Pakistan Navy in process to buy Type 052D Destroyers from China

[Blademaster]

this above is my only true fear.

the internal demographics is the only attacking force the islamorats have now against india,rest are all holding forces and defensive forces and and increasing focused on preserving their hinterland from being destroyed as they need it as a base of operations.

without the internal demographic forces,their strategy does not have an executing pointman to carry out their plan and they are dead in the water in a strategic sense as they will have only a defensive force.you can't win in the long term without attacking the enemies center of gravity.

The internal demographics are within our control. The nukes in Pakistanis' hands are not and we need to respect that and prepare accordingly.

 

[NutCracker]

$7.5 billion worth scholarships ..

Wrong thread

 

[FalconSlayers]

Wrong thread

Fuck
sorry

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The internal demographics are within our control. The nukes in Pakistanis' hands are not and we need to respect that and prepare accordingly.

They aren't an existential threat but the combo of Indian Muslim % rising slowly and Bangladesh turning more Islamic will continue to fuel their delusions of Ghazwa-e-Hind.

Muslims outnumbering Hindus, turning generationally more radical in a society like India and Bangladesh being a strategic threat to India, all are delusions in themselves for fear mongering.
Current fertility rate of Indian Muslims is lower than Pakistanis, declining swiftly and again, they won't surpass Hindus in population even at TFR above Pakistan. More and more them are being pulled out from ghettos being mainstreamed into urban society.

I take it you haven’t studied the layout of the cities. the population densities, the soil moisture makeup and the wind patterns in India as well as the farming areas under the wind pattern.
Not to mention the location of repositories of knowledge and education and industries etc. just do a simple google search on population areas in India and the locations of each and you will see that 500 nukes can potentially take out 60-80% of its population through combination of direct impact, nuclear fallout, radiation, poisoning of our farmlands, etc. We will have massive famines for the next several decades and Indian society would be irrevocably changed and not for the better.

Yes, even after blindly believing that the parameters of blast radius, fall out due to produced iridium gamma rays, 500 nukes don't pose an existential threat to a country like Pakistan, leave alone India.

Off course I'm not going to account the number of nuclear weapons Pakistan can make, sustain and produce (which you comfortably killed and inflated the sheer numbers to support your unfound insistence of a word you don't know meaning of), ability to launch what number of nukes at a time undetected and getting jammed destroyed, Pakistani nuclear weapons become "aimed" at India (since you haven't even read what I asked you search so far), response time and success rate of Indian ABMs, counter nukes, economic drawbacks in two days, large scale conventional pushes and so forth since you have already oversimplified it to level of a Hindi news anchors who believe that nukes are some kind of Brahamastra or meteors. Most important will of Pakistani government and civilians to sacrifice themselves in an armageddon fighting like robots with no concern of future.

Still, if we assume that entire Indian military machine gets stagnated for no reason and no response, Pakistan gets out of air unlimited load of fissile supplies, nuclear weapons become similar to asteroids and blast large portions of big districts, Pakistani state with all its population leaves their homes for suicide missions and every other impossible bullshit we can assume, then yea, Pak is an existential threat to India.

You certainly were a disappointment LOL. Do you know about "Threat Matrix" of Pakistan, operation Brasstacks, India's NFU vs Pakistan's first use tendency and all other things in Indo Pak episode post 1971? Do you know how the nuclear equations between Soviet Union & EU worked and why USSR was focused on strategic while its enemies on tactical nukes?
You must have heard "Pakistan will use nukes on it's own soil". Did you ever bother to research that it was not a joke but a serious military doctrine of Pakistan?

You certainly haven't neither read about nuclear fall out and military doctrine of Pakistan itself.
Do you know the meaning of "existential threat" in geopolitics?

existential threat basically describes itself. It means that it has the ability to end ones civilization as we know it.

No

A state being existential threat to another is what threatens entire sovereignty of state not just in form of revising its government but absorbing or balkanising or colonizing its entire landmass and victim state being weaker, can't protect itself alone.

You have an existential threat when an enemy country can penetrate your armour, render your military failed and run over your country, temporarily or permanently hold your territory

US, Canada, India, Brazil, Russia, China, Australia, Iran and Saudi Arabia don't have existential threats owing to their large populations, stable and pro national societies able to uproot any occupation, economic and military abilities, their own imperialistic nature at first place of influencing large geographic regions.

No they do not have 130-140 warheads. They have managed to produce 400 warheads by reports that came out 2 years ago. At that rate, I estimate by 500 warheads. That's the max they can go for given their stocks.

