Pak gives US 56-page wish list to counter India's might

nandu

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US hints to consider Pak’s plea for defence equipment

The United States Secretary of states, Hillary Clinton has admitted that the United States could consider the Pakistan’s demand over defence equipment. The nation has already demanded for the nuclear power plant and Pakistan is natural ally in terrorism with the United States.

In an interview to a Pakistan’s channel, Hillary told that she would not prejudge over consequences to all issues but definitely like to discuss it which Pakistan wants to put on table. She said that the two nations are going to witness strategic dialogue as they never had to the highest in the past.

Asking over nuclear deal with India, she asserted that it was not a result of easy or quick process, and took long strategic talks.

The current statement of the US Secretary of States certainly upset India as the soften stance for nuclear deal for Pakistan might put the country in trouble.

http://www.mynews.in
 

ahmedsid

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http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/mar/24/pak-56-page-wish-list-to-counter-indias-might.htm

Pak gives US 56-page wish list to counter India's might

As the United States and Pakistan open their strategic dialogue to strengthen rocky ties, Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has submitted a new weapon wish list to America looking for big ticket systems.

The 56-page wish list submitted to the Obama [ Images ] administration by Pakistan in fact mostly seeks those equipments that can bring the country on par with the military might of India [ Images ].

Post 9/11, Pakistan has received more than $7 billion worth of arms sale from the US, authoritative sources said.

In fact, major US arms sales and grants to Pakistan since 2001 have included items useful for counter terrorism and counterinsurgency operations, along with a number of "big ticket" platforms more suited to conventional warfare; which is primarily targeted against India.

According to Pentagon [ Images ] reports, total Foreign Military Sales agreements with Pakistan worth about $5 billion for FY2002-FY2009 (in-process sales of F-16 combat aircraft and related equipment account for about three-quarters of this).

The US also has provided Pakistan with more than $2.1 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) since 2001 (including scheduled FY2010 funds). These funds are used to purchase US military equipment for longer-term modernisation efforts.

Pakistan has also been granted US defence supplies as Excess Defence Articles (EDA), the sources said.

Some of the major post-2001 defence supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:

Eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million);
About five 250 TOW anti-armor missiles ($186 million; 2,007 delivered);
More than 5,600 military radio sets ($163 million);
Six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars ($100 million);
Six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment ($76 million);
Five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters granted under EDA ($67 million);
One ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA ($65 million);
20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters via EDA ($48 million, 12 refurbished and delivered);
21 refurbished TOW missile launchers ($25 million).
Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:

Up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477 million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits);
115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers ($87 million, with $53 million in FMF)
Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:

18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion; none delivered to date);
F-16 armaments, including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for gravity bombs ($629 million);
100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million)
500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million);
Six Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns ($80 million)
While the Pentagon notified Congress on the possible transfer to Pakistan of three P-3B aircraft as EDA grants that would be modified to carry the E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning suite in a deal worth up to $855 million, this effort has not progressed beyond the notification stage; the sources said.

Other major EDA grants since 2001 include 14 F-16A/B combat aircraft and 39 T-37 military trainer jets. Under Coalition Support Funds (part of the Pentagon budget), Pakistan has received 26 Bell 412 utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance, valued at $235 million.

Besides, Pakistan has received helicopter spare parts, various night vision devices, radios, body armor, helmets, first aid kits, litters, and large quantities of other individual soldier equipment; according to the Department of Defence.
 

ahmedsid

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Pretty impressive list they got going there, but not enough for India, but still somewhat good. I will be waiting to hear what Uncle Shyam has to say on this! Those P3s are pretty good stuff, and needs to be looked at seriously, those AMRAAMs too. I am not raising an alarm or anything, Pakistan cant take on India with this, but this will add teeth for sure, and arms race galore! Get read for some fireworks! :)
 

ajtr

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Arms race or not, but india is indirectly paying for subsided pakistani weapon acquisition by buying weapons from usa.What pakistan gets for free or on subsidized rates from usa, india has to shell out hard earned dollars to acquire the same from usa.
 

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This is what I feel is US's grand strategy with respect to middle east and Asia. India should be careful in dealing with US keeping this viewpoint of US in mind

Let’s now consider the assumption that Israel is a critical U.S. asset. American grand strategy has always been derived from British grand strategy. The United States seeks to maintain regional balances of power in order to avoid the emergence of larger powers that can threaten U.S. interests. The Cold War was a massive exercise in the balance of power, pitting an American-sponsored worldwide alliance system against one formed by the Soviet Union. Since the end of the Cold War, the United States has acted a number of times against regional hegemons: Iraq in 1990-91, Serbia in 1999 and so on.

