Pakistan Army attacks Indian Jawans near LoC

What should be India's response ?

  • Military Action

    Votes: 117 88.6%
  • Diplomatic Solution & formal protest

    Votes: 7 5.3%
  • Continue Peace Process

    Votes: 5 3.8%
  • Can`t Say

    Votes: 3 2.3%

  • Total voters
    132

rock127

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That's the point. It forces peace. India simply cannot invade Pakistan.
India simply dont need to invade Pak.Our Army does not run on Paki boogyman.

Now how come a Chinese so intrested in Pakis stuff? :hmm:
 

Novice

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Of course it can continue forever. China is a part of the global corporate structure now--the system of money and power that keeps the world turning. We run the UK telecom network. We prop up Japan's corporate sector. We prop up Australia's resource extraction and indirectly support over 20% of their GDP. We've bought out 2/3rds of the people at the Asia desk of the US State Department with directorships and consultancies, and we're expanding into ex-CIA and ex-Pentagon officials too. We don't traffic in soft, mushy perceptions and Gandhi posters. We traffic in influence, real influence, the kind that makes every American president since Clinton turn soft on us once they get into the White House.
>> Refutable claim

China's U.S. Debt Holdings Aren't Threat, Pentagon Says
By Tony Capaccio & Daniel Kruger - Sep 11, 2012 7:00 AM GMT+0530

China's holdings of more than $1 trillion in U.S. debt and the prospect that it might "suddenly and significantly" withdraw funds don't pose a national security threat, according to a first-ever Pentagon assessment.

"China has few attractive options for investing the bulk of its large foreign exchange holdings out of U.S. Treasury securities," given their extent, according to the report dated July 20 and obtained by Bloomberg News.
Attachment: Pentagon China Report

China is the second-largest holder of U.S. government debt after the Federal Reserve. Acting at the direction of Congress, the Defense Department studied the rationale behind the investments and whether "the aggressive option of a large sell- off" would give China leverage in a political or military crisis. China's debt holdings have been cited as a sign of U.S. vulnerability by Republicans in this year's election campaign.

"Does the America we want borrow a trillion dollars from China? No," Mitt Romney said Aug. 30 in accepting the presidential nomination at the Republican convention in Tampa, Florida.

China's holdings of U.S. government securities were $1.164 trillion as of June, according to Treasury Department data released Aug. 15. China has increased its holdings this year, as the American economy stalled and Europe's sovereign-debt crisis deepened.
'Financial Weapon'

Chinese commentators have occasionally suggested using the debt holdings to pressure the U.S. on its pro-Taiwan policies. A senior People's Daily editor wrote in an August 2011 editorial that "now is the time for China to use its 'financial weapon' to teach the U.S. a lesson if it moves forward" with additional arms sales to the island democracy, according to the Pentagon report.

"Attempting to use U.S. Treasury securities as a coercive tool would have limited effect and likely would do more harm to China than to the United States," according to the report, which was sent to congressional committees by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. "As the threat is not credible and the effect would be limited even if carried out, it does not offer China deterrence options" in a diplomatic, economic or military situation, the Pentagon found.

The Pentagon's conclusions were backed by analysts such as David Ader, head of U.S. government bond strategy at CRT Capital Group LLC in Stamford, Connecticut.

The Chinese "are very astute money managers and they would recognize that the damage of doing that would have negative consequences for them and for global trade, which is already in a difficult place," Ader said in an interview.
'Side Issue'

While the total size of the U.S. debt "and trend of the debt is a national security risk," China's holdings "are a side issue," Derek Scissors, a China analyst for the Heritage Foundation in Washington, said in an e-mail.

Still, "if deterrence breaks down and a conflict starts, China is going to attack the U.S. bond market and accept the ensuing financial losses," he said.

The Pentagon consulted with the Treasury and State departments and the Director of National Intelligence in compiling the report, said Pentagon spokeswoman Major Catherine Wilkinson.

"Chinese officials often act as if they are doing the U.S. a big favor by buying U.S. debt, and sometimes officials suggest that this policy could be easily changed to punish the United States," Wayne Morrison, an Asia trade specialist with the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.

"In fact, the Chinese are acting out of their own self- interest," Morrison said in an e-mail. "They have to buy U.S. dollar assets as long as they are intervening in currency markets to hold down the value of the RMB against the dollar," he said, referring to China's currency, the renminbi.
China Selling

China decreased its Treasury holdings last year with little apparent impact in the market, Treasury data show. The world's most populous country reduced its position in Treasuries in the first yearly decline since Bloomberg began tracking the data in 2001.

