Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

tarunraju

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This looks to be more of a Song/Yuan-class lease than a nuke submarine sale/lease. Pakistan doesn't need nuclear-propulsion to reach our east coast, and China won't give away a $5-billion boat, even for lease or soft-loan. Pak buying it is out of question.
 
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Kunal Biswas

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PN is fearing of IN 2 N-subs, 1 will definatly be aimed at it. rest may be in IOR.
as for PN's strategies, PN's subs like agusta-90 were capable of destroying IN's carrier,
but now after IN n-subs the PN's subs superiority or edge over IN is gone, those pn agusta cant stand infront of INS Arihant anymore, so they may be trying for N-subs to get back their edge.
PN Agusta -90s ( 3 ) are for IN Kilo 877EKM class ( 7 ) and Agusta-70 ( 2 ) for IN HDW 209 class ( 4 )..
PN Submarines were always out numbered by IN subs so their is no PN Submarine superiority..
 

BunBunCake

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@LETHALFORCE,
PN may get a nuclear sub on lease, but its very possible not now as their eco is somehow standing, As a fact in 1971 war when PN send PNS Ghazi and positioned itself around Vishakapatnam, In modern day new Ghazi ( Supposedly future PN-Han class ) don't need to cross Arabian sea but bypass it and wait in Indian Ocean for command signal ( Theoretically ), So PN leasing Nuclear attack sub in future is possible..
Leasing a Nuclear Submarine isn't cheap. India paid $2 Billion for the 10 year lease. Can Pakistan afford that? That's 33% of their Military budget for a year.
 

DaRk WaVe

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You people are only assuming that Pakistan will get Nuclear Sub, at present there's no evidence that Pakistan is even thinking about Nuclear Submarine & ground realities are they we cannot afford it, Diesel Electric(specially U-214s) can do the job for PN & PN has no plans to become a blue water navy, at most Pakistan will get Yuan or Song Class
 

Kunal Biswas

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China won't give away a $5-billion boat, even for lease or soft-loan. Pak buying it is out of question.
China may give it old Nuke subs, It will save money and a good way of income, Han class are outdated Nuclear subs, 093&095 are modern and immune to most of the ASW sensors..

Leasing a Nuclear Submarine isn't cheap. India paid $2 Billion for the 10 year lease. Can Pakistan afford that? That's 33% of their Military budget for a year.
I cant say the same thing abt Chinese Nuclear sub..


Whatever Nuclear sub may be possible in future for PN, But for Now Its very possiable of Yuan or Song Class..
 
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tarunraju

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Leasing a Nuclear Submarine isn't cheap. India paid $2 Billion for the 10 year lease. Can Pakistan afford that? That's 33% of their Military budget for a year.
Assuming PLAN's lease is the same ($2 billion for 10 years), Pakistan very much can afford $200 million per year (which is 3.3% of their military budget), however the issue is whether China wants to risk an SSN with Pakistan, which would be vulnerable to India's anti-sub capabilities (putting almost billions-worth hardware at risk).
 
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China may give it old Nuke subs, It will save money and a good way of income, Han class are outdated Nuclear subs, 093&095 are modern and immune to most of the ASW sensors..



I cant say the same thing abt Chinese Nuclear sub..


Whatever Nuclear sub may be possible in future for PN, But for Now Its very possiable of Yuan or Song Class..
There are 2 093 subs believed to be completed, I think the Chinese need it more for themselves then being generous enough to gift their most modern sub to Pakistan. The Chinese are not giving Pak al-31 engines which cost a couple of million what makes people think China will be generous and give away something worth Billions??
 

Kunal Biswas

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we can Intercept it as we have more powerful anti-submarine warfare planes then in 1971.
Il-38 and P-8I can do this work a lot easier.
Indeed but in WAR kind of situation, PAF will give much need Air-superiority near Karachi, once the sub leaves Karachi its impossible to detect it by P-8I or IL-38SD the sub will bypass Arabian sea and wait in Indian ocean, in this kind of situation only CV based ASW helo and Submarine can detect and destroy enemy sub..

P8I and IL-38SD can only patrol coastal waters, On high seas its role become limited by the range..
 

Kunal Biswas

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Assuming PLAN's lease is the same ($2 billion for 10 years), Pakistan very much can afford $200 million per year (which is 3.3% of their military budget), however the issue is whether China wants to risk an SSN with Pakistan, which would be vulnerable to India's anti-sub capabilities (putting almost billions-worth hardware at risk).
Well when their will be new generation nuclear subs replace the old ones, Then their are two choice..
1 Trash them.
2 Lease them and have a good amount of money in return.

Russian did the same during 90s, it proved very good for country`s economy..
In Future, PN might have and that's a sure possibility..

There are 2 093 subs believed to be completed, I think the Chinese need it more for themselves then being generous enough to gift their most modern sub to Pakistan.
I was not talking about 093 but Old type 091 Han class.
 

Agantrope

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My Damn im derailing!!!!

ok, back to topic, PN with Chinese nukes will also show the Chinese capability in the Nuke subs
 
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nrj

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So we can establish the same analogy with the Chinese Nuke sub to pak in future....
 
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StealthSniper

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The sad news is that India is not going fast enough in procuring it's second line of submarines. I don't think Pakistan is a threat yet, but Pakistan is getting stronger on the submarine front and we need to get going on procuring our second line and maybe even third line of subs. I don't care from what country Pakistan is getting subs from, every sub is a threat and it needs to be dealt with accordingly.
 
