P-8I maritime patrol aircraft

Payeng

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What I got to know from the picture is that it indicates nautical miles not mile alone.

i will PM you don't want to post info publicly.
bad 'cause I would miss the posts.:(
 

Auberon

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Mate,

we are arguing at cross purposes. This will clear up the misunderstanding.

they can go 5000 miles on one fueling and come back with one mid air fueling, this is enough for us to cover China.
Neither am I contending the refuelling capability of this variant, nor their effective coverage. Just that they cannot go 5k miles in one fuelling. They can go 1200 miles with 4 hours loiter time on station. 4800 nautical miles self deployment range is a marketing gimmick meaning it can be deployed in any direction, i.e. it can be deployed on a full tank to a 1200 nmi radius (1200*4 = 4800), thus the range is 1200 nmi. You will see that in the marketing slide, the mission radius is written immediately below in slightly smaller letters. :)


http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/docs/P-8A_overview.pdf


http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=1300&ct=1

What I got to know from the picture is that it indicates nautical miles not mile alone.
1200 nautical miles = 1381 miles
 
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now that we have our waters covered we should still try to get this beauty


 

Payeng

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Checking the wiki page on Boeing 737 and Boieng's web site it reports that the Boieng 737 have a range of 3,300 nautical miles and 5,510 nautical miles equipped with nine auxiliary fuel tanks, since P-8 is a derivatives of Boieng 737 I think 5000 miles should not be a problem with P-8 but maybe self deployed as the mentioned picture says for operational requirements or is manufactured solely for commercial purpose, though those article doesn't mentioned the range if for non stop commuting or not.
 

Singh

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now that we have our waters covered we should still try to get this beauty


Sir we don't need bombers... :sad:
We need to really augment our ASW capability. P8i is a step in the right direction but by no means is the work complete
 
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this just the first piece in the puzzle our scorpenes,ATV,Brahmos etc... will help augment other areas
 

Singh

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this just the first piece in the puzzle our scorpenes,ATV,Brahmos etc... will help augment other areas
Sorry for going on a different tangent but first we need to provide our jawans a decent pay, good equipment (rifles, bp jackets) and assurance that we will stand by them, when they are busy fighting the enemy and serving the nation.
 
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Sorry for going on a different tangent but first we need to provide our jawans a decent pay, good equipment (rifles, bp jackets) and assurance that we will stand by them, when they are busy fighting the enemy and serving the nation.

Singh this has been the complaint of Jawans all over the world from the beginning of time.
 

Yusuf

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Yusuf since these could refuel in mid-air it may not be necessary, they can go 5000 miles on one fueling and come back with one mid air fueling, this is enough for us to cover China.
Don't know about mid air refeuling on this bird and also this is not meant to cover China as in it's mainland. It will certainly not fly to South China Sea
 

Singh

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Singh this has been the complaint of Jawans all over the world from the beginning of time.
Sir, Indian jawans are woefully ill equipped compared to NATO soldier but lets keep this topic for another thread..

To keep on topic P8i is a good addition to our asw and maritime patrol capability.

By 2020 as per ex-Admiral Arun Prakash Indian Navy could be operating upto 30 P8is
Accordingly, it was currently looking at eight LRMPs, but by around 2020 their number was expected to go up to 30. Whatever the navy would buy would be done after careful consideration of what is available, what is on board, what is the lifecycle cost, availability of spares and some other parameters.
http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2236

PS: Indian Navy is further enhancing its capability by looking to induct at present half dozen other Medium range maritime patrol crafts. :113:
 

Soham

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Hmmm....

Firstly comparing the range of turbo-probs to the Jets would be unfair...
But look at the brighter side !

They make half the noise, their sensor equipments are much advanced and they are more network-centric.

As far as monitoring South China sea is concerned...
That would be a suicide ! What will we ever want to do that for ?
 

