Opinion Su-57 MMRCA choice over Rafale ????

[WARREN SS]

Pros of Su 57
-We get a lackluster 5 gen plane that we can ourselves make 5 years behind.
-We get some TOT for sub system that are significantly behind West

Better than Rafale F3R and F4 in every Aspect in terms of RCS And radar And internal bays
360 degree radar coverage

 

[WARREN SS]

4.5+ will Rule the sky uptil 2050 and we already have smart warfare system upcoming for these 4.5+ gen.

But if you getting 5 th generation at price of 4.5 gen its better to stick to 5 th gen

 

[WARREN SS]

-They have 1 trillion budget
-F35 is the next obvious step after f22 which is 20 years old project.
-F35 is also meant for export.
-F35 is a bomb truck.

U want to emulate America than have the MIC of America. They buy their own stuff we choke on foreign maal.

Our budget in not shrinking either by end this decade it Will reach 180-200 billion $ with 8-9 trillion $ economy Us I want Emulate US And India should become hegemonic like them that was what chankya envisioned I am not saying that Buy Su-57 additionally i said if there Scope spending 15 billion $ on MMRCA deal better spend it on 5th gen over 4.5 generation

 

[Suryavanshi]

French offering us nothing better in terms weapon package what we don't have it in MKI
or we are not developing go

BrahMos-A

The BrahMos-A is a modified air-launched variant of the missile which will arm the Sukhoi PAK-FA of the Indian air force as a standoff weapon. To reduce the missile’s weight to 2.55 tons, many modifications were made like using a smaller booster, adding fins for airborne stability after launch, and relocating the connector. It can be released from the height of 500 to 14,000 meters (1,640 to 46,000 ft). After release, the missile free falls for 100–150 meters, then goes into a cruise phase at 14,000 meters and finally the terminal phase at 15 meters.

BrahMos-NG

BrahMos-NG (Next Generation) is a mini version based on the existing BrahMos, will have same 290 km range and mach 3.5 speed but it will weigh around 1.5 tons, 5 meters in length and 50 cm in diameter, making BrahMos-NG 50 percent lighter and three meters shorter than its predecessor. The system is expected to be inducted in the year 2017. BrahMos-NG will have lesser RCS (radar cross section) compared to its predecessor, making it harder for air defense systems to locate and engage the target. BrahMos-NG will have Land, Air, ship-borne and Submarine tube-launched variants. First test flight is expected to take place in 2017–18. Initially Brahmos-NG was called as Brahmos-M.

BrahMos-II

BrahMos-II is a hypersonic cruise missile currently under development and is estimated to have a range of 290 km. Like the BrahMos, the range of BrahMos II has also been limited to 290 km to comply with the MTCR. With a speed of Mach 7, it will have double the speed of the current BrahMos missile, and it will be the fastest hypersonic missile in the world. Development could take 7–8 years to complete.

7 Kh-59MK2

The Kh-59MK2 cruise missile bears little external resemblance to the earlier Kh-59 (AS-18 Kazoo), which is a conventional glide bomb with an externally mounted Saturn 36MT turbofan engine, but uses the same powerplant, warhead and guidance system. It has a redesigned airframe to reduce its radar signature and fit in the Sukhoi T-50’s weapon bays. The 1,700-lb. weapon has a design range of up to 160 nm.

The Kh-59MK2 features a stealth-contoured nose with short, swept horizontal chines, which avoids a radar cross-section (RCS) spike from a rounded nose but takes up less space in the length-limited (4.2-meter-long) T-50 bays than a pointed or wedge nose. Flat sides result in strong RCS spikes at 90-deg. to the missile’s axis, but if the weapon is at low altitude these are not exploitable by an airborne radar, because a radar at that position cannot detect any Doppler signal from the missile. The flush inlet is located under the body.

A third, modified weapon was the Kh-58UShKE-IIR (imaging infrared). The basic Kh-58UShKE, seen at previous MAKS shows, is a modernized, shortened, folding-wing version of the veteran Mach 4 Kh-58 (AS-11 Kilter). The new model adds two IIR sensors under the forebody, allowing the weapon to engage emitters that have been shut down.

The new weapons underscore the fact that the T-50 cannot be regarded as an analog to the Lockheed Martin F-22. It is designed for both air-to-air and air-to-surface missions, with the ability to carry four large weapons internally (versus two 1,000-lb. bombs on the F-22) as well as having provision for Kh-31 anti-radar missiles under the wings.

Anti-Ship Missile.

