, that should be no cause for outrage and insecurity because Pakistan and the US are allies. The US considers Pakistan's security to be important, just like Pakistan is helping protect the US's interests in Afghanistan, thus it is only natural that Pakistan expects the US not to block modest sale of military equipment that will help Pakistan maintain a credible deterrence against India's MUCH more formidable military budget and procurement programs, which includes American items.

LOL, You mean we should believe the group which trains terrorists and promised to get a deal with taliban done recently. How can you believe such two-faced agencies? Oh wait you live in under a military dictatorship. If you dont believe them if you will land in jail.

I grow weary of your retarded rants. You're not doing this forum a great service by acting like a mind-scrubbed Pakistan hater. The report in CNN about the Pakistan Army's 'offer' regarding said talks was seriously misreported. The DG ISPR had only said that it is possible when specifically asked, which is a far cry from 'we want to do it for you'.

Go read the 26/11 dossier before spouting "no proof", This old trick wont work any more so think of a new one.

I have read it. Which part said that the Pakistani state was responsible for 9/11 or the Mumbai assault or any terrorist attack against civilians? Could you refer to the page? Or is it possible that you haven't read it yourself?

You really mean the pakistani man in UK who was caught with his hand in a child's underwear, didn't you? Well pakistan should apologize for giving birth to such a dirty bunch of people who no matter wherever they go create trouble.

I feel ashamed replying to your posts. This level of racism has left a sour taste in my mouth. I've made an important point, not all Indians will be angels just like not all Pakistanis are. Indians have committed crimes, in and out of India, but that does not mean that I, like you, will insist that the whole Indian nation should apologize. I'm better than that, and I think most people are too.

And you should be ashamed that you are still lying through your teeth by claiming pakistan doesn't train,fund and send terrorists to kill innocents. You people have lost basic humanity and would do anything to fill your stomach and enjoy life on the american aid.

You've not been able to substantiate any of your vulgar rants. In trying to counter my arguments you've only exposed your crude, shallow, stereotypical core. I wish I could say its been a pleasure, but sadly I can't. Hopefully others here, with more credible character and arguments, will be. Thanks.

 

[Kasrkin]

Double Post

Double Post---Why does this happen every time?