North Korea Says It Has Conducted 'Successful' Hydrogen Bomb Test

[Compersion]

Be whatever I would love it if we announce shortly to the world that republic of India is preparing to test nuclear device(s) and with due regard to international law and principles and external perceptions.

Nuclear security summit in march needs to have good chai ... Don't blame us it is whoever was suppose to stop north Korea testing !!

Unfair to see such deceits advance in such a way.

 

[Navneet Kundu]

A South Korean lawmaker says the country's spy agency told him in a private briefing that Pyongyang may not have conducted a hydrogen bomb test.

Link : http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...eves-bomb-was-atomic/articleshow/50468344.cms

This is even more worrying. It seems, going by the small footprint of the earthquake, they might have tested out a Pakistani tactical nuke. The US and China can pretend to be offended but they will impose no costs because they WANT this development to take place. It is for us to realize, we are being hoodwinked.

 

[Compersion]

I dont want to look rude but is there anyone and anybody making noise on what is the lakshman-rekha and conditions for India to test again. I would imagine a new test by North Korea would be a clear indicator and reason (that has been done).

The South Koreas will also privately say that PRC has promised them Unification. What a joke the PRC is playing on all. Are South Koreas doubting and making fun of North Korea and PRC tests ... and give them more reason to test later (is there any sense). The North Korea is the ideal proxy and buffer for PRC to be used against the many powers that be and also a balance to Taiwan and its nuclear status. The reality that North Korea is hand in glove with PRC needs to be privately talked about and not this pyscops to try and pretend nothing really happen.

But that is beyond the point and i only want to see what India is doing and saying. And the NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR who i had heard has a "SHARP MIND" better be making the right noise and telling the bloody world we are going to test. IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS a nation like North Korea can test without any inhibition for over 10 BLOODY YEARS and with near systematic tests with preparation that is being watched and enjoyed by others which clearly show they are not testing but for PRC and others.

Also

If we test it will really be good for the system and world honestly allow us to jump out of this terrorism nonsense from across the border.

I am looking out for any noise where we say we will test again.

And i dont want to hear and read nonsense like Manmohan Singh had verbally said we to XXXXX we will never test again. Verbal nonsense in the face of PRC and Pakistan and North Korea nuclear weapon system development. We will face sanctions but the global economy is rich right now is it not!! IT IS IDEAL SITUATION. Such opportunity and also a time where everyone wants a response to the attack on our military base. We have been hit on our military base. A nuclear test by us will send the signals beyond.

If the world thinks we are bonkers to think it was actually a PRC test (along with Pakis) - WE CAN DEAL WITH THAT AFTER WE TEST. If we are waiting for the ABSTENTION of RUSSIA and VETO by PRC on UNSC to North Korea test make it known to the knowns that we will test if that happens.

We dont need to be out of the NPT while a nation and nations test for 10 YEARS !! It is not a nation that tests 4 times once - but 1 times four. Just because PRC was apparently not informed and told USA we must think North Korea acted on its own. What a joke. Who is responsible for North Korea ... the previous 3 times it tested it was PRC and now ... and later. The fear of North Korea crazy and berserk behavior is also not a reason. 10 years and PRC joke. They must be laughing and enjoying their baijiu and pissing on the region.

The Nuclear System will not go to flames if we test again. It will be strengthened. The reality needs to be faced by the world.

JAI HIND

 

[Navneet Kundu]

I am looking out for any noise where we say we will test again.

We should test it asap and then announce it, not vice versa. Remember the CIA financed Pakistan's Kargil adventure precisely because they wanted to impose costs on India for testing our nukes. We should test a proper megaton level thermonuclear device and this is non-negotiable. Anyway, we are not a signatory to CTBT or NPT. They are humiliating us by promising that we will be allowed into many multilateral forums, including the two mentioned above, plus MTCR, UNSC but it's all a hogwash. We should be dictating terms to them "If we aren't given so and so, then we go ahead with testing"

What that 'so and so' is, everyone is free to chime in. It could be membership in multilateral forums, it could be POK, it could be settling of Arunachal, or any thing else. But we need to take the initiative and do a test. If Pakistan mimics our test then their economy will be crippled by the sanctions, ours will still survive. No one can pressurize India, it's not 1999 anymore, we are better connected and western economies rely on the Indian market to sustain their own economy. If we are sanctioned now, there will be a global economic meltdown.

