Number of balistic missiles

tharikiran

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indian ramjet engine still not operational...
Yes, You are right . It's not operational

All I know from the net is some good results with regards to the critical components needed for this technology demonstrator.
 

Arjak

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yes, avatar's by isro.there is an drdo version too.i meant,going hepersonic is fine but the fact that,the range said,for the hypersonic cruise missile,wd be hard to achive
 
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with a nuclear triad i doubt this number is accurate, our ATV will be carrying 12 so that would mean 1/2 is on the ATV doubtful, with the plutonium laying around and many solid state missiles we can get big numbers in a hurry.
 

p2prada

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I don't agree with this part-- "A ballistic missile confirms delivery."

This is a definition of ballistic missile from Wikipedia---"A ballistic missile is a missile that follows a sub-orbital ballistic flightpath with the objective of delivering a warhead "

My point is if it takes time to go into orbit/suborbit and then come down, then it gives the other party the time to detect it and fire their anti-ballistic missiles.

Just my 2 cents there.
ECM and ECCM are employed on missiles too. BMs, or in particular, ICBMs depend on their high speed for delivery.

Normally, it is very difficult to take out BMs in initial flight(cause they are too far away), mid course interception is very difficult (because of reduced tracking abilities by radars). So, this leaves the terminal phase. In this phase the warheads free fall under gravity. This is the time, when the warhead can actually be intercepted and the sheer speed gives the advantage to the warhead. Till date, no capable ABM capability exists in the world.

I would want India to develop hypersonic cruise missiles . Next gen BRAHMOS with a range of 2000 to 3000 Kms. That will be game changer to me. You just can't intercept it. Imagine a terrain hugging hypersonic BRAHMOS. :)

Regards,
Hari
2k to 3k breaks MTCR. Brahmos 2 will only have a range of 290km as its predecessor.

Terrain hugging at hypersonic speeds cannot be achieved.
 

tharikiran

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ECM and ECCM are employed on missiles too. BMs, or in particular, ICBMs depend on their high speed for delivery.

Normally, it is very difficult to take out BMs in initial flight(cause they are too far away), mid course interception is very difficult (because of reduced tracking abilities by radars). So, this leaves the terminal phase. In this phase the warheads free fall under gravity. This is the time, when the warhead can actually be intercepted and the sheer speed gives the advantage to the warhead. Till date, no capable ABM capability exists in the world.



2k to 3k breaks MTCR. Brahmos 2 will only have a range of 290km as its predecessor.

Terrain hugging at hypersonic speeds cannot be achieved.
I had a question prada. Usually its said, once a missile is launched it can be detected from a long distance. We see that in movies all the time :) -- "Missile launched and tracking it"

And counter missile being launched. Enlighten please.
 
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p2p Brahmos 2 is almost a complete indigenous missile so there is no violation of MTCR AFAIK and the range is beyond 290k

Man and War: Brahmos 2: Development Path

Brahmos 2: Development Path
Do a search on ‘Brahmos’ and you will get to know that it is a cruise-missile jointly developed by India and Russia, that it is ‘universal supersonic cruise missile’ and many believe it’s potency lies in its supersonic speed which makes it difficult to intercept. All this is a kind of feel-good news stories given by reporters who have a lot many other things to cover and we will not get into criticising them. We will talk about Brahmos and its future.

Brahmos cruise missile, though one of its kind in Asia, has a very severe limitation – its range. At a mere officially-quoted range of 280-300km, and 120 km in lo-lo-lo trajectory (a flying path in which missile always flies close of ground/sea) it is difficult to use the missile from sea-based systems to land targets without getting dangerously close to the enemy.

Speculations are rife about development of Brahmos-2, a hypersonic cruise missile (mach 7) with a range of about 1000km. This range will undoubtedly gives an upper hand to the navy and army over at least Pakistan because cruise missiles are relatively cheaper than ballistic missiles and can be used for carrying conventional war heads; this essentially translates to having a very high lethality without the fear of involving nuclear weapons. However, we must not be jumping with joy because firstly Brahmos was hugely successful because Indians had got the technical know-how about propulsion and guidance from Russia, this will not be the case for Brahmos 2 because Russia is a signer in MTCR which limits transferring missiles having range greater than 300km to other countries.

What might be the development of path of Brahmos 2 or, to quote President Kalam - Brahmos Mark-II? Assuming Brahmos 2 will indeed have the capabilities of flying at hypersonic speeds then at this point of time India does not have any system capable of cruising at this speed either in military or civil domain. Development of hypersonic plane Avatar is in progress by ISRO which will, technically speaking, give India the capability of developing a hypersonic cruise missile but ISRO is a civilian agency and as such does not have anything to do with defence organizations and it is not advisable to make ISRO serve a dual purpose because of two reasons:
1. ISRO is gradually making an entry into commercial satellite launch market and a majority of countries will stop using ISRO’s services, even though cheaper, for the fear of funding India’s defence establishments. In fact, many analysts feel that USA should dissuade other countries from using ISRO’s launch vehicles even now (page 18, http://www.npec-web.org/Essays/060207SpeierICBM.pdf).
2. ISRO will stop getting any assistance or special materials for the construction of its satellites, which will gravely limit India’s civilian satellite usage including weather-prediction.