It is based on the nuclear reactors that the Chinese built for the Pakistanis and how the reactors breed fissile materials for the warheads. They are going for small tactical nukes to boost up the numbers of the warheads.

See here: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aay5478

Pakistan nuclear weapons capabilityResearch Center for Nuclear Weapons Abolition

長崎大学核兵器廃絶研究センター（RECNA）は世界でも前例のない核兵器廃絶問題の公的な教育研究拠点です。国内外の核兵器情報を蓄積した『市民データベース』を構築し、さまざまな情報を発信しています。

www.recna.nagasaki-u.ac.jp

Based on the amount of fissile materials, we cannot afford to estimate less than what their nuclear materials stockpile allows for. Hence my 400-500 number.

Do you know what numbers will shoot up for other countries if same way is used? A good portion of fissile material can't be utilized for weapons.

When it comes to nukes, I assume the worst and prepare accordingly based on the current capabilities and assets they have.

What experts have assumed is worst. What you have is out of any kind of margin. Being superficial only can misplace priorities, you don't know an iota % what global governments know and have.

 

[Tridev123]

500 nukes aimed at India disagrees with your post.

500 nukes are enough to end Indian society as we know it.

I appreciate your concern.
We should not underestimate the threat from Pakistan.

But it will not be so easy for Pakistan to successfully fire 500 nukes into India.
Firstly the geographical depth of Pakistan is limited. Even the S400 radar with estimated range of 600km should probably cover the entire airspace of Pakistan. We would be able to detect an nuclear missile launch within seconds. Forget about even using our Long Range Tracking Radars with ranges in thousands of kms. It would be an overkill for a small country like Pakistan.

Now for Pakistan to simultaneously launch 500 nuclear tipped missiles against India would be an impossible task without India detecting the preparations. We have enough space assets to cover probably every sq metre of Pakistani territory.
Also don't underestimate our intelligence assets in Pakistan. I believe that we have managed to penetrate the Pak military at various levels. Pak civil society has long been penetrated by Indian intelligence. So advance warning will be available of any nefarious Pak strategy to conduct an debilitating first strike on India.

Once we get the warning signs, will we be sleeping. No, Pakistan will be warned about the devastating Indian response.If still they do launch then, probably on the launch of the first Pak nuclear missile, India would be counter launching an massive strike which would take out Pakistani launch pads and missiles.

And not to forget, Indian's BMD and cruise missile defence network is far, far ahead of Pakistan.

If 500 Pak nukes can cripple India, an large country think what would happen to a much smaller Pakistan when 500 Indian nukes hit it. Probably all of them would be vaporised.

The above scenario laid out is a fictional one.It is rhetoric. Nuclear weapons are too serious an issue and should not be trivialised.

But the point that was being made was that Pakistani Generals should be insane if they really initiate an nuclear war on India.

No need to get too agitated about Pak nukes. I believe that the security establishment in India must have already war gamed various scenarios and devised effective counter strategies.

Pakistan will not succeed in carrying out all its wet dreams.

 

[Blademaster]

Muslims outnumbering Hindus, turning generationally more radical in a society like India and Bangladesh being a strategic threat to India, all are delusions in themselves for fear mongering.
Current fertility rate of Indian Muslims is lower than Pakistanis, declining swiftly and again, they won't surpass Hindus in population even at TFR above Pakistan. More and more them are being pulled out from ghettos being mainstreamed into urban society.

Yes, even after blindly believing that the parameters of blast radius, fall out due to produced iridium gamma rays, 500 nukes don't pose an existential threat to a country like Pakistan, leave alone India.

Off course I'm not going to account the number of nuclear weapons Pakistan can make, sustain and produce (which you comfortably killed and inflated the sheer numbers to support your unfound insistence of a word you don't know meaning of), ability to launch what number of nukes at a time undetected and getting jammed destroyed, Pakistani nuclear weapons become "aimed" at India (since you haven't even read what I asked you search so far), response time and success rate of Indian ABMs, counter nukes, economic drawbacks in two days, large scale conventional pushes and so forth since you have already oversimplified it to level of a Hindi news anchors who believe that nukes are some kind of Brahamastra or meteors. Most important will of Pakistani government and civilians to sacrifice themselves in an armageddon fighting like robots with no concern of future.

Still, if we assume that entire Indian military machine gets stagnated for no reason and no response, Pakistan gets out of air unlimited load of fissile supplies, nuclear weapons become similar to asteroids and blast large portions of big districts, Pakistani state with all its population leaves their homes for suicide missions and every other impossible bullshit we can assume, then yea, Pak is an existential threat to India.