The holdings declined 0.7 percent, or by $8.2 billion, to $1.15 trillion last year. The decline was much steeper in the second half of the year when China's stake plunged 12 percent, or by $163 billion, from an all-time high of $1.31 trillion in July 2011, the data show.

During that period, 10-year Treasuries rallied as the U.S. credit rating was reduced by Standard & Poor's to AA+ from AAA and the European sovereign debt crisis worsened, pushing the yield to 1.88 percent from 2.80 percent.

Foreign investors held 50.3 percent of the $10.52 trillion in outstanding Treasuries as of June, government data show. That's down from April 2008, when they reached 55.7 percent of the $4.64 trillion in U.S. marketable debt.
Shelby, Clinton

Both Democrats and Republicans have raised concerns in the past about the risks of China and other countries holding a large proportion of U.S. Treasury debt.

Senator Richard Shelby, an Alabama Republican, said in a February 2006 interview that China at some point may be able to influence U.S. economic policy because of its holdings. "What if they dumped their bonds all at once?" he said.

When Democratic Senator Hillary Clinton of New York, who is now Secretary of State, was running for president in 2007, she wrote Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke to say the amount of U.S. debt held by investors abroad meant "we can too easily be held hostage to the economic decisions being made in Beijing, Shanghai and Tokyo."
Short-Term Disruptions

A sudden and large reduction of China's holdings "could cause short-term" secondary market disruptions and interest- rate increases for Treasury debt issues, according to the Pentagon report.

It also "would impose significant costs on China," as the supply of U.S. Treasuries increased and the value of China's holdings fell sharply, the Pentagon found.

Ira Jersey, an interest-rate strategist at Credit Suisse Group AG in New York, one of 21 primary dealers that trade directly with the Fed, said other buyers would step in if China eliminated or reduced its U.S. holdings.

"In an environment like today, if Treasuries were to sell off 50 basis points in the 10-year sector, you'd see a lot of demand from domestic and non-traditional foreign investors, including other central banks, which would step in to purchase at lower prices and somewhat higher yields," Jersey said. A basis point is 0.01 percentage point.

The Pentagon said in its report that the Fed also is "fully capable of purchasing U.S. Treasuries dumped" by China and "reducing the economic impact."

A Chinese move to "suddenly and significantly" reduce its Treasury holdings "would fundamentally change the international finance and business community's perception of China as a reliable and respected economic and financial partner," the Pentagon said.

Source: China's U.S. Debt Holdings Aren't Threat, Pentagon Says - Bloomberg



China isn't out to be liked. China doesn't give a shit. We're here to do business, not act cute. And that's why China is three times the size of India, and keeps growing faster.
>> Reprehensible, Irresponsible and Jingoistic attitude

Did we buy the Tu22M supply line? Has there been a single confirmation from China, or are you still relying on those same Russian sources that said for 9 months that China would buy Su-35s?

PLA to build strategic bomber after Tu-22M, says US magazine

Staff Reporter 2013-01-09 15:37 (GMT+8)

Tu-22M supersonic bombers were introduced in the early 1970s and are still in service. (Internet photo)

Tu-22M supersonic bombers were introduced in the early 1970s and are still in service. (Internet photo)

China will build 36 H-10 strategic bombers to counter the Obama administration's "Asia Pivot" policy, reports the US-based Aviation International News.

The magazine said the aircraft will be designed after the Russian-built Tu-22M3 supersonic bomber, originally produced by the Soviet Union during the Cold War to counter US aircraft carriers and were also capable of carrying out a nuclear attack on the United States. A contract worth US$1.5 billion has been signed under which China will purchase the entire production line for the Tu-22, according to the Japanese newspaper Sankei Shimbun.

With a range of 6,800 kilometers, Tu-22M3 aircraft taking off from bases in China would be able to reach targets within the Pacific Second Island Chain.

Unlike ballistic missiles, a bomber like the Tu-22M3 would be able to attack moving targets such as ships with precision. The H-10 will replace the H-6 currently in service with the PLA Air Force and Navy.