Soham

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now that we have our waters covered we should still try to get this beauty


Whatever for ?
We don't have enough money nor enough fuel to maintain those guzzlers. And that too just for symbolic importance.
 

kuku

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These birds together with the old and leaky Russian aircraft carrier represent a lot of fire power.

Its about the need to have such platforms, money and fuel one has to find, dig deeper in their pockets.

the current priority should be the carriers.
 

vijaytripoli

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Indian Navy’s P-8I LRMP **–– God of the Seas
By Shashank Sinha
The Indian Navy (IN) has finally concluded a US$ 2-plus billion deal for eight Boeing P8I ‘Poseidon’ Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft (LRMP), in what is the biggest defence deal yet with the United States. The first aircraft is expected to arrive within 48 months of the contract being signed, with deliveries being completed by 2016.
The very first P-8A airframe is currently undergoing integration with onboard electronic surveillance, intelligence and attack systems, and is due to be delivered to the US Navy (USN) later this year to begin the test program which is expected to culminate with IOC 2012.

In many ways this is a revolutionary acquisition program for the IN, affecting a jump in its maritime surveillance capabilities in the region and better integrated joint operations with other players.

Origins

The Indian version called the P8I (for India) is a direct outcome of a two-year requirement study started in 1997 by the USN, for the replacement of its P-3C Orion fleet. Boeing and Lockheed Martin were shortlisted in 2002 for proposals, with the former presenting a 737-800 ERX based platform while the latter proposed an upgraded ‘Orion’.

Boeing went ahead to create a technology demonstrator based on the successful BBJ platform to test on board systems, leading to selection of P8 in July 2004. Five test airframes are expected to be produced by 2012 with full scale production to commence subsequent to IOC. By modifying an existing aircraft with a proven track record, Boeing was able to better focus its attention on behind-the-scenes engineering, and a streamlined production process involved in the project.

Figure1. P-8A Fact Sheet Retrieved 21 January 2009 from: http://www.navair.navy.mil/mma/index.cfm?method=controller.about



Missions

The P8I will carry a heady mix of multi dimensional electronic sensors to carry out diverse missions:

Radar to detect surface shipping movements;

Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) to detect submarine movements. The MAD is typically mounted on an extension from the tail of the aircraft in order to minimize the aircraft's magnetic field interference towards the MAD;

Sonobuoy dropped from the aircraft onto the sea to detect submarine movements, then transmit the data back to the aircraft;

ELINT sensors to monitor civilian and military telecommunications;

Infrared camera to monitor shipping movements.

Indian Navy is expected to retain the best of the US electronic suite, while also opting for quite a bit of mix and match by procuring some key sensors like Radar (Elta EL/M-2022(V)3) from Israel and Wescam MX-15 Electro-Optic/Infrared Sensor (EO/IR) from Canada.

In order to perform such varied missions, P8 would carry a crew 0f nine consisting of dual-pilot, five mission crew (plus relief pilot and in-flight technician). Each of the mission crew would be responsible of running the mission sensors through five integrated consoles.

Weapons

Like its predecessors the P-8 also sports an internal bomb bay to accommodate a mission specific mix of torpedoes, bombs and mines. The principle weapon is likely to be a derivative of Raytheon Mk54 torpedoes, modified for high altitude release, that will be more typical of a jet based MMA. A total of five Mk54 can be carried and should make an excellent addition to IN’s arsenal. Under wing hard points will provide for additional carriage of Harpoon missiles for ASW missions.

Operational Aspects

Prop or Jet?

The P-8 is not without its detractors though. Much of initial debate is focused on the suitability of a turbofan powered aircraft verses the conventional turboprop LRMP aircraft. Although, a jet powered aircraft would make a faster transit to the operating area than a turboprop, a jet is also inherently much less fuel efficient at low-level. It is the low-level performance of a 737, an area that an ASW aircraft spends considerable amount of time in that is giving many commentators cause for concern. This assumes special significance when using the Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) to track a submarine (P-8I as opposed to P-8A will have one), the P-8 will need fly at around 200ft above sea level and make 2G, 60 degree tightly banked turns. With a fairly modest, highly swept super-critical wing optimized for high-level / high speed cruise, the handling and turning characteristics of a fully loaded 737-800 may not be optimum, and as some point out maybe downright dangerous.