 

[Compersion]

We should test it asap and then announce it, not vice versa. Remember the CIA financed Pakistan's Kargil adventure precisely because they wanted to impose costs on India for testing our nukes. We should test a proper megaton level thermonuclear device and this is non-negotiable. Anyway, we are not a signatory to CTBT or NPT. They are humiliating us by promising that we will be allowed into many multilateral forums, including the two mentioned above, plus MTCR, UNSC but it's all a hogwash. We should be dictating terms to them "If we aren't given so and so, then we go ahead with testing"

What that 'so and so' is, everyone is free to chime in. It could be membership in multilateral forums, it could be POK, it could be settling of Arunachal, or any thing else. But we need to take the initiative and do a test. If Pakistan mimics our test then their economy will be crippled by the sanctions, ours will still survive. No one can pressurize India, it's not 1999 anymore, we are better connected and western economies rely on the Indian market to sustain their own economy. If we are sanctioned now, there will be a global economic meltdown.

Exactly. We can test without telling. But i would prefer we told because it is a clear reason why we can. Also.

IF WE HAVE NOT TOLD THE KNOWNS WE ARE GOING TO TEST ALREADY I REALLY THINK INDIA NEEDS BETTER ADVISERS (I dont want to be blunt but please make it known why that is not the case and make it offical). I have said in the past we ought to have put this lakshman-rekha long before that if North Korea (PRC) tests again we will do the same and it would have made the approach to North Korea more serious and not like this alcoholic binge that it is turning out to be. Their reaction is part of the calculation we need to maximize our return from. We need them to lift their skirts. See who and why and when what they will say. What we will loose some civil nuclear agreements and sanctions at a time when it does not and has not sustained much. NATIONAL INTEREST FIRST. The fear of Pakis testing - they are not nuclear because of us and how they were allowed to do and now they want to be Saudi and Sunni protectors and that is for Israel and USA to talk about. Whats the risk. It will take away the attention from North Korea which the PRC is enjoying to the fullest and the region has no idea how to handle. Is there private talks on USA and its allies that they are being played royally. More reason for them to accept a India Nuclear Test NOW. The Pivot to PRC the Balance to region ... all that is being said. We dont need to deal with and use of the clueless Nawaz Sharif but play ball with the real players.

Even beyond megaton the added tests will also confirm our computer algorithms and calculations and performances. Also even allow our SFC to have a test on the current arsenal and steps. GOD IT IS A NEAR PERFECT TIME. The Pakis have attacked our military base and PRC and North Korea have done a nuclear test. Why we need to attack Pakistan we can take the much BIGGER TAKEAWAY !!

 

[Navneet Kundu]

But i would prefer we told

This restlessness might result in the assassination of scientists and/or political leaders. We should follow the template that Vajpayee did. Test first > World imposes sanctions > Offer voluntary moratorium on future testing in exchange for withdrawal of sanctions> they remove sanctions, we get newfound nuclear capability with no costs imposed on us. (Ten years later, do another test.)

This also has added benefit, since the agreement we have made with them is "we wont test nukes, in exchange you wont impose economic sanctions" which, by corollary means that IF at all they impose sanctions on us for ANY reason (even non-military reason), we can immediately test nuke devices as they have violated their agreement. This prevents the west from imposing financial sanctions on us anytime. That's what shields us from economic sanctions now.

Our plan must be to take some bold decision (non-nuclear) in our national interest to provoke US sanctions (it could be joining Russia's side in Syria or taking Iran's side), once they impose sanctions, we claim that they violated their previous agreement and we need to test nukes. Double bonus!

As you rightly said "Their reaction is part of the calculation we need to maximize our return from."

 

[Compersion]

This restlessness might result in the assassination of scientists and/or political leaders. We should follow the template that Vajpayee did. Test first > World imposes sanctions > Offer voluntary moratorium on testing in exchange for withdrawal of sanctions> they remove sanctions, we go back to normal life, with newfound capability. This also has added benefit, since the agreement we have made with them is "we wont test, in exchange you wont impose economic sanctions" which, by corollary means that IF at all they impose sanctions on us for ANY reason (even non-military reason), we can immediately test nuke devices as they have violated their agreement. This prevents the west from imposing financial sanctions on us anytime. Win win.

As you rightly said "Their reaction is part of the calculation we need to maximize our return from."

We can do that anytime. I am talking now. If the the skirt is lifted and we enjoy the view - do you know it is possible some might say go ahead - some might say dont go ahead but why and whats the rewards (must be heavy and taken in absolute unbreakable terms) ... the signal it sends we are wanting to test there is reason to allow us ?? Also. Is there a fear of sabotage and also moles ... those need to be "removed". That is the only obstacle. Is Modi a Vajpayee - is he a N.Rao. Are we doing anything illegal. Have we ratified and made a legal document where we have said we will not test again. NOPE !! We need to test and we need the world to tell us we are a nuclear weapons state within the NPT. Not this outside NPT nuclear weapon state. The NPT and world needs to accept us for who we are and the civil nuclear agreements likewise without any shade of grey of CTBT and NPT. We need to tell the world that North Korea (PRC) test has changed our previous approach and logic since we had made such advances on the known that others will not test after us and hence our approach of testing over a short period and not 10 bloody years. I have said in the past we ought to have told the world if another North Korea test we would test again. This ought to have been done after the second time North Korea tested and the charade PRC playing. We also need to remind the USA and its allies in the region that they are being played and looking stupid by PRC and North Korea. Russia also needs to be reminded how PRC is using them again (like a whore) to get its way in North Korea. The Pakis can even be told we are going to test. All this shamefulness that can be minimized by their private acquiescence of our nuclear test(s).

