Numerical strength and Operational status of Tanks in Europe

[Akim]

I doubt if any single romanian tank is modern.
TR is junk
AMX-30 is old and i one generation whit Leopard-1...
For that reson I don't put romania in those compare

I think that we should talk about all of the armored forces of Europe, not only to show a "pretty picture" about comparison of tank brigades of Europe and Russia. Romania is a NATO member and has weak tanks.

 

[Armand2REP]

What is funny? Any possible combo 3 bigger European NATO members have more modern tank then Russia...

Depends on what you consider modern. None of those countries would accept Russia's production tanks.

 

[militarysta]

I think that we should talk about all of the armored forces of Europe, not only to show a "pretty picture" about comparison of tank brigades of Europe and Russia. Romania is a NATO member and has weak tanks.

It's true - but put all junk in not so relevant IMHO. What give in all scale for example polish 350 T-72M1 on standard circa 1979? Or Leopard-1 or AMX-30, or 38 Czech "new" T-72MCz (very advanced from the other hand).
In fact significant tank potential have only metnioned countries.

 

[militarysta]

None of those countries would accept Russia's production tanks.

?


ps. term " quite modern" IMHO means at least Leopard-2A4 level on west, and T-72BW on east (or T-64BW) term "modern" will be good for modernizated III gen tank or gen III+ so for Leclerc, Leo-2A5-A6, Challenger-2, and for T-72BA1-A3 (of coure inferior in compare to western IIIgen) or T-90A (the same as western IIIgen).

 

[Akim]

Leopard1А5 and AMX-30В2 can be considered quite acceptable tanks to fight the "Soviet" MBT.

 

[militarysta]

And we shoud consider fact that in case of emergency NATO will not be monolith (unfortunatly...) more or less only 3-5 countries will be able to sent tanks in some region (UK, France, Germany, Denmark, Poland, maybe Spain) more or less Greece, Turkey, Norway, Italy etc rather will not take part in any possible war. IMHO only countries "tried" in Afganistan will do any active action in war time. It's really significant for countries in central Europe, or smaller countries in NATO in diffciult neiberhoods (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc).

 

[militarysta]

Leopard1А5 and AMX-30В2 can be considered quite acceptable tanks to fight the "Soviet" MBT.

Against T-64BW or T-72BW I will not put broken coin (single one) on mantioned tanks ;-) To olde, to weak, slighty better FCS will not ballance lack of armour, or inferior gun and mostly ammo.

 

[Armand2REP]

?


ps. term " quite modern" IMHO means at least Leopard-2A4 level on west, and T-72BW on east (or T-64BW) term "modern" will be good for modernizated III gen tank or gen III+ so for Leclerc, Leo-2A5-A6, Challenger-2, and for T-72BA1-A3 (of coure inferior in compare to western IIIgen) or T-90A (the same as western IIIgen).

You can't have two different standards when the question is comparing Russian tanks to our tanks. T-90A is just an upgraded T-72. T-90S is the only tank you can hope to be considered modern by Western standards yet it still doesn't have BMS.

 

[militarysta]

You can't have two different standards when the question is comparing Russian tanks to our tanks. T-90A is just an upgraded T-72. T-90S is the only tank you can hope to be considered modern by Western standards yet it still doesn't have BMS.

Lol. It's opposite. Ob.188 (T-90S or "cast turret) is refresh T-72B model 1989 whit Irtysz FCS from T-80U, T-90A (Ob.188A1/A2) is tank whit completly new welded turret.

 

[Akim]

Against T-64BW or T-72BW I will not put broken coin (single one) on mantioned tanks ;-) To olde, to weak, slighty better FCS will not ballance lack of armour, or inferior gun and mostly ammo.

I do not agree. Even French caliber guns 90-mm able to fight with tanks series "B" if they have a ATGM . Therefore it is necessary to take into account even the AMX-10RC.

 

[Armand2REP]

Lol. It's opposite. Ob.188 (T-90S or "cast turret) is refresh T-72B model 1989 whit Irtysz FCS from T-80U, T-90A (Ob.188A1/A2) is tank whit completly new welded turret.

Since when does having a welded turret make it modern? T-90S turret is a generation ahead of the T-90A.

 

[militarysta]

Since when does having a welded turret make it modern? T-90S turret is a generation ahead of the T-90A.

LOL, nope - you have no knowledges about russian tank - aren't you?

T-90S (Ob.188) have:
- older FCS
- worse stabilistaion
- worse gun
- less protected
Cas steel turret is teh sam as in T-72B model 1989.
T-90A (Ob.188A1/A2) have new turret system whit welded turret taken from Ob.187 - history of this turret is longer and more sophisticated byt it's diffrent story. Anyway - you obviosly have no idea about Ob.188 and Ob.188A1/A2 and turrets on both tanks.

btw; please - don't argue -just read btvt on Chlopotov blog about both tanks. For you it will be enought.

 

[Damian]

Armand just confuses T-90 with far more modern T-90A.

 

[syncro]

Italy phase out the last 120 Leopard 1A5 and start upgrade 150 C1 Ariete (for 2 armoured brigades) with new power pack (1600 HP), armour (about 60 ton) and optronics ... the upgrade of first batch of 50 Ariete start this year... in 2015 starting enter in service new 150 B1-Centauro 2 (38 ton, 780 HP, 120 mm gun) wheeled tank destroyer (same optronics of upgraded C1 Ariete)..

in the near future Italy had only 150 upgrades C1 Ariete as MTB

 

[militarysta]

Russia windrawth all T-80"xx" family tanks, so now we have in Russia:

Russia
~225 T-90A
~130 T-90
~250-270 T-72B3
~90 T-72B1
~725-756 T-72BA

Modern or western Leo-2A5 or M1A2 level are only T-90A, quite modern (in term firepower) are T-72B3 too, so we have circa 500 modern tank in Russia now.
More or less Russia have the same number of the really modern tanks as Germany (Leo-2A6 vs T-90A) and teh same number (circa 500) quite modern tank as Poland and Germany together (Leo-2A6 + Leo-2A5 (polish) and Leo-2A4PL (polish)).
Any three NATO countries whit significnat tank fleet have more modern tanks then Russia. The wrold is ending

For compare rest of the central or estern Europe countries whit significnat tank fleets:

Poland

"Offcial":
128 Leopard-2A4
230 PT-91
351 T-72M1

All: ~700 tanks (on the paper...)