To obtain a better understanding of the above scenario however, one has to appreciate how the typical Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) operations are conducted today. There are basically three stages of ASW ops:

Detection

Tracking

Localization/attack.

Detection is done in any number of ways and can originate from different sensors. For the maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), it’s usually done at altitude using sonobuoys, either based upon intelligence or upon detection by some other asset. This is easy on the airframe because higher-level flight is usually smooth and aggressive high-G manoeuvres are rare. Passive tracking (using the target’s noise and not generating any yourself) of a located target is also relatively less demanding and again, at a higher altitude. Things get tough during the third stage that is localization for an attack. For this earlier platforms like the P-3 used active sonobuoys that “ping” to provide a distance and bearing to the target, which now knows you are there and begins high-speed evasive manoeuvring. The P-3 also used magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) to provide an “on top” mark from the sub’s steel hull. This is low-level, yanking and banking flight that puts the aircraft through a lot of relatively high-G as a result of steep turns and low-level turbulence, which really wears down both the airframe and crew. In fact, the USN is trying to extend the life of its remaining P-3s as much as possible by minimizing low-altitude flight. One step has been to create a kit that turns the P-3’s Mk 54 torpedo into a glide bomb that may be launched from altitude. The P-8A is being designed without MAD for USN, clearly reflecting an intention to minimize low-altitude flight, both for airframe ease and limiting a target’s chances of detecting a tracking airplane.

However, this certainly doesn’t mean that the P-8 is wholly unsuitable for low altitude operations and designed to completely avoid it. Boeing tried to allay similar reservations on part of the USN, during the technology demonstrator trial in December 2003, when a 737 BBJ2, simulating a P-8, did a tour of major US Naval Air Stations. The strenuous set of demonstrations included tactical manoeuvres at an altitude of 200ft, and simulated single engine manoeuvres.

In actual scenarios, MPA don't normally fly down to 200ft, only descending to low levels once a target has been identified. For normal ops, current tactics call for flight at a cruise altitude, with a series of quick dives to drop sonobuoys and torpedoes. It would not be safe to fly at 200ft for the whole flight anyway, no matter whether it's a P-3 or a P-8. Apart from the stress on man and machine, a loss of power at low level would also mean a catastrophic loss of altitude. As mentioned earlier, the ASW aircraft will increasingly shed the need to fly low, as glide torpedoes come on line. Some respite in this department will also come from UAVs working in conjunction, which will take over the majority of level flying.

To what extent the above solutions remain relevant to Indian Navy is however still open to interpretation. The Indian P-8I will surely need to undertake some amount of low level flying to operate the MAD gear. Although it is not something beyond the capability of the P-8, in a tactical scenario, it is bound have an impact on the endurance requirements. Again, this is not something limited to a jet platform, and the P-8I too will benefit as more UAVs enter the IN operations. It must also be mentioned here, that MAD sensors are not optimal and certainly never primary sensors for submarine detection being prone to clutter from undersea ore deposits etc.

Twin Jet: How Safe?

The second most significant issue for the P-8 is the question regarding safety regime of a twin jet configuration. As operators make transition from earlier quad turboprop platforms like P-3, Tu-114 and Il-38, they have voiced apprehensions about a twin jet platform’s inherent lack of redundancy. The issue might seem redundant today in the age of safe twin jet air transports, but it was serious enough for at least one potential operator, namely the Japanese, who sight this factor as one of the reasons to go for their indigenous Kawasaki P-1 MPA powered by four turbofans.