In the area called generally the Middle East, but which we prefer to think of as the area between the Mediterranean and the Hindu Kush, there are three intrinsic regional balances. One is the Arab-Israeli balance of power. The second is the Iran-Iraq balance. The third is the Indo-Pakistani balance of power. The American goal in each balance is not so much stability as it is the mutual neutralization of local powers by other local powers.

Two of the three regional balances of power are collapsed or in jeopardy. The 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq and the failure to quickly put a strong, anti-Iranian government in place in Baghdad, has led to the collapse of the central balance of power — with little hope of resurrection. The eastern balance of power between Pakistan and India is also in danger of toppling. The Afghan war has caused profound stresses in Pakistan, and there are scenarios in which we can imagine Pakistan’s power dramatically weakening or even cracking. It is unclear how this will evolve, but what is clear is that it is not in the interest of the United States because it would destroy the native balance of power with India. The United States does not want to see India as the unchallenged power in the subcontinent any more than it wants to see Pakistan in that position. The United States needs a strong Pakistan to balance India, and its problem now is how to manage the Afghan war — a side issue strategically — without undermining the strategic interest of the United States, an Indo-Pakistani balance of power.

The western balance of power, Israel and the surrounding states, is relatively stable. What is most important to the United States at this point is that this balance of power also not destabilize. In this sense, Israel is an important strategic asset. But in the broader picture, where the United States is dealing with the collapse of the central balance of power and with the destabilization of the eastern balance of power, Washington does not want or need the destabilization of the western balance — between the Israelis and Arabs — at this time. U.S. “bandwidth” is already stretched to the limit. Washington does not need another problem. Nor does it need instability in this region complicating things in the other regions.

Note that the United States is interested in maintaining the balance of power. This means that the U.S. interest is in a stable set of relations, with no one power becoming excessively powerful and therefore unmanageable by the United States. Israel is already the dominant power in the region, and the degree to which Syria, Jordan and Egypt contain Israel is limited. Israel is moving from the position of an American ally maintaining a balance of power to a regional hegemon in its own right operating outside the framework of American interests.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100322_netanyahuobama_meeting_context
 

ajtr

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^^Yup.Usa always tried to protect and balance pak with india and thats the game going on for past 6 decades.thats the only reason nixon wanted to protect west pakistan at all cost by inviting chinese to attack india in 1971 to sending its 7th fleet to bay of bengal.As for india is concerned pakistan is just a symptom real rot lies with usa.for the pas 6 decades indian leadership has been busy treating the symptom called pak not the disease called usa.
 

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AJ,

I correlate with what you say and the stuff posted by DD, but what is the solution you have to overcome this situation which has persisted for such a long time now when India statically has really not moved up the ladder even after all the hype surrounding our economic growth, look back in history and one will find a good 40years back India was the 12th largest nominal economy which remains the same even today. All this time we have earned some clout but certainly not to the extent that we can checkmate the Americans in their game, so how do we go about dealing with it?

That said it is indeed good to see the true colours of the US since right from the fag end of NDA regime to UPA-I to now UPA-II our policy makers and politicians had and have fallen in love with the American just a little too much which remains a cause of concern, a rude wake up call but quite timely indeed and thankfully all this happening right before the mmrca winner is declared else it would have been a wakeup call just a little too expensive by 10-20b usd.
 

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AJ,

I correlate with what you say and the stuff posted by DD, but what is the solution you have to overcome this situation which has persisted for such a long time now when India statically has really not moved up the ladder even after all the hype surrounding our economic growth, look back in history and one will find a good 40years back India was the 12th largest nominal economy which remains the same even today. All this time we have earned some clout but certainly not to the extent that we can checkmate the Americans in their game, so how do we go about dealing with it?

That said it is indeed good to see the true colours of the US since right from the fag end of NDA regime to UPA-I to now UPA-II our policy makers and politicians had and have fallen in love with the American just a little too much which remains a cause of concern, a rude wake up call but quite timely indeed and thankfully all this happening right before the mmrca winner is declared else it would have been a wakeup call just a little too expensive by 10-20b usd.
Simple answer, our leaders need to grow a pair (you know what I mean). For the starters, India should

* Make it clear to US that propping up Pakistan against India in terms of supplying advances arms & weapons will set back relationship between India and US. Showing finger in MRCA, nuclear reactors deal, other weapons deals will be a starter.