The Chinese government has not confirmed the story, and Colonel Du Wenlong from the Chinese Academy of Military Sciences said the aircraft is unlikely to enter service with the PLA. First, the design of the Tu-22M3 is old compared to American strategic bombers such as the B-1 and B-2. Second, the aircraft would be unable to strike at US aircraft carriers as it would be detected by E-2 early warning aircraft while still 400 kilometers from the target.

References:

Du Wenlong  杜文龍

Source: PLA to build strategic bomber after Tu-22M, says US magazine|Politics|News|WantChinaTimes.com



Keep hoping. Indians have had this sick, jealous hope that the Chinese economy will sputter for over a decade now, but the hope keeps going nowhere.
China's aging population poses problems for economy and tradition

By Benjamin Cost

old-peeps.jpg We've all heard the expression "the old gives way to the new," but in China, quite the opposite is taking place with a fast-dwindling number of young people and an elderly population that continues to rise. Experts cite increased life expectancy and low birth rates as principal factors in the phenomenon. The Guardian reports:

Life expectancy has soared in China, while fertility has plummeted due to strict birth control policies. In 2009 there were 167 million over-60s, about an eighth of the population. By 2050 there will be 480 million, while the number of young people will have fallen. "It's a timebomb," warned Wang Feng of the Brookings-Tsinghua Centre for Public Policy in Beijing.

And despite China's longstanding tradition of filial piety, there may not be enough young people nor facilities to care for the elderly in the future. In addition to China's view of old-age homes as taboo, China's care facilities can only accommodate around 1.6% of the people over 60, almost 7% less than the global average.

Besides the issue of looking after China's elderly, the booming economy may experience a tumble brought on by an uncommonly high number of working-age people -- ironically the same factor that spurred the economic boom in the first place. By 2030, after this working sector has aged, there will be 2 working age people for every citizen over 60 compared to 6 for every 60-and-up 12 years ago.

Ma Jiantang, head of the National Bureau of Statistics, stated that the rising elderly population factored heavily in China's decision to lower its GDP growth goal to 7.5% last week, the lowest in seven years.

But where there are woes in China's age distribution problem, there are also opportunities (and not just for youths, who's chances of making it into the CBA might increase a hundredfold because all their competition will be on oxygen). People's Daily writes:

This century's leading countries will be those that empower their aging populations to be active participants in economic growth, rather than treating them as dependent and disabled. This has been called "active aging".

Chinese policy might even foment this "active aging" by raising the minimum age for retirement as currently, only 20% of Chinese women still work by their mid-50s. China will also need to confront the alarmingly low birth rate, which currently hovers below the 2.1 rate required to keep the population afloat.

Overall, filial piety values, the stigma of old age homes, and birth control laws, along with other Chinese long-held views and policies will need to shift to fight off this looming age-pocalypse.

Source: China's aging population poses problems for economy and tradition: Shanghaiist


Why should I be forced to respond to a movie in another language?
The only take away for you from this interview is that we ignored the warnings and clues in the name of peace and were caught off guard, ill prepared, and surprised. No army big or small looses a battle in modern time. Worst case there are a lot of martyrs and ultimately it's the diplomacy and rest of world roped in to pacify. Unfortunately for us, you declared ceasefire and hence there's no credible reasoning or explanation to advocate your claim.
 

cloud_9

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So its another thuss pataka :rofl: That's why no one takes GoI seriously after all the tough talking looks like the Singhs @ 7, Race Course Road were just passing some hot air.....


I don't really understand this Pappi Gaffi Slap (loop) Diplomacy :tsk:
 

Ray

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Don't hold your breath, when it comes, it will be a typhoon!
 

DEJAVU

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Don't hold your breath, when it comes, it will be a typhoon!
india dont have any typhoons, may be they will get in 2018 so you will wait for another 5 years. Come on.
Dont waste our time.
 

Agnostic Muslim

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X-Posting my comments from elsewhere:

The Hindu : News / National : DGMOs agree to cool tempers along LoC

The spin being given to the de-escalation in some parts of the Indian media is that somehow this constitutes a 'retreat by Pakistan'. However, when one considers the war-mongering hysteria and calls for blood, war and '10 heads' by many in India, no rational individual can look at this and consider it any kind of 'retreat by Pakistan'.

The fact is that India overreacted to events, elements in the Indian military establishment and media conspired to exaggerate events and drum up hate and hysteria against Pakistan, and when people finally caught their breath, they realized how stupid the entire thing was and that India would now have to find some sort of 'face-saving' solution in order to back-down.
 