You certainly were a disappointment LOL. Do you know about "Threat Matrix" of Pakistan, operation Brasstacks, India's NFU vs Pakistan's first use tendency and all other things in Indo Pak episode post 1971? Do you know how the nuclear equations between Soviet Union & EU worked and why USSR was focused on strategic while its enemies on tactical nukes?
You must have heard "Pakistan will use nukes on it's own soil". Did you ever bother to research that it was not a joke but a serious military doctrine of Pakistan?

No

A state being existential threat to another is what threatens entire sovereignty of state not just in form of revising its government but absorbing or balkanising or colonizing its entire landmass and victim state being weaker, can't protect itself alone.

You have an existential threat when an enemy country can penetrate your armour, render your military failed and run over your country, temporarily or permanently hold your territory

US, Canada, India, Brazil, Russia, China, Australia, Iran and Saudi Arabia don't have existential threats owing to their large populations, stable and pro national societies able to uproot any occupation, economic and military abilities, their own imperialistic nature at first place of influencing large geographic regions.


Do you know what numbers will shoot up for other countries if same way is used? A good portion of fissile material can't be utilized for weapons.

What experts have assumed is worst. What you have is out of any kind of margin. Being superficial only can misplace priorities, you don't know an iota % what global governments know and have.

Talk about one's head in the clouds. Sorry if I do not share your naivete & blind belief when it comes to Pakistan nuclear program. Take the chances if you want to but I won't. I will assume the worst about Pakistan and prepare accordingly because our families' lives are at stake and we got no one else to turn to when the shit hits the fan.

Look at Israel. See how she deals with her enemies. Say all you want about Israel but Israel does prepare for the worst and act accordingly. See how Israel has made sure that any nation with an ax to grind against Israel do not have the ability to wipe Israel off the map. That is why Israel is hell intent being hostile against a larger enemy Iran and really preparing to take out Iran's nukes. I don't see the same for India and guess what? Now India is the only nation to be bordered by hostile nuke equipped countries because of attitudes like yours that is prevalent among the GoI's thinking. If we had assume the worst and prepare, we could have taken out Pakistani nukes in the very beginning and neutered that threat before it ever became an existential threat.

But no because of your attitude that is being an ostrich in the sand, we have to face the very reality that our options in dealing with Pakistan is extremely limited and we have to tolerate these bullshit terrorist attacks from Pakistan without striking back too hard for fear of escalating this conflict into the nuke threshold.

So I take your entire post above and completely disregard it because you do not wish to face the reality and seek to explain it away and have your reality field where you cling to the idea that you are in control and nothing bad is happening to you.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Sorry if I do not share your naivete & blind belief when it comes to Pakistan nuclear program.

You still have an audacity to say this even after showcasing your blinding incompetency LOL. You can't even enlist here nuclear chain reactions of various materials, amount of energy released and possible extent of damage without googling it.

If "what if" with being devoid of any kind of scientific/statistical/logical/empirical/analytical way, I can't even argue "what if Unicorns live in my shoes".

You haven't presented a single valid argument to support your case, nor it seems you have one. You are not going for worst or even a hypothetical scenario, you are just imagining it straight away. You are simply unqualified for the topic you are ranting on.

Case closed.

 

[Blademaster]

You still have an audacity to say this even after showcasing your blinding incompetency LOL. You can't even enlist here nuclear chain reactions of various materials, amount of energy released and possible extent of damage without googling it.

If "what if" with being devoid of any kind of scientific/statistical/logical/empirical/analytical way, I can't even argue "what if Unicorns live in my shoes".

You haven't presented a single valid argument to support your case, nor it seems you have one. You are not going for worst or even a hypothetical scenario, you are just imagining it straight away. You are simply unqualified for the topic you are ranting on.

Case closed.

Neither have you. Speak for yourself. Your prior post was like "Bro, we got this, Trust us. we are experts" and proceeded to conclude without presenting any data and scientific evidence. And now you want me to do the same thing that you didn't do. Sorry, your rant above is not going to change my mind.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Neither have you. Speak for yourself. Your prior post was like "Bro, we got this, Trust us. we are experts" and proceeded to conclude without presenting any data and scientific evidence.

LOL, you are blind or what? Did you even bother to google after my post? Sorry for not responding on time as didn't even visit this thread since then.