* Make it clear that covering up of Pakistani misdeeds like they are doing now with David Headley aka Daood Gilani will lead to non-cooperation in supplying intelligence pertaining to terrorism against american targets.
 

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^^Even if they dont have the courage to do all that atleast our leaders should have the courage to yell at the top of their voices that it is not Pakistan thats the problem, it is US' help to Pakistan that is the problem. Atleast, start talking then the actions will follow....
 

thakur_ritesh

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DD,

What you say makes sense but do our leaders really have the kind of balls, let alone taking on the US and its concerned officials and telling them of our dos and don’ts our rather docile MoEA SM Krishna and his babus cant even come up with the proper counter strategy to play around with Pakistan and their rather belligerent mouth pieces, the foreign minister and sect of foreign affairs.

You just have to look at afpak and more recently the snub these chaps have been handed out at the hands of Americans where today or yesterday hillary clinton went on to say what she had to on the proposed nuke deal to Pakistan and all that post the official reaction from our MoEA.

It is quite clear Americans give two hoots to what we say, with all the talk of India a strategic partner and a natural partner is just some hot air spread by people who are lobbing for their own interests in the bargain but the more important question is, is India ready to put its relations with the US on the backburner if they are not ready to listen and address our concerns, if not then well what is the solution around this persisting problem?
 

ajtr

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Ritesh,
I think we as indians always underestimated our potential.I think the words of Indian Foreign Secretary Ms. Nirupama Rao(need citation here),"india has potential and power but dont know how to wield it".i'm not sure of exact wording but nearly this was she said once in one of her interviews.India is weak and US is strong, is being taken to absurd levels of psy-ops. India is not that weak, US is not that strong.and indira had shown it in 1971.nixon did everything to save pakistan but it cant.with best strategic leaders india can today also deal with usa.Alas for the past 10 years or so our foreign policy has been failure.today india need course correction in its policies.Many a time what indian army has won at war its leadership lost it at table and indian leaders are prone of not taking the disputes to its conclusive ends when ever they had upper hand.Main reason for it is the mercantile mentality of indian leaders that they tread the path of least resistance which anyway end up ultimately paying more in the end.

Why india is isolated today on AFPAK---coz of its wrong policies coz it chose to align wrong camp.M.bhadra kumar's articles too points into same direction that indian foreign policy is in shambles by alienating old allies like iran and russians.

And regarding causing pain to usa MMRCA is just a straw there are many ways india can turn uncle's game upside down.align with china russia for example .this idea many are floating now.i dont know how successful sco will be.but its worth trying..india is big market usa companies dare not to lose thats another leverage india has.India of 1947 has grown strong in 2010 and usa of 1947 has grown weak in 2010.if india of 1971 can defy usa in that time and dissect pakistan sure india of 2010 can defy usa today in AFPAK and turn uncle's game upside down.
 

johnee

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TR,
Why blame SM Krishna when the PM is more docile and is talking about walking extra miles while Pakistan groups attack Indian mainland(Pune) and Indian interests(Kabul)? Why cant our PM start by talking tough? Even if he cant follow it up with any credible action...why talk about silly emotional stuff like 'walk the extra miles'...etc? Why cant he give a direct message to Pakistan and its supporters like US through our parliament that ISI supported terrorism will not be tolerated and can lead to far reaching consequencies? Obviously US does not want any escalation and there is an outside chance they may atleast temporarily tone down their support to Pakistan. US will keep pushing until we give a clear signal that we are not going to take any more of it. MMS' strategy of 'walking extra miles' is certainly not working while Pakistan's strategy of being belingerant is working specatcularly, the most magnificent example of it is that US' and the world has bought its argument that Pakistan has a key role to play in Astan and one way to 'encourage' pakistan to play a positive role is by elevating its fears regarding India.
 

ajtr

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DD,

What you say makes sense but do our leaders really have the kind of balls, let alone taking on the US and its concerned officials and telling them of our dos and don’ts our rather docile MoEA SM Krishna and his babus cant even come up with the proper counter strategy to play around with Pakistan and their rather belligerent mouth pieces, the foreign minister and sect of foreign affairs.

You just have to look at afpak and more recently the snub these chaps have been handed out at the hands of Americans where today or yesterday hillary clinton went on to say what she had to on the proposed nuke deal to Pakistan and all that post the official reaction from our MoEA.