Ray

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india dont have any typhoons, may be they will get in 2018 so you will wait for another 5 years. Come on.
Dont waste our time.
No get typhoon?

So God is on India's side till 2018?

Great.

Soothsayer?
 

Agnostic Muslim

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There are military options beyond the realms of war.

There are areas where one can interdict the Pakistani logistic line as in the Siachen.

Make some military movements that would draw the Pakistani Army from the West and thereby letting the Taliban have a free hand at massacring some more Shias. That will result in a greater sectarian divide and cause more problems for Pakistan. It would also allow the US to increase their drone activity since these elements will harass the US more and that would cause the US to ponder if they should quit lock, stock and barrel. More trouble for Pakistan.

The thnning out from the West to the East by the Pak Army will also allow the Balochis to get bolder and create more issues causing problems for Pakistan.

On the trade side, we could stop trade forcing Pakistan to import from elsewhere. It should be noted that Pakistan has a huge external debt repayment as also internal debt, It will add to the cost of import and the retailers will pass it on to the Pakistani consumers.

And all this bogus charade of Aman ke Asha or something like that should be canned and binnerd.

So, Pakistan, to my mind will not be the winner in this issue.

And all achieved without going to war with Pakistan!
I did in fact reference the possibility of increased military deployments by India (ala Operation Parakram) as being a better option to drain Pakistani resources (if that is the intent). However, as I pointed out a little bit ago, and was arguing all along, the hysteria and hoopla on the Indian side is dying down as realization sinks in about the absurdity of the Indian position over recent events.

Thankfully the situation is going back to normal without any major human and/or resource wastage.
 

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MMS silent mobile at it once again. Indian Armed forces had given him the option to librate whole of POK this time by using the same excuse which Pak uses. But this idiot has let go of this opportunity yet again. The game suggested by IA+IAF+IN was to limit the offensive on LOC and use the tactics employed by US in Pacific of island hopping to make gradual ingress into POK starting by using our advantage in Saltoro ridge to get Skardu first and than all the heights which they command in URI Poonch sector using heavy artillary and ground offensive. IAF wud have gone into offensive in the same way as they did in 1999 and IN wud have bottled up their oil supplies by stopping ships at sea as most oil of Pak comes thru ships of other nations. We cud have brought this cancer of earth on its knees within four weeks as they are very badly starved of energy and for next two months PA can't fight as well as IA in POK as IA is better equipped to fight in polar weather conditions than PA.
This round also goes to PA as in a battle it is not about win or defeat but being able to retain initiative and advantage. I call it a defeat for IA.
 

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Amid tension, India returns Pakistani national - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site

AMRITSAR: Notwithstanding the brimming tension across Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu following brutal killing of two Indian soldiers by Pakistani army, India on late Wednesday night repatriated a Pakistani national who had inadvertently crossed into India.A BSF official Shubhendu Bhardwaj informed TOI on Thursday that Sayed Naseem Hussain Shah, 28, was detained by BSF's Kissan Guard inside Indian territory near Kahangarh check post on Wednesday.The preliminary interrogation of Shah revealed that he was upset following a tiff with his wife and left his home in fit of anger. Resident of Patti Ground falling under Naulakha police station in Lahore, Shah, informed his interrogators that he worked as a labourer in a fan manufacturing factory in Lahore.Shubhendu informed that investigations revealed that on Wednesday noon Shah had a fight with his wife over some issue and he even thrashed her following which he left his home in state of absent mindedness and came toward the Pakistan side of Integrated Check Post (ICP) at Wagah from where he entered India. According to BSF official, Shah admitted that he was spotted by Pakistan Rangers who didn't prevent him from crossing the border. But as he crossed the international boundary with Pakistan and entered India, he was challenged by BSF's Kissan Guard and was asked to return but he didn't listen to them following which he was detained.BSF recovered Rs 105 Pakistan currency, a double SIM mobile phone and an identity card in Urdu.After being convinced of his innocence, BSF sent a message for flag meeting to Pakistan Rangers at India-Pakistan joint check post at Attari at around 8pm and provided them with Shah's details for verification. It took nearly three hours to ascertain Shah's identity following which he was handed over to Pakistan Rangers at midnight after obtaining receipt from them.
 

SPIEZ

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@Ray and @Kunal Biswas @Decklander

Q) What are the possible actions we have against Pakistan?