Given these facts, it will be fair to assume that Indian government will dare not transfer the technology from civil agency to military agency. Unlike what was done in 1980s when ISRO’s SLV was converted into missile, because ISRO’s stakes were very low at that time. Having said this, there are many covert methods of transferring technology such as, at the very basic level, transferring ISRO scientists to DRDO.
Coming back to the development path Brahmos 2 might take, reports suggest that Avatar will make its test flight around December, 2008. Moving ahead from December, 2008 I feel that another 10 years will go in development of Brahmos 2 (given the dubious track record of DRDO this is a very optimistic estimate) because I wonder if Russia will ever agree to providing technology which will breach MTCR, such technology if at all transferred will be done undercover. And then from test-flight to induction into armed forces again may take 5-6 years (as it did in case of Brahmos).
Given the scenario, we are still about 16 years away from having a hypersonic cruise missile, it is likely that many other countries would have acquired cruise missiles by that time, India too may have joined the group of developed countries and Delhi Police may start accepting credit cards for taking bribes!
Posted by Vinay Pandey at 10:52 AM
 

p2prada

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I had a question prada. Usually its said, once a missile is launched it can be detected from a long distance. We see that in movies all the time :) -- "Missile launched and tracking it"

And counter missile being launched. Enlighten please.
Was that James Bond or Star wars?

The US is working on a satellite based tracking system called the SBIRS. It will consist of 24 satellites and will look out for IR emissions. This will be post 2012. So, until then the movie gimmicks are Hollywood inventions. Nevertheless, if US willingly breaks countless treaties against militarization of space, no counter missile will launched immediately after missile launch.(So, a space based ABM system is out of the question, both morally and technologically.) SAMS have limited ranges, the highest is the S-400 with a range of 400km. How do you expect to stop a missile being fired from a distance of even 500km or 10000km if your SAM works only upto 400km?
 

p2prada

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p2p Brahmos 2 is almost a complete indigenous missile so there is no violation of MTCR AFAIK and the range is beyond 290k
I doubt it sir. Russians are involved in Brahmos-2. We will be using Russian engines and airframe again. The JV decision for Russia is political. The Russians are being pressurized by the Americans not to work on the missile, but that pressure will not work on India.

Without American Pressure the Russians would have gone ahead with the development of the 800km version on their own. MTCR restricted that to the 290km version when India became involved. So, a hypersonic Brahmos will again be restricted to 290km.

If we have to extend the range, we will have to work on our very own version. But, I don't see that happening for the next 10 years. Shourya will be our best hope for a 1000km capability.

The Hindu Business Line : BrahMos-2 will see design, development of hypersonic missiles: CEO
India has embarked on project BrahMos-2, which will see the design and development of hypersonic missiles, according to Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer (CEO) of BrahMos Aerospace.

The project launched jointly with Russia, under BrahMos, will see more than 20 Russian institutes and industry and a bigger number of Indian industry participating.

The hypersonic missiles, will fly at Mach 5-7 speeds ( one Mach is equivalent to velocity of sound or 330 metres per second), Dr Pillai told Business Line here.
Different versions

Already joint teams from India and Russia have started working on designing different versions of the missiles. The project will be of five-year duration.

Both the Indian and the Russian Government have assured adequate funding and support, he said.
Sadly, Brahmos-2 is restricted by MTCR. India does not care for the MTCR(its similar to NPT and CTBT). But, the Russians are sensitive when it comes to MTCR. Especially considering Russian apprehensions on the ABM shield in Europe. They don't want to be seen proliferating missile technology, especially to India.
 
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maybe russians can work on the two versions on the official MCTR version and the other backdoor long range screw MCTR version i am sure this is what is happening, just like AKULA were not suppose to be delivered but NERPA will also be arriving soon, why worry about treaties when US influence is on a steep decline and countries violate NPT like it is a joke,than MCTR is an even bigger joke.
 

tharikiran

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Was that James Bond or Star wars?

The US is working on a satellite based tracking system called the SBIRS. It will consist of 24 satellites and will look out for IR emissions. This will be post 2012. So, until then the movie gimmicks are Hollywood inventions. Nevertheless, if US willingly breaks countless treaties against militarization of space, no counter missile will launched immediately after missile launch.(So, a space based ABM system is out of the question, both morally and technologically.) SAMS have limited ranges, the highest is the S-400 with a range of 400km. How do you expect to stop a missile being fired from a distance of even 500km or 10000km if your SAM works only upto 400km?
It has been said by many people that ICBM's are vulnerable during re-entry.
What do have to say about that?