It is quite clear Americans give two hoots to what we say, with all the talk of India a strategic partner and a natural partner is just some hot air spread by people who are lobbing for their own interests in the bargain but the more important question is, is India ready to put its relations with the US on the backburner if they are not ready to listen and address our concerns, if not then well what is the solution around this persisting problem?
That the crux of the problem.problem is our own created and solution of that too lies with us but we as bania dont like to take risk.I dont see in present politician both in ruling and opposition who can take on this problem coz they are happy with usa pat at their back and state dinners and they follow all orders dutifully emanating from DC.
 

thakur_ritesh

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And regarding causing pain to usa MMRCA is just a straw there are many ways india can turn uncle's game upside down.align with china russia for example .this idea many are floating now.i dont know how successful sco will be.but its worth trying..india is big market usa companies dare not to lose thats another leverage india has.India of 1947 has grown strong in 2010 and usa of 1947 has grown weak in 2010.if india of 1971 can defy usa in that time and dissect pakistan sure india of 2010 can defy usa today in AFPAK and turn uncle's game upside down.
AJ,

i was not pointing at the US there, 10-20b usd is a throw away for the americans and it hardly makes any difference to them but had we gone ahead with that deal with the americans and then realised their true colours then that deal would have cost us real dear.

yes, the china option is indeed very important something even i was pondering upon but then if one has followed the chinese foreign policy, they are the ones who negotiate from a point of strenght or do not and today they have no real need of india on the contrary they would be more happy to have the status quo with keeping india bogged down through pakistan much like what the US has and is trying to do and then they also do not have any real interest in settling the border dispute which also makes them a suspect that if pakistan goes to a war with us they might want to cash on and try and grab some of our land, then how do you think we go about dealing with them and then using them to our advantage.
 

ajtr

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TR,
Why blame SM Krishna when the PM is more docile and is talking about walking extra miles while Pakistan groups attack Indian mainland(Pune) and Indian interests(Kabul)? Why cant our PM start by talking tough? Even if he cant follow it up with any credible action...why talk about silly emotional stuff like 'walk the extra miles'...etc? Why cant he give a direct message to Pakistan and its supporters like US through our parliament that ISI supported terrorism will not be tolerated and can lead to far reaching consequencies? Obviously US does not want any escalation and there is an outside chance they may atleast temporarily tone down their support to Pakistan. US will keep pushing until we give a clear signal that we are not going to take any more of it. MMS' strategy of 'walking extra miles' is certainly not working while Pakistan's strategy of being belingerant is working specatcularly, the most magnificent example of it is that US' and the world has bought its argument that Pakistan has a key role to play in Astan and one way to 'encourage' pakistan to play a positive role is by elevating its fears regarding India.
Im blaming the whole PMO and EAM. Btw bot EAM and MOS EF is PM's choice and also the NSA.so whole team is to blame saving grace in present ruling party is Home ministry,defence ministry and finance which sometimes oppose golden ideas emanating from PMO.
 

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AJ,

i was not pointing at the US there, 10-20b usd is a throw away for the americans and it hardly makes any difference to them but had we gone ahead with that deal with the americans and then realised their true colours then that deal would have cost us real dear.

yes, the china option is indeed very important something even i was pondering upon but then if one has followed the chinese foreign policy, they are the ones who negotiate from a point of strenght or do not and today they have no real need of india on the contrary they would be more happy to have the status quo with keeping india bogged down through pakistan much like what the US has and is trying to do and then they also do not have any real interest in settling the border dispute which also makes them a suspect that if pakistan goes to a war with us they might want to cash on and try and grab some of our land, then how do you think we go about dealing with them and then using them to our advantage.
It will be again same return to 1990s then but not that harsh.1. usa is not sole superpower.2.india is not economically and militarily wreck as in 1990.start probing on pakistans border now let them pull forces from west.turn pakistan's nightmare into reality regarding water.avoid all coperation with uncle on any treaty go with china/russia on iran issue and climate change etc.
 

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Will our politicians ever wake up to such testimony’s, I doubt, they are too busy fighting amongst themselves. We the tax paying citizens of the Republic of India will have to pay the ultimate price. We are still not valued in our own country then the American's who just show a carrot and we run after them, I think our stand has weekend due to the fall of the USSR. Still in spite of having such a big economy we still beg in front of the USA for cutting edge technology. We should stop fighting amongst our selves and take India towards self reliance and growth. The Growth that we see today does not really look like Growth. Our Villages still don't have electricity and our economy is still dependable on agriculture. We should not worry what US things about us. We should force them to change the perception!!!