In reality:
128 Leo-2A4
196 PT-91
junk (T-72M1) can't be count as ready to fight couse it's funny to use T-72M1 now...

All: ~324 tanks (without junk called T-72M1)

Soon:
105 Leopad-2A5 :cool2:
142 Leopard-2A4 (mod to 2A4PL)
196 PT-91
all T-72M1 will be scraped or sent to yunkyard

All: 443 tanks soon.


Belarus:

~360x T-72BW
part of those tank are in reserve I have no idea how many are in operational status.


Ukraina:

106x T-64BM Bułat
224x T-64BW
320x T-64BW (in reserve or with doubtfull ability to fight)

All: ~330 tanks in service (106 tanks quite modern - BM Bulat), propably rest of the 320 T-64BW will be withdrawn soon. .


Finland

92x Leopard-2A4
some T-72M1 or T-55 (in reserve?)

Soon:
92x leopard-2A4
100x Leopard-2A6 (ex Dutch)

All: 192 tanks

 

[Broccoli]

All Finnish T-72's were scrapped years ago but some T-55's are used in OPFOR duties.

 

[militarysta]

Update

Russia:

Minimum nubers of tank "on duty":

~225 T-90A
~130 T-90
~250-270 T-72B3
~90 T-72B1
~725-756 T-72BA
~200-400 T-80U (know, large discrepancies)

so at least circa 1500 tanks in active servise and after repairs or worn but relatively young
Of course apar this above we have circa 500 T-80BW and some number of the T-72B (again circa 500) but status is not sure.


Poland:

In Poland we have sucht tank batallions in units:

- 1.Warszawska Brygada Pancerna im. Bohaterów Westerplatte - (1 battalion PT-91)
- 21.Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich im.gen.bryg.Mieczysława Boruty-Spiechowicza - (1 battalion T-72M1)
- 10.Brygada Kawalerii Pancernej im.gen.broni Stanisława Maczka - (2 battalions Leopard 2A4)
- 34.Brygada Kawalerii Pancernej im. Hetmana Wielkiego Koronnego Jana Zamoyskiego - (2 battalions PT-91 (soon ex german 2A5)
- 2.Brygada Zmechanizowana Legionów im.Marszałka Józefa Piłsudskiego - (1 battalion PT-91)
- 9.Brygada Kawalerii Pancernej im.Króla Stefana Batorego - (2 battalions T-72M)
- 15. Giżycka Brygada Zmechanizowana im.Zawiszy Czarnego - (1 battalion T-72M)
- 20.Bartoszycka Brygada Zmechanizowana im.Hetmana Polnego Litewskiego Wincentego Gosiewskiego - (1 battalion T-72M)

In Poland they are two structures about tank nubers in tank batalions
I structure - 58 tanks in batalion (Leopard-2)
II structure - 53 tanks in batalion (T-72M1/PT-91)

So now we have:
2x Leopard-2A4 batallions eacht with 58 tanks, so 2x58 = 116
4x PT-91 batallions eacht whit 53 tanks, so 4x53 = 212
5x T-72M1 battalions eacht whit 53 tanks, so 5x53 = 265

So in theory in active service it will be now 593 tanks, BUT there are some additional tanks in trening units or others -for example 12 Leopard-2A4 in tank school or simmilar PT-91 number in other tank school, etc.
So whole tank number is over 620 tanks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
In close future two ex-german Leopard-2A5 battalions will be ready and moved to 34.Armoured Cavalery Bde. so used there now PT-91 will be moved to other units, and part (or all) T-72M1 will be withdrawn.
Wery soon (2015) in Polish Armoured Corps will be:
4x Leopard-2A4PL/2A5 batallions eacht with 58 tanks, so 4x58 = 232 Leoprds + aditional ~15 tanks
4x PT-91 batallions eacht whit 53 tanks, so 4x53 = 212 + aditional circa 12 tanks
And this is sure minimum number of tanks: 444 in service + circa 26-28 in other units so whole number 470 tanks.

Future of the T-72M1 is unkown - at least two batallions will be withdrawn so T-72M1 number will be definetly under 159, but it's very possible that all T-72M1 will be withdrawn without successor before 2018 -due to budgetary matters, and structural reforms in Polish Army.

 

[Ray]

What does Numerical strength and Operational status of Tanks in Europe to be the index of victory in battle?

They are mere statistics.

 

[militarysta]

They are mere statistics.

Yes, it's pure stats. Nothing more, but nothing less.

 

[Ray]

Yes, it's pure stats. Nothing more, but nothing less.

I apologise.

I did not know that this was a thread that was solely to tote up data on numbers and nothing more than an exercise for the archives for reference of Military Numerical Totes.

I thought is would be interesting to know the application.and success thereof that the adversaries could achieve if this might was used to prove that holding such military arsenal was not merely for the museum, more so, given the most unstable conditions that are happening in Europe.

Analysis, even if not very accurate, makes interesting for thought that mere numbers that one can always google for, unless it is for the archives.

If this thread is for numbers for the archives, then my profound apologies!