Muslims outnumbering Hindus, turning generationally more radical in a society like India and Bangladesh being a strategic threat to India, all are delusions in themselves for fear mongering.
Current fertility rate of Indian Muslims is lower than Pakistanis, declining swiftly and again, they won't surpass Hindus in population even at TFR above Pakistan. More and more them are being pulled out from ghettos being mainstreamed into urban society.

Yes, even after blindly believing that the parameters of blast radius, fall out due to produced iridium gamma rays, 500 nukes don't pose an existential threat to a country like Pakistan, leave alone India.

Off course I'm not going to account the number of nuclear weapons Pakistan can make, sustain and produce (which you comfortably killed and inflated the sheer numbers to support your unfound insistence of a word you don't know meaning of), ability to launch what number of nukes at a time undetected and getting jammed destroyed, Pakistani nuclear weapons become "aimed" at India (since you haven't even read what I asked you search so far), response time and success rate of Indian ABMs, counter nukes, economic drawbacks in two days, large scale conventional pushes and so forth since you have already oversimplified it to level of a Hindi news anchors who believe that nukes are some kind of Brahamastra or meteors. Most important will of Pakistani government and civilians to sacrifice themselves in an armageddon fighting like robots with no concern of future.

Still, if we assume that entire Indian military machine gets stagnated for no reason and no response, Pakistan gets out of air unlimited load of fissile supplies, nuclear weapons become similar to asteroids and blast large portions of big districts, Pakistani state with all its population leaves their homes for suicide missions and every other impossible bullshit we can assume, then yea, Pak is an existential threat to India.

You certainly were a disappointment LOL. Do you know about "Threat Matrix" of Pakistan, operation Brasstacks, India's NFU vs Pakistan's first use tendency and all other things in Indo Pak episode post 1971? Do you know how the nuclear equations between Soviet Union & EU worked and why USSR was focused on strategic while its enemies on tactical nukes?
You must have heard "Pakistan will use nukes on it's own soil". Did you ever bother to research that it was not a joke but a serious military doctrine of Pakistan?

No

A state being existential threat to another is what threatens entire sovereignty of state not just in form of revising its government but absorbing or balkanising or colonizing its entire landmass and victim state being weaker, can't protect itself alone.

You have an existential threat when an enemy country can penetrate your armour, render your military failed and run over your country, temporarily or permanently hold your territory

US, Canada, India, Brazil, Russia, China, Australia, Iran and Saudi Arabia don't have existential threats owing to their large populations, stable and pro national societies able to uproot any occupation, economic and military abilities, their own imperialistic nature at first place of influencing large geographic regions.


Do you know what numbers will shoot up for other countries if same way is used? A good portion of fissile material can't be utilized for weapons.

What experts have assumed is worst. What you have is out of any kind of margin. Being superficial only can misplace priorities, you don't know an iota % what global governments know and have.

TFR of Muslims, population growth rate vis a vis other groups, generational tendencies and commitments towards religion were my basis of response of growth of Muslims, the reasons of 1971 victory, the requirements of a military and gap between forces of two countries to let one military expedite into other territory, Pakistani adoption and perception of Indian threat, Pakistan's nuclear policy against India and its reasons and comparison with Europe's nuclear policy against Soviet Union, there is more than enough explanation for someone who is supposed to be a defence enthusiast.

India's enormous geographical, population and economic size with industrial capacities in 1970s which magnified further in 21st century posed an existential threat to the state of Pakistan that India could again invade and annex a large chunk of Pakistani territory, or occupy it or deem its government useless which was an existential threat for Pakistan. India hereby was an existential threat to Pakistan while Pakistan was a regional hindrance to India with least impact beyond India's northwestern borders.
To neutralise the existential threat posed by Indian military which would be expediting inside cities of Pakistan in case of any new major war like 1971, Pakistan moved towards tactical nuclear weapons to neutralise large fleets/battalions of Indian military which otherwise couldn't be challenged by Pakistani conventional forces. Indian nuclear weapons meanwhile remained strategic thermonuclear city busting bombs which would be used to end the war in case it overstretches and gets out of Indian hands.

The Sundarji Doctrine, Cold Start Doctrine and IBG doctrine of India today are all about neutralizing Pakistani tactical nuclear doctrines timely.
So no, Pakistan doesn't have nukes pointed towards India. Pakistani nukes weren't ever meant to hit Indian cities, they were meant for Indian military. These are recorded doctrines of India & Pakistan and military actions of both countries have always stuck along these lines.



You know, I usually don't poke my nose in topics, I don't know about. So sorry, it was my bad to deem to you intelligent enough to have been through some data than acting like idiots.