Well Pakistan will always be our arch enemy unless we remove them from the Map and include it as another state in India, any way they were born from us due to a cheap Joke when British left our homes. We should not return the Favor
 

thakur_ritesh

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TR,
Why blame SM Krishna when the PM is more docile and is talking about walking extra miles while Pakistan groups attack Indian mainland(Pune) and Indian interests(Kabul)? Why cant our PM start by talking tough? Even if he cant follow it up with any credible action...why talk about silly emotional stuff like 'walk the extra miles'...etc? Why cant he give a direct message to Pakistan and its supporters like US through our parliament that ISI supported terrorism will not be tolerated and can lead to far reaching consequencies? Obviously US does not want any escalation and there is an outside chance they may atleast temporarily tone down their support to Pakistan. US will keep pushing until we give a clear signal that we are not going to take any more of it. MMS' strategy of 'walking extra miles' is certainly not working while Pakistan's strategy of being belingerant is working specatcularly, the most magnificent example of it is that US' and the world has bought its argument that Pakistan has a key role to play in Astan and one way to 'encourage' pakistan to play a positive role is by elevating its fears regarding India.
Johnee,

I agree there and it is certainly a case of top down with the trickle down effect on the minister in charge for the external affairs, who comes across as a perfect disciple of our PM, but still he is a key component and what he says carries a lot of weight and he remains a guiding light to the PM on the foreign policy of the state or else he is needlessly there so he certainly has to take the responsibility on what India is doing on the foreign affairs front.

I will kind of disagree where you say the PM has to do the posturing, the top office of the country need not be involved in there, it’s the job of his lieutenants and that is precisely where a MS Krishna fits the bill and has to do the talking rather than do a no show at all and come across as a perfect fool, each time he is handed out a snub at the hands of the pak foreign minister.

More importantly and leaving the individual aside, did the US and the NATO have any other choice of not listening to the paks since they are they ones who will be of great use to the US once they leave a’stan. I have got to agree with AJ, where he points out on the failed policy on our end where we deserted iran and Russia but then the circumstances when that was done were different since there was the bush administration in place which it self was very warm towards India who were pushing us to play a bigger role but now there is a sea change.

The only good thing I see happening is luckily India did not desert the Russians or we would have looked like big fools with everyone laughing at us!
 

ajtr

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Ritesh, this particular comment struck me this article by a some reader. needs cross-posting here.


snippet of a comment under same article

History repeats itself...........
The History of US - Pakistan relations show that whenever the Americans gave aid to pakistan to further their own interests, the pakistanis mistook it as broad American support to Pakistan for their actions against India.Every American military aid that pakistan received was used against India although officially the americans said it was against communists (as they said in the 80s) and Islamists (like they are saying it now).But the Americans also knew that these weapons will be used against India.But in their bigger objective of defeating communism then or Islamism now, India is a small fry. Giving pakistan a nuclear deal to stop terrorism is like rewarding a snake by giving milk and expecting it wont bite afterwards. India got the deal because of its good behaviour.Now the suggestion is pakistan should get the deal because of its bad behaviour. For many years the Americans got miffed whenever the Indians talk about non-alignment between US and the Soveits.Now it is time for the Indians to tell the Americans that their owm Non-alignment between the Indians and pakistanis should stop.They have to choose on.They cannot hunt with the hound and run with the hare.The Americans needs to realise that this is a zero sum game and they have to choose one.
On its part, India should understand that if they want to tackle pakistan, they need to tackle America first.Without American support, pakistan is nothing (even after including the chinese and Saudi support). At this point of time India does not have any leverage against the Americans and they should develop one asap.
If you want to stop America coming to pakistan's rescue everytime, then
FIRST develop a ICBM that can hit America and then talk to the Americans.
SECOND, develop strong relations with Iran.An increased Indian-Iranian interactions will be helpful in Indian-American interactions.
THIRD Punish the American business who wants to do business with both India and pakistan.Lockheed martin and Boeing cannot sell weapons to pakistan and expect to be in the IAF tenders.
FOURTH, dont be shy to poke a finger in Uncle sam's eye, if the American's are not listening to you.Create a nuisance for the americans in the first place and then negotiate to reduce that nuisance without reducing it completely .The pakistanis have perfected this art like anything and this last tip is one of the few things which the Indians can learn from pakistanis.
 
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I wonder how USA's policy of antagonizing the bigger countries like China,Russia, India will turn out for USA??
 

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