However, apart from some inherent danger of an engine failure at low level, the risk factor should be the same as for any twin jet commercial liner. An engine failure seems less and less probable in the age of modern aero engines, and the P8 scores here, being based on a proven design/power plant combination. Even in the case of such eventuality, loss of an engine doesn’t necessarily results in an immediate crash. Based on known cases of similar failures during landing takeoff stage, the aircraft begins to bank, providing the crew some time to react and compensate. In the event of a similar failure in cruise regime, it doesn’t automatically translate into loss of 50% of power. Since the aircraft does not cruise at 100% engine power to begin with, and upon losing one engine, thrust is increased on the other engine to compensate. This is more likely to result in a fall in power from 70% down to around 55% (the other engine can be pushed harder in emergencies), and the primary effect will be on cruising speed, rather than flyability.

Range and Reach

Thanks to highly fuel efficient modern engine technology, the P-8 in spite of carrying much less internal fuel, compares favourably in range and endurance, to some of the older prop based platforms it will succeed:

P-8 ‘Poseidon’
P-3 ‘Orion’
IL-38 ‘May’

Speed
490 knots (564 mph)
Speed
330 knots (379.8 mph)
Speed
347 knots (399 mph)

Range
1200+ nautical miles radius

(1,381 miles) with 4hours on station


Range
845 nautical miles radius (973.1

miles) with 3 hours on station
Range
1188 nautical miles radius (1367 miles) Total endurance 12 hours

Fuel
10,000 pounds
Fuel
60,000 pounds
Fuel
48,000 pounds approx.

Gross Weight
187,700 pounds
Gross Weight
139,760 pounds
Gross Weight
39,700



*Figures for P-8 after http://www.navair.navy.mil/mma/index.cfm?method=controller.about
*Figures for P-3 after http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/p-3.html
*Figures for IL-38 after http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/ilyushin_il38_may.htm

As evident from above table, although the P-8 is 25 percent heavier than P-3C and Il-38, the P-8 carried about one-sixth the fuel capacity, has two less and more efficient engines, which provide greater operational missions range and quicker on station time due to greater speeds.

Conclusions

The P-8I deal is in many ways a revolutionary deal for the Indian Navy, and it should dramatically improve its surveillance and ASW capabilities. It is also a representation of the new found confidence in Indo-US security relationship. It must stand out as the single most high technology defence hardware transfer to India as compared to previous deals of weapon locating radars, surface ship and transport aircrafts. Performance-wise, the Boeing P-8 is the most capable successor to any legacy LRMP platform like the P-3 Orion it is designed to replace, or in the Indian case the venerable Tu-142 Bear.

It's based off a very successful airliner, with over 5,400 built and around 7,000 ordered, giving us an assured supply of spares and technical support. Despite the high unit cost and perhaps some yet to be ascertained high life cycle costs, apart from issues with end user agreements, India is picking up a system which ran into more than $3.89 billion in development costs. In fact we should expect further airframes to join the fleet in midterm future as Indian Navy expands its operations and a force of 8 aircrafts may turn out to be too stretched out to meet operational requirements. Although IN has traditionally fielded very small LRMP fleets comprising of around a dozen platforms (Japan for instance plans to induct as many as 78 P-1 aircraft), faced with an increasing PLAN SSN threat in mid to long-term, it may opt for an expanded force structure of such platforms.
 

kuku

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Under wing hard points will provide for additional carriage of Harpoon missiles for ASW missions
Typ-O alert. :)

There is so much of P-8I porn in media these days, sounds like these guys are in love, all of this is ironic when we consider that the real important stuff will never be known to us all.
Its just the hardware we are buying with our money.
 
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US Congress approves spy plane deal with India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Story...+Congress+approves+spy+plane+deal+with+India+


US Congress approves spy plane deal with India

The US Congress has approved the sale of eight Boeing P8-I multi-mission spy planes to India, apparently clearing the decks for transfer of a variety of other sophisticated defence systems by the new Obama administration to New Delhi.