1) Covert attack on Pakistani side (alleged by Pakistan that India already does this)

2) Indiscriminate fire assault like arty, mortars and rockets on Pakistani camps ( Arty and mortar are frequently used to subside Pakistani belligerence)

3) Attacking Pakistani outpost which are the cause of frequent attack

4) Attack any Pakistani outpost, when there are such cease fire violations

5) Hold Pakistani outpost and bring them to the diplomatic table.

Please give your suggestions also provide possible options Pakistan will be willing to take.
 
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t_co

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>> Refutable claim

China's U.S. Debt Holdings Aren't Threat, Pentagon Says
By Tony Capaccio & Daniel Kruger - Sep 11, 2012 7:00 AM GMT+0530
Reread what I posted. Where did I mention that China would use its debt holdings as leverage over the US economy?

>> Reprehensible, Irresponsible and Jingoistic attitude

PLA to build strategic bomber after Tu-22M, says US magazine

Staff Reporter 2013-01-09 15:37 (GMT+8)

The Chinese government has not confirmed the story, and Colonel Du Wenlong from the Chinese Academy of Military Sciences said the aircraft is unlikely to enter service with the PLA. First, the design of the Tu-22M3 is old compared to American strategic bombers such as the B-1 and B-2. Second, the aircraft would be unable to strike at US aircraft carriers as it would be detected by E-2 early warning aircraft while still 400 kilometers from the target.
Bingo: Where is the confirmation from the Chinese government on a story like this? You'd think to wait for confirmation from the customer before believing reports of a $1.5B purchase now, wouldn't you?

Second, even if true, how in the heck does this show a reprehensible, jingoistic attitude? Isn't India spending tens of billions on Russian weapons?

China's aging population poses problems for economy and tradition
Sure. China might face economic hiccups in the future--but that's a hope. I'll believe it when it happens. Keep hoping.

The only take away for you from this interview is that we ignored the warnings and clues in the name of peace and were caught off guard, ill prepared, and surprised. No army big or small looses a battle in modern time. Worst case there are a lot of martyrs and ultimately it's the diplomacy and rest of world roped in to pacify. Unfortunately for us, you declared ceasefire and hence there's no credible reasoning or explanation to advocate your claim.
I still don't get it. What does declaring a ceasefire have to do with credible reasoning or explanations to advocate our claims?
 

Novice

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Reread what I posted. Where did I mention that China would use its debt holdings as leverage over the US economy?
:shocked:

We've bought out 2/3rds of the people at the Asia desk of the US State Department with directorships and consultancies, and we're expanding into ex-CIA and ex-Pentagon officials too.
:jaw:

We traffic in influence, real influence, the kind that makes every American president since Clinton turn soft on us once they get into the White House.
:frusty:


I am not going to glorify the rest of your misinformation. Enjoying my Thukpa now (late dinner today). Cheers !
 

t_co

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:shocked:



:jaw:



:frusty:


I am not going to glorify the rest of your misinformation. Enjoying my Thukpa now (late dinner today). Cheers !
lol

We've bought out 2/3rds of the people at the Asia desk of the US State Department with directorships and consultancies, and we're expanding into ex-CIA and ex-Pentagon officials too.
This has nothing to do with debt holdings. Go take a corporate finance class.
 

Novice

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lol



This has nothing to do with debt holdings. Go take a corporate finance class.


Moot Point. You don't need to go to school to learn art of extortion. I don't give your statement anymore credence than i already did.

Blatant lie and then hiding behind the intricacies of Economics? You must be getting some very good education in PRC( Pakistani republic of China)
 

t_co

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Moot Point. You don't need to go to school to learn art of extortion. I don't give your statement anymore credence than i already did.
China isn't applying leverage through its debt holdings. It's applying leverage by giving out money to US officials. Influence the officials, and you influence a country with it...

Blatant lie and then hiding behind the intricacies of Economics? You must be getting some very good education in PRC( Pakistani republic of China)
What?
 

Ray

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I did in fact reference the possibility of increased military deployments by India (ala Operation Parakram) as being a better option to drain Pakistani resources (if that is the intent). However, as I pointed out a little bit ago, and was arguing all along, the hysteria and hoopla on the Indian side is dying down as realization sinks in about the absurdity of the Indian position over recent events.

Thankfully the situation is going back to normal without any major human and/or resource wastage.
At a place and time of our own choosing.
 

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