If US launches a ICBM, obviously the S-400 won't be able to hit it in the initial phase.
It's only upon re-entry that S-400 can do anything or stands a chance

If it has multiple warheads, then it's even more difficult to hit it.
 

p2prada

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The Russians are working on their supersonic and hypersonic designs using India as Proxy. We don't have a history in cruise missiles or Scramjet engines to start manufacturing tested products even before other developed countries like the US. We have a decent involvement in the JV. Software, Guidance are all our own. But, propulsion and airframe is Russian(for both supersonic and hypersonic versions).
 
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It has been said by many people that ICBM's are vulnerable during re-entry.
What do have to say about that?

If US launches a ICBM, obviously the S-400 won't be able to hit it in the initial phase.
It's only upon re-entry that S-400 can do anything or stands a chance

If it has multiple warheads, then it's even more difficult to hit it.
only X-band radar maybe effective against ICBM THAAD type systems.
 

p2prada

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It has been said by many people that ICBM's are vulnerable during re-entry.
What do have to say about that?
Vulnerable from what? If its ABM then NO.

ICBMs MAY tend to veer of course during initial launch. Once the warhead starts falling, nothing can stop it. It may fall far from its target because of faulty guidance systems or seekers. Manufacturing defects exist too. But, "vulnerable during re-entry" is a myth. New materials easily defeat the heat generated.

If US launches a ICBM, obviously the S-400 won't be able to hit it in the initial phase.
It's only upon re-entry that S-400 can do anything or stands a chance

If it has multiple warheads, then it's even more difficult to hit it.
That's the reason you need to have enough missiles to counter every warhead. MIRVs have a very logical reason for its use. MIRVs are designed to simply overwhelm the enemies radar with numbers. Enough radars and missiles will deter even MIRVs.

A single Swordfish(Indian Greenpine) is capable of tracking 200 targets according to 2004 figures. That's 200 warheads. Technology helps defeat numbers. Technology still needs to mature more in order to beat gravity. until then, ICBMs are unstoppable.
 
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mohan India is not a signatory of NPT or MCTR so we are not restricted by any treaties that were created to restrict other countries, if Russians are selling and they are signatory that is their decision if they want to honor it or not nothing for us to decide.
 

p2prada

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maybe russians can work on the two versions on the official MCTR version and the other backdoor long range screw MCTR version i am sure this is what is happening, just like AKULA were not suppose to be delivered but NERPA will also be arriving soon, why worry about treaties when US influence is on a steep decline and countries violate NPT like it is a joke than MCTR is an even bigger joke.
That possibility always exists. NK has proliferated missiles to Pak. Time will tell. I guess.
 
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That's the reason you need to have enough missiles to counter every warhead. MIRVs have a very logical reason for its use. MIRVs are designed to simply overwhelm the enemies radar with numbers. Enough radars and missiles will deter even MIRVs.

A single Swordfish(Indian Greenpine) is capable of tracking 200 targets according to 2004 figures. That's 200 warheads. Technology helps defeat numbers. Technology still needs to mature more in order to beat gravity. until then, ICBMs are unstoppable.

this is the reason we will be test our own ICBM in 2010 and have made AGNI 3 MIRV.
 
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That possibility always exists. NK has proliferated missiles to Pak. Time will tell. I guess.
it is almost guaranteed no need for another 290km missile and hypersonic on top of it when we have shauriya which is not a cruise missile but serves the same purpose, and spend billions on redundancy the govt is not that stupid.
 

p2prada

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this is the reason we will be test our own ICBM in 2010 and have made AGNI 3 MIRV.
True. We have to make it operational on our ATVs as quickly as possible. Our enemies have restricted surface to air capability. We have to utilize that advantage to the most. MIRVs and hopefully maneuverable re-entry vehicles is the key to a potent sea-based deterrence.
 
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True. We have to make it operational on our ATVs as quickly as possible. Our enemies have restricted surface to air capability. We have to utilize that advantage to the most. MIRVs and hopefully maneuverable re-entry vehicles is the key to a potent sea-based deterrence.
also sukhois with air borne brahmos is similar to a long range brahmos with no MCTR violation.
 

p2prada

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it is almost guaranteed no need for another 290km missile and hypersonic on top of it when we have shauriya which is not a cruise missile but serves the same purpose, and spend billions on redundancy the govt is not that stupid.
:blum3: to MTCR.

I would love to see the faces of the American and Chinese analysts when they get the news. "Brahmos 2 tested over Indian Ocean. India enters exclusive club as missile soars over Diego Garcia."

A kodak moment.
 

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