A Congressional committee comprising members from both the Senate and House of Representative examined the proposed sale, and cleared it through a notification on April 11. As per the US rules, the notice for the proposed sale was sent to the Congress on March 12 by the US State Department, and the Congress had 30 days to consider and approve or reject it.

According to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, defence sources in Washington and New Delhi have described the clearance as significant as it indicates that the administration of President Barack Obama would continue to build up defence and strategic ties with India, initiated actually by President Bill Clinton although pursued aggressively by President George W Bush.

A top naval official told India Strategic that although the US government had cleared the sale of six Lockheed Martin C 130Js in the past, the sale of Boeing P8-I aircraft actually determined the course of India-US defence ties as of now. "If the sale had been blocked, then all other equipment that the US companies are trying to sell to India would automatically be off the acquisition list of India."

In its notice to the Congress, mandatory under US rules for selling weapons to foreign countries, the State Department had said that it had factored in "political, military, economic, human rights and arms control considerations" before deciding on the $2.1 billion sale of these aircraft.

Because of the change of administration in Washington, the sale had become a test case, particularly as Washington cannot sell military and dual use systems without certain End User stipulations.

Boeing's Vice President and Country Head for Integrated Defence Systems (India) Vivek Lall said that the approval was "historic" as it clearly signified that "both the US and Indian governments were leaning forward in cooperation on newer technologies".

Boeing was offering lifetime support and modernisation of its systems in accordance with bilateral agreements. Lall described the deal as "unprecedented" as this is the first time that the US is sharing the technology developed for US armed forces with another country at the same time.

It is significant that the Indian Navy will be the first foreign naval force to get this technology after the US Navy, which has paid for the aircraft's development for its global maritime role, and nearly at the same time. Canada, Australia and Italy are the other countries which have expressed interest in the MMA, designated as P8-A for the US Navy.

The aircraft is still under development, and will take off for the skies for the first time later this year. Its delivery to India would begin in about four years.

Notably, India is in a major drive to replace its outdated, Soviet-vintage equipment for the Army, Navy and Air Force with latest and contemporary generation precision strike systems and their supporting infrastructure. Boeing itself is trying to sell heavy lift C 17 Globemaster III transport aircraft, heavy lift Chinook helicopter, Apache combat helicopter, F 18 Super Hornet attack aircraft, Harpoon missiles, and more Boeing P8-I and other Boeing 737-based aircraft.

The big deal though is for the $10-15 billion Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), in which Boeing has fielded the F 18, and another US military giant, Lockheed Martin, has offered the Indian version of F 16 designated F 16 IN Viper. IAF is looking for 126 aircraft, with an option for an additional 63.

Four other aircraft, European consortium's Eurofighter, Russia's Mig 35, Sweden's Gripen and the French Rafale are in the fray.

Notably, IAF has just commissioned three new Boeing Business Jets (BBJ) for ferrying VVIPs, replacing an earlier set of three older Boeing 737s acquired during the 1980s.

Both the BBJs and P8-I are built on the Boeing 737 platforms, which are being flown in India for some 40 years and are easy to maintain. However, these are new generation aircraft are equipped with totally brand new systems. The BBJ for instance, which is specifically to ferry the president, vice president and prime minister, can also serve as an airborne command and communication centre in a war.

The same is also true of the P8-I, which is designated as a Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA). But its profile is much wider than the name suggests: it can locate hostile submarines, and can attack them as well as small or large ships near or far from the coast.

Lall said that Boeing is committed to provide continuous technology insertions on all its systems in accordance with agreements with the buyer countries.

Notably, US companies develop technologies, mostly at the initiative of and funding by the US armed forces. But they are allowed to sell them to foreign countries only with the approval of the US Departments of Defence and State.
 

Soham

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Spy plane ?
I wouldn't call it that, its a surveillance and ASW aircraft.
 

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