 

[Navneet Kundu]

That's fine too. Although I disagree on your claim that the US and China is being played by N.Korea. I firmly believe the test that they did was actually a Pakistani tactical nuke. Both US and China are aware and supporting it in private although they appear angry in public. It is India which is getting played. We need to test ASAP. If we don't then this opportunity will be lost.

 

[Compersion]

That's fine too. Although I disagree on your claim that the US and China is being played by N.Korea. I firmly believe the test that they did was actually a Pakistani tactical nuke. Both US and China are aware and supporting it in private although they appear angry in public. It is India which is getting played. We need to test ASAP. If we don't then this opportunity will be lost.

I am saying that PRC (by way of its proxy North Korea - and Pakis also benefiting) is playing the USA and its allies in the region not US and PRC is being played by North Korea. There is a theme that USA is also part of parcel of all this but i do not have the research and knowledge to comment on that at this moment but like i have said we can conclusively know when we tell them we are going to test. The north korea had time to prepare and everyone one was watching them - are we also saying PRC is such a oscar actor - the risk of North Korea proxy being disturbed is something PRC will never allow. Did PRC warn North Korea not to test (such a mighty world leader). I also think Russia is being used by PRC. Because the only way North Korea will be saved this time is if Russia gets a straight back and that will only be because of PRC privately telling Russia to do that. And Russia will again being used like a whore for PRC output. The USA and its allies (Japan, Skorea and even Taiwan) is made to look like stupids in this whole affair. And they can privately say whatever but fact is they dont know what to do next. And a India Nuclear Test in fact will allow them to have a good response.

Wait for UNSC and also see how and what Russia does. If they have abstention that is clear signal in favor of India and they giving the indicator to PRC to deal with their own sh*t. If they do any stupid Vetoing that means even more indications we need to get our act together. If PRC does a VETO we must test immediately thereafter. It would be too obvious. This would not be the first time UNSC deals with a North Korea nuclear test. Even a dilution of the punishment because of PRC assurances ... we must test!! Remember the PRC has told the world they did not know and think North Korea is acting on its own. Any indications shown in the UNSC where PRC comes to protect North Korea is a clear signal for India. Also wait for the noise to come from us by our nationals ... i am looking out to see that. I am wishing there is good stuff and feel there will be.

 

[Navneet Kundu]

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I had misread it earlier.

I think we stand to gain some things if we have a common-minimum program with China. Not a partnership, not an alliance but I don't agree with being outright hostile to them. Not all strategic gains that China makes are inimical to Indian interests, for example there are quite a lot of places where Chinese influence is growing at the expense of US, and this is a good thing for us. Take Philippines, for example which has been a US stooge for so long, has been a pain in the ass for India, I'd like it if China ousts US influence from here. Take Nepal for example, where the US and Britain have ELINT bases and conventional military bases and geological survey mission and sisemic survey units to keep an eye on Indian weapons testing. We could use the recent Maoist takeover of Nepal to our advantage if we let them erode western influence from Nepal before we stake our claim there, instead of opposing China's proxy right away and playing into western hands.

The more powerful China grows, the more our strategic value goes up, in the eyes of the west. The more our value goes up, the more they will have to appease us, which means tolerating weapons testing, cross border raids and other such things.

Let's not hate China for the sake of hating them, we can play China and US against each other and squeeze far more benefits than we could do by being outright hostile. Using this leverage over the US we could ask them for incremental concessions vis-a-vis Pakistan and for the first time we have a tool to put pressure on US instead ov vice versa. It's clearly working because for the first time the US (which always declined to name and shame), came out and named Haqqani, LeT and called out Pakistan for state support to these groups. If we keep cultivating this pressure point, we could even get them to stop giving aid and weapons to Pakistan. For this to happen, we need a working relationship with China. So please rethink your hostility towards China. It's a good bargaining card. The US is petrified of Chinese rise, we ought to make the most of it by appearing to be friendly with China so that the US has to appease us to keep us away from them.

 

[Compersion]

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I had misread it earlier.