KH 35

Kh-35UE (AS-20 “Kayak”) anti-ship missile

Kh-35UE (AS-20 “Kayak”) anti-ship missile (wings extended)

The Zvezda Kh-35U (‘Star’, Russian: Х-35У, AS-20 ‘Kayak’) is the jet-launched version of a Russian subsonic anti-ship missile. The same missile can also be launched from helicopters, surface ships and coastal defence batteries with the help of a rocket booster, in which case it is known as Uran (‘Uranus’, SS-N-25 ‘Switchblade’, GRAU 3M24 ) or Bal (‘Ball’, SSC-6 ‘Sennight’, GRAU 3K60). It is also nicknamed “Harpoonski”, because it looks like and functions very similar to the American Harpoon Anti-Ship missile. It is designed to attack vessels up to 5000 tonnes.

The Kh-35 missile is a subsonic weapon featuring a normal aerodynamic configuration with cruciform wings and fins and a semisubmerged air duct intake. The propulsion unit is a turbofan engine. The missile is guided to its target at the final leg of the trajectory by commands fed from the active radar homing head and the radio altimeter.

Target designation data can be introduced into the missile from the launch aircraft or ship or external sources. Flight mission data is inserted into the missile control system after input of target coordinates. An inertial system controls the missile in flight, stabilizes it at an assigned altitude and brings it to a target location area. At a certain target range, the homing head is switched on to search for, lock on and track the target. The inertial control system then turns the missile toward the target and changes its flight altitude to an extremely low one. At this altitude, the missile continues the process of homing by the data fed from the homing head and the inertial control system until a hit is obtained.

The Kh-35 anti-ship missile can be employed in fair and adverse weather conditions at sea states up to 5-6, by day and night, under enemy fire and electronic countermeasures.

The Kh-35’s aerodynamic configuration is optimized for high subsonic-speed sea-skimming flight to ensure stealthy characteristics of the missile. The missile has low signatures thanks to its small dimensions, sea-skimming capability and a special guidance algorithm ensuring highly secure operational modes of the active radar seeker.

Its ARGS-35E active radar seeker operates in both single-and-multiple missile launch modes, acquiring and locking on targets at a maximum range of up to 20 km. A new radar seeker, Gran-KE have been developed by SPE Radar MMS and will be replacing the existing ARGS-35E X band seeker.

Weapon Configurations Of PAK-FA

I dont see anything here that we are already not developing on our own. Do u see anything?
Also french will not mate any weapon on Russian platform that they have already told.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Better than Rafale F3R and F4 in every Aspect in terms of RCS And radar And internal bays
360 degree radar coverage

View attachment 74663

Please compare this to prototype of AMCA when it comes out we are not looking for any kind of Stealth imports.

 

[WARREN SS]

I dont see anything here that we are already not developing on our own. Do u see anything?
Also french will not mate any weapon on Russian platform that they have already told.

If that case Rafale need to unnecessary better upgrade 270 MKI With AESA And Next gen BVR's

 

[Suryavanshi]

But if you getting 5 th generation at price of 4.5 gen its better to stick to 5 th gen

Su 57 is only borderline 5th gen and Rafale is 4.5 gen+ almost the same thing with significantly better electronics

 

[WARREN SS]

Please compare this to prototype of AMCA when it comes out we are not looking for any kind of Stealth imports.

But my opinion on buying su-57 over 4.5 gen rafale not AMCA Because Rafale is in MMCA deal

 

[WARREN SS]

Su 57 is only borderline 5th gen and Rafale is 4.5 gen+ almost the same thing with significantly better electronics

Su-57 better and more powerful AESA with GAN technology with 360 degree radar coverage
reduced RCS
internal bays
BVR with AESA seeker
In all aspects its better than rafale +Futuristic development scope that lacks in 4.5 gen rafale

 

[Suryavanshi]

If that case Rafale need to unnecessary better upgrade 270 MKI With AESA And Next gen BVR's

Sir I have already mentioned the pros of Rafale in the previous page, please counter each one of them.
That is my reasoning for supporting Rafale over Su 57

But my opinion on buying su-57 over 4.5 gen rafale not AMCA Because Rafale is in MMCA deal

Sir your opinion will cost us way more and bring nothing much to the table.

 

[Illusive]

A. Russia is strategically allied to China, it would be stupid move.

B. IAF would have made its interests visible if it was impressed with Su57.

C. We don't need anymore imported planes, especially from Russia, and kill our own aerospace industry. S400 is the last major deal with Ruskies. They have made their choice, if the Galwan incident isn't an eye opener, maybe Vikky fiasco would be good reminder of Russian loot.

 

[WARREN SS]

Sir your opinion will cost us way more and bring nothing much to the table.