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The sad news is that India is not going fast enough in procuring it's second line of submarines. I don't think Pakistan is a threat yet, but Pakistan is getting stronger on the submarine front and we need to get going on procuring our second line and maybe even third line of subs. I don't care from what country Pakistan is getting subs from, every sub is a threat and it needs to be dealt with accordingly.
The problem is the scorpene deal, we need to dump that whole deal and possibly negotiate a new deal with the swedes for A26's or with the Germans for one of their subs.
 

anoop_mig25

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The sad news is that India is not going fast enough in procuring it's second line of submarines. I don't think Pakistan is a threat yet, but Pakistan is getting stronger on the submarine front and we need to get going on procuring our second line and maybe even third line of subs. I don't care from what country Pakistan is getting subs from, every sub is a threat and it needs to be dealt with accordingly.
i agree with u . Pakistan is slowly and steadily trying to reduce conventional capability against india while our policy makers are sleeping and when they woke up there is buying from foreign countries with at that times jack up their prices . Perfect eg is night vision our army is only 20% night visible(i donot what it means i read it somewhere) while pakistan is 80% and china is 100% and now how we are going to win war.are our men going to fight in days only? this thinking that future indo-pak full scale war is not possible by our policy maker is going to cost one day
 

Kunal Biswas

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i agree with u . Pakistan is slowly and steadily trying to reduce conventional capability against india while our policy makers are sleeping and when they woke up there is buying from foreign countries with at that times jack up their prices . Perfect eg is night vision our army is only 20% night visible(i donot what it means i read it somewhere) while pakistan is 80% and china is 100% and now how we are going to win war.are our men going to fight in days only? this thinking that future indo-pak full scale war is not possible by our policy maker is going to cost one day
The problem is the scorpene deal, we need to dump that whole deal and possibly negotiate a new deal with the swedes for A26's or with the Germans for one of their subs.
The sad news is that India is not going fast enough in procuring it's second line of submarines. I don't think Pakistan is a threat yet, but Pakistan is getting stronger on the submarine front and we need to get going on procuring our second line and maybe even third line of subs. I don't care from what country Pakistan is getting subs from, every sub is a threat and it needs to be dealt with accordingly.
PN Augusta -90s ( 3 ) are for IN Kilo 877EKM class ( 7 ) and Augusta-70 ( 2 ) for IN HDW 209 class ( 4 )..
PN Submarines were always out numbered by IN subs so their is no PN Submarine superiority..

With Additional 3 Chinese subs in the region that would be around in next 5 years, By then Indian will have scorpions operational, therefore PN will ultimately have 8 submarine include 3 Chinese and Augusta-70/90, the question is how effective will be 8 sub against the force of 13 subs in Arabian Sea..

1> What kind of counter measure will be taken to avoid the subs to reach Indian ocean?
2> Do India will have enough P-8I & IL-38 to detect enemy sub activity in both bay of Bengal, Arabian sea and Andaman s?
 
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PN Agusta -90s ( 3 ) are for IN Kilo 877EKM class ( 7 ) and Agusta-70 ( 2 ) for IN HDW 209 class ( 4 )..
PN Submarines were always out numbered by IN subs so their is no PN Submarine superiority..

With Additional 3 chinease subs in the reagion that would be around in next 5 years, By then Indian will have scorpins operational, therfore PN will ultimately have 8 submarine include 3 Chinese and Augsta-70/90, the question is how effective will be 8 sub against the force of 13 subs in Arabian Sea..

1> What kind of counter measure will be taken to aviod the subs to reach Indian ocean?
2> Do India will have enough P-8I & IL-38 to detect enemy sub activity in both bay of Bengal, Arabian sea and Andamans?
we should focus on tracking these subs;we possibly may have some satellites that are being used in this role??

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php/10842-Chinese-subs-irk-US-Think-Tanks/page2

Scorpenes are not expected until 2015.

http://abclive.in/abclive_national/india_scorpene_submarine.html

http://www.aol.in/news-story/delay-in-scorpene-submarines-will-impact-force-levels-antony/885071
 
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Rahul Singh

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Pakistan has always depended on submarine for countering IN mighty force and this action by pakistan is nothing other than finding cheap solution to bolster that capability by increasing numbers by buying cheap submarine from PRC. As LF said, to counter this threat or better say increased challenge, IN only need to improve their submarine detection and tracking capability and rest of the job will be done easily by P-8I, new MR-MPA and destroyers.

On speculations about PN going for nuclear submarine. Well i don't see it happening simply because PN will not spend huge chunk from her tight budget for something without which they can perform their assigned role. However, if this speculation true, then PN will have to dump at least 3 submarines for 1 nuke submarine from her fleet and with that, role of PN submarine force will change to mere nuclear weapon delivery force(assuming that they will get SLBM) from age old primary role which was to present challenge to IN carriers.
 

Kunal Biswas

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India launched Radar Imaging Satellite RISAT-2 on April 20. Most of the media reported RISAT-2 as a spy satellite,
1.The satellite is reported to be a replica of Israeli TECSAR satellite launched by Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) in January this year.
2.In shallow waters, imagery can be used to study the sea bottom topography. Altimeters using SAR can also be used for ocean floor mapping. RISAT2_deployed
Interesting,
I hope we have enough to monitor all three seas..


Regarding Scorpion, Its sad but still we have enough Subs to outnumber them..
Therefore the number should goes....

8 PN subs against 10 IN subs in Arabian sea..
 

bhramos

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Type 039 submarine ( Song class)


half or some part of this video is of USN subs.............
 
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sathya

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Pakistan begins talks with China for procurement of 7 submarine
BY: JANES

China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan buying at least three Chinese submarines.

Speaking to Jane's on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for up to three or four boats, but declined to specify the types or terms under discussion.
China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to Jane's on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.
 

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