It also explains why you are acting stupid here too. You straight away make bullshit claims out of hot air and scream "respect-respect", "no freedom of speech and your tone bad" when someone calls you out. It's your nature. So, when it comes to "presenting" data, I need to literally spoonfeed you by posting that here.

I'm not sure whether you will agree to that, call it a "fabricated lie". I don't belong to the lot of MSM and friends groups, I subscribe to peer reviewed journals and books.

And now you want me to do the same thing that you didn't do. Sorry, your rant above is not going to change my mind.

I certainly can't wake up anyone who is pretending to sleep. A person who doesn't know an iota about atomic structure, can't be elaborated about working of a nuclear bomb. So given that you haven't done your homework, nor you are willing to learn anything, you can't be helped.

It's all about your beliefs and rather more about your internet presence where you consider being contradicted as "insulted" and your only aim is to "pretend the you win the argument".
You are a difficult case who can't be helped at all. You called me "naive" and a person who "lives into his beliefs" LOL while you have always displayed a half baked opinion on things you never studied on or have written on much or even have read on much.

Case closed.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

LOL, you are blind or what? Did you even bother to google after my post? Sorry for not responding on time as didn't even visit this thread since then.


TFR of Muslims, population growth rate vis a vis other groups, generational tendencies and commitments towards religion were my basis of response of growth of Muslims, the reasons of 1971 victory, the requirements of a military and gap between forces of two countries to let one military expedite into other territory, Pakistani adoption and perception of Indian threat, Pakistan's nuclear policy against India and its reasons and comparison with Europe's nuclear policy against Soviet Union, there is more than enough explanation for someone who is supposed to be a defence enthusiast.

India's enormous geographical, population and economic size with industrial capacities in 1970s which magnified further in 21st century posed an existential threat to the state of Pakistan that India could again invade and annex a large chunk of Pakistani territory, or occupy it or deem its government useless which was an existential threat for Pakistan. India hereby was an existential threat to Pakistan while Pakistan was a regional hindrance to India with least impact beyond India's northwestern borders.
To neutralise the existential threat posed by Indian military which would be expediting inside cities of Pakistan in case of any new major war like 1971, Pakistan moved towards tactical nuclear weapons to neutralise large fleets/battalions of Indian military which otherwise couldn't be challenged by Pakistani conventional forces. Indian nuclear weapons meanwhile remained strategic thermonuclear city busting bombs which would be used to end the war in case it overstretches and gets out of Indian hands.

The Sundarji Doctrine, Cold Start Doctrine and IBG doctrine of India today are all about neutralizing Pakistani tactical nuclear doctrines timely.
So no, Pakistan doesn't have nukes pointed towards India. Pakistani nukes weren't ever meant to hit Indian cities, they were meant for Indian military. These are recorded doctrines of India & Pakistan and military actions of both countries have always stuck along these lines.



You know, I usually don't poke my nose in topics, I don't know about. So sorry, it was my bad to deem to you intelligent enough to have been through some data than acting like idiots.

It also explains why you are acting stupid here too. You straight away make bullshit claims out of hot air and scream "respect-respect", "no freedom of speech and your tone bad" when someone calls you out. It's your nature. So, when it comes to "presenting" data, I need to literally spoonfeed you by posting that here.

I'm not sure whether you will agree to that, call it a "fabricated lie". I don't belong to the lot of MSM and friends groups, I subscribe to peer reviewed journals and books.

I certainly can't wake up anyone who is pretending to sleep. A person who doesn't know an iota about atomic structure, can't be elaborated about working of a nuclear bomb. So given that you haven't done your homework, nor you are willing to learn anything, you can't be helped.

It's all about your beliefs and rather more about your internet presence where you consider being contradicted as "insulted" and your only aim is to "pretend the you win the argument".
You are a difficult case who can't be helped at all. You called me "naive" and a person who "lives into his beliefs" LOL while you have always displayed a half baked opinion on things you never studied on or have written on much or even have read on much.

Case closed.

i dont believe the tfr argument of the muslim threat being null is valid.

on the ground i don't see that working out as planned. we need a wholesale solution to the muzzie problem like china.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

i dont believe the tfr argument of the muslim threat being null is valid.

on the ground i don't see that working out as planned. we need a wholesale solution to the muzzie problem like china.

Given that you don't have the superpowers to see the "whole ground", you can't just reject it. It's fine if you wish to defy the data but for that, you should have alternative data. That is the basic method of argument at first place.

There are not few Muslim families in India just from your locality but 200 million Muslims in India. Off course they have rich poor divide and all them don't live the same way. What the data gives you is an average.