Russian is getting 76 Su-57 at 7-8 billion $ While We ready to spend 15 billion $ on 4.5 gen

 

[WARREN SS]

A. Russia is strategically allied to China, it would be stupid move.

Yes that is Why India just spend 7 billion $ on S-400 And Nuclear SSM deal if they are not trustworthy

B. IAF would have made its interests visible if it was impressed with Su57.

Dhanoa said option are on table After Seeing it in service with russians

'IAF could consider Su-57 stealth jet after it enters Russian service'

ACM B.S. Dhanoa made the statement to the official newspaper of Russia's military

www.theweek.in

C. We don't need anymore imported planes, especially from Russia, and kill our own aerospace industry. S400 is the last major deal with Ruskies. They have made their choice, if the Galwan incident isn't an eye opener, maybe Vikky fiasco would be good reminder of Russian loot.

Conjecture Western Import lobbyist of Boeing And LM damaged LCA more than Russians Infact russians helped us in Cruise missiles And ballistic missiles And Nuclear submarine Technology

 

[Suryavanshi]

Russian is getting 76 Su-57 at 7-8 billion $ While We ready to spend 15 billion $ on 4.5 gen

Sir What price do they quote to us? price to foreign sellers is never the same and is the deal finalized.
Does it include all the weapon package spares, infra, training, consultancy, reinvestment?

Su 57 offers nothing that we are already not working on.

had u pitched the idea before the finalization of Rafael deal this might have made sense but it does not anymore

 

[WARREN SS]

Sir What price do they quote to us? price to foreign sellers is never the same and is the deal finalized.
Does it include all the weapon package spares, infra, training, consultancy, reinvestment?

Su 57 offers nothing that we are already not working on.

had u pitched the idea before the finalization of Rafael deal this might have made sense but it does not anymore

Anything Less than 15 billion $ Will be commendable if we Kept option open in MMRCA

MMRCA is Still open with F-18 ,gripen others My opinion was just adding them If MMRCA cancelled I will don't have Any Assertions.

 

[Flying Dagger]

AMCA is separate Project it has separate funding

If MMRCA will not impact its induction how Will su-57 ???

There is nothing separate... We have a budget and everything will have to be worked out from it.

Su 57 is still an unfinished product by the time it becomes mature that's 2030 around we will have our own AMCA entering production.

With 300 Su 300 Tejas in Pipeline 36-72 Rafale another 250 or so AMCA will fulfill our squad requirements and replace Mig 29/Mirage/Jags and some old Sukhois.

And what it costed to Russia will not what it cost to us. A batch of 114 will easily be around 20 bn + and then we will ask for modifications etc which will cost etc.

Su 57 is indeed a good platform but Su lost the chance to sell when they refused TOT to India after promising it.

Russian companies have a habit of promising one thing and not delivering it. Have you seen the exorbitant cost they asked as license fees for T-90 ? 1.2 bn dollar that's insane not just that we know Su 57 will end up in Chinese stable eventually and they'll know it in and out.

So better get 2-3 Rafale sad and focus on Tejas and co for now.

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Both are 4.5++ gen and non stealth.

 

[Pig benis on sushy]

not that we should get those 36 and add those numbers to 72

I am talking MMRCA deal

MMRCA deal is Pegged at 15 billion $
If it's gone through let's say some were 2023 or 2024

Why not SU-57 over any 4. 5 th generation fighters
114 0f these platform with Indian touch like mki can be statergical booster.

Russians just bought 76 of these at 7-8 billion $

I wish su57 was as stealthy as in paper can it supercruise just see it's interbay and compare it to F22 structure keep one thing in mind F22 is a bit small compared to su57 Ruskis + their jet engines is enough red flag to not buy su57 IAF operates many Soviet and Russian system if su57 was that good they would have considered it buying as infrastructure is available but sad reality is su57 is only good on paper

 

[Hari Sud]

Swarm drones can easily taken out by Emp impulse bomb. Or better CCM platforms

The problem. With drones are they are controlled by Control stations

Unlike America who plethora of these stations
And satellite links

Countries who poses advanced Cruise missile and Stand off weapons can easily take out these command and control centre's

And Can Anahilate it once for all.

‘Russian salesman......

 

[vasusuman]

Su 57 has future. Rafale is present.Su 57 will add more value over a period of time.As a fighter,i will choose Su57,with belief that their I30 engine will be at par or near western ones.

However,dont expect Russians to give any real TOT.They are still going with Congress era thought that Indians have no option.Still in thoughts that they will give work to PSU Entities to assemble and corrupt MOD will oblige,with no real technology transfer.This arrogance made them loose Su57 to India,which would have been finalized long time back.Still confused whether they should trust India,China or no one.

One time,i thought them as real friends but seeing that even all ammunitions is being imported and India is only doing assembly work,shows that it is the money they sought more.

With us giving French order of a total of 114 Rafale,i think there is a real chance that Indian will be an actual partner to Safran Engine and get know-how to manufacture them.