Pakistan adding submarine muscle while India hems and haws

[nrj]

As of now, only thing that's known is that there's plan for 3 Arihants and 6 Scorpenes, even if we are to assume that something is going on the conventional sub front, where exactly will the manufacturing process be carried out ? There's only two facilities available in India, Mazagaon Docks and Garden Reach, both of which are already occupied with current orders for frigates and the Scorpene subs.

P75B are also under negotiations. Maybe few of them will be built overseas & rest in India.

 

[sandeepdg]

you are forgetting kilos and leasing Akula. 10 Kilos are reportedly in service??

I was talking about what we plan to acquire, not what we already have. You should also know, that out of those 10 kilos, hardly 5 will remain operational by the end of this decade. Akula is on lease for 10 years, we are not buying it.

 

[sandeepdg]

P75B are also under negotiations. Maybe few of them will be built overseas & rest in India.

P75B deal hasn't even been finalized. And construction of those subs can only begin, once the Scorpenes are through which won't be anytime before 2020 at the least, since again they also will be built at Mazagaon docks, if India were to build some them here under TOT.

 

[nrj]

P75B deal hasn't even been finalized. And construction of those subs can only begin, once the Scorpenes are through which won't be anytime before 2020 at the least, since again they also will be built at Mazagaon docks, if India were to build some them here under TOT.

Point is, submarine acquisition plan is drawn.

IN believes in waiting for critical technology than just expanding numbers.

We'll be inducting one of the best subs available via P75A/B.

The day delays are unacceptable, we'll hear IN Chief quetching in public.

 

[sandeepdg]

Point is, submarine acquisition plan is drawn.

IN believes in waiting for critical technology than just expanding numbers.

We'll be inducting one of the best subs available via P75A/B.

The day delays are unacceptable, we'll hear IN Chief quetching in public.

I just hope the delays don't cost us more than what we can digest.

 

[Neil]

P75B deal hasn't even been finalized. And construction of those subs can only begin, once the Scorpenes are through which won't be anytime before 2020 at the least, since again they also will be built at Mazagaon docks, if India were to build some them here under TOT.

this time IN should ask for Indian private companies to built rather wait for mazagoan docks to be cleared...we need subs way too urgently
http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=20813

 

[ZOOM]

I tried to understand it from time to time but I failed to understand that how one of most critical aspect of Naval defence ie submarines can be neglected. On one hand we are going for Aircraft carriers and we donot have enough submarines to be part of carrier battle groups or protect our vast coastlines. How can we dream of offense when we do not have proper defense in place? I am sure in times to come Pakistanis will have upper hands in submarine fleet for sure and that will be a dangerous situation.

I can clearly see element of panic in your statement. Role of Submarine in Arabian Ocean has had never given any secondary role by IN, since submarine cannot move swift enough to locate and track their target. At the same time, they are being allocated with Combact zone that they need to patrol to wait for the easy pray. In fact, Submarine cannot escort civilian ships of friendlies other then warships, because for that matter they have to come above the water. Only surface ship can provide true escort for our civilian ships.

Moreover I can clearly see some errors in this level of reporting, in today's world where sophistication has iconic status, there is nothing anything swift delivery else we may have all the Six scorpians would be in the water by now. Heck even it takes 11 long years just to commission three Agosta for PN.

 

[bengalraider]

The IN and PN followed diametrically opposite maritime strategies in the years of theor development while we focused on sea control via the use of carriers and submarine hunters aka the Americans the PN partially adopted the soviet tactic of sea denial that utilizes submarines and a strong maritime strike bomber force as a deterrent. The seas denial stratagem is most effective for small and economically hampered navies like the PN, this way they can always give is the impression of lurking in the shadows even when they aren't.But make no mistake the IN is preparing well for the PN's subs, P8I is but the tip of the iceberg.As for the question of more subs and fast lot of options are being looked at including the option of buying limited numbers off the shelf while also getting Tot for subsequent production in India(this is also what i believe should have been done with the scorpene).

 

[civfanatic]

The IN and PN followed diametrically opposite maritime strategies in the years of theor development while we focused on sea control via the use of carriers and submarine hunters aka the Americans the PN partially adopted the soviet tactic of sea denial that utilizes submarines and a strong maritime strike bomber force as a deterrent. The seas denial stratagem is most effective for small and economically hampered navies like the PN, this way they can always give is the impression of lurking in the shadows even when they aren't.But make no mistake the IN is preparing well for the PN's subs, P8I is but the tip of the iceberg.As for the question of more subs and fast lot of options are being looked at including the option of buying limited numbers off the shelf while also getting Tot for subsequent production in India(this is also what i believe should have been done with the scorpene).

What strong maritime strike bomber does the PN have? The JF-17?

You are correct in comparing the PN's maritime doctrine with the general Soviet doctrine. However, the Soviets recognized that in modern naval warfare, air defence is crucial. For this reason, they heavily equipped their surface ships with SAMs and AAA, and their aircraft carriers had only one mission: keep enemy airplanes away from friendly submarines.

However, the PN has no such air defence. As soon as they leave friendly airspace near the Pak shoreline, they become targets for the IN's ASW aircraft.

 

[bengalraider]

What strong maritime strike bomber does the PN have? The JF-17?

You are correct in comparing the PN's maritime doctrine with the general Soviet doctrine. However, the Soviets recognized that in modern naval warfare, air defence is crucial. For this reason, they heavily equipped their surface ships with SAMs and AAA, and their aircraft carriers had only one mission: keep enemy airplanes away from friendly submarines.

However, the PN has no such air defence. As soon as they leave friendly airspace near the Pak shoreline, they become targets for the IN's ASW aircraft.

Hence i said partially, however technically speaking the orions with their harpoons are still a credible threat as a maritime strike aircraft also the atlantique can carry the exocet. although neither aircraft should be too much of a threat by virtue of their age and vulnerability to fighter interception , they still remain a threat to supply vessels and lightly armed ships. you are right about the soviet carriers primarily being used to create distractions for the Americans that is something is have pointed out on this forum earlier as well.As far as interdiction of submarines by air is concerned, the entire submarine vs aircraft scenario is one of the cat and the mouse, we need not be aware of the ones that we detect we need to beware of the one or two that we might fail to detect.