I think we stand to gain some things if we have a common-minimum program with China. Not a partnership, not an alliance but I don't agree with being outright hostile to them. Not all strategic gains that China makes are inimical to Indian interests, for example there are quite a lot of places where Chinese influence is growing at the expense of US, and this is a good thing for us. Take Philippines, for example which has been a US stooge for so long, has been a pain in the ass for India, I'd like it if China ousts US influence from here. Take Nepal for example, where the US and Britain have ELINT bases and conventional military bases and geological survey mission and sisemic survey units to keep an eye on Indian weapons testing. We could use the recent Maoist takeover of Nepal to our advantage if we let them erode western influence from Nepal before we stake our claim there, instead of opposing China's proxy right away and playing into western hands.

The more powerful China grows, the more our strategic value goes up, in the eyes of the west. The more our value goes up, the more they will have to appease us, which means tolerating weapons testing, cross border raids and other such things.

Let's not hate China for the sake of hating them, we can play China and US against each other and squeeze far more benefits than we could do by being outright hostile. Using this leverage over the US we could ask them for incremental concessions vis-a-vis Pakistan and for the first time we have a tool to put pressure on US instead ov vice versa. It's clearly working because for the first time the US (which always declined to name and shame), came out and named Haqqani, LeT and called out Pakistan for state support to these groups. If we keep cultivating this pressure point, we could even get them to stop giving aid and weapons to Pakistan. For this to happen, we need a working relationship with China. So please rethink your hostility towards China. It's a good bargaining card. The US is petrified of Chinese rise, we ought to make the most of it by appearing to be friendly with China so that the US has to appease us to stay away from them.

My view of the India and PRC relationship is something along your lines but probably not the specifics. We can do a lot more and there is huge opportunity and that is not only present but because of our long history and i will accept with happiness better relations with Chinese (that includes all the variations including communist).

But there are obvious examples of PRC including our disputed border and their fear of us becoming stronger to them and also the sign of us overtaking them and also please do not ignore what is happening in PRC. I think if we act in our national interests that is most significant and also i think PRC will treat us better if we do another nuclear test(s) now - and i always read that when we show strength and decisiveness we are always treated better (not only by PRC).

What PRC is doing and using North Korea is too obvious. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan. The NATO, USA and others ... the PRC has pissed on all of them. I mean to say i can be a fly on the wall ... Modi calls up Abe and says "buddy what you say - shall i test". I only use Abe (and i am saying this knowing they have the anti-nuclear status on others) at this moment but i really think the acquiescence is there from nearly ALL (that needs to known) for a India nuclear test. Frankly a India Nuclear test is a response by those impacted by the current North korea test. We will get benefits from that both privately and publicly (later at our choosing)

 

[garg_bharat]

I think this North Korea explosion has no impact whatsoever on India. Let us not get carried away by Western propaganda.

America has enough nukes and other weapons to protect Japan from North Korea. Japan is under USA's nuke umbrella pretty much. When a country like Poland or Japan uses nuke shield offered by other country, then Poland and Japan should be considered nuclear weapons States logically.

The country most at risk from North Korea is South Korea. South Korea is a smart country. They will sure figure out a way to deal with the North.

 

[Compersion]

1) South Korea only way out of this is through unification with North. But PRC will not allow that - no matter what they pretend and curry flavor the South koreas in the brothels and that unification will not happen until PRC is in existence. What is the other (any smart) way to deal with North ... ? War ... what a shame

2) The North Korea test was not a North Korea nuclear test ... but a PRC nuclear weapon test. The Pakis will also benefit. What will India do next. Why we need to pretend and also imagine. 10 years of testing in a nation that is joined like a province to PRC. Probably i ask Bhutan to voluntarily remove it self from NPT. And when it tests i will say ... oh my god. Repeat that many times and over many years.

3) USA providing a umbrella from far away is different ... Japan, South Korea and Taiwan will first need to be on their owns.

If PRC say it is absurd that they tested ... why they are vetoing and blocking and protecting North Korea. PRC was supposed to be the only one relations of such. If North Korea is not protected and blocked and North Korea is punished but how !! That is not a joke. That means there is big problems within PRC and this is being used to deflect.

Another reason why India needs to test. It will takeaway the heat from the pressure cooker really. Can we think like such humanitarians

 

[Navneet Kundu]

What PRC is doing and using North Korea is too obvious.

I agreed that we should test ours ASAP. No equivocation there. I am just trying to piece my ideas together into a more coherent 'theory' as to what this test could mean. I'm just trying to play it from an alternate side just for the sake of testing the theory.

Have you considered the other possibility of the US allowing N.Korea to acquire tactical nukes via Pakistan. Now, why would the US do such a thing you ask? check their faltering relationship with S.Korea. Anti-US sentiment is at an all time high in the south and many elected members are calling the US military to leave their country. The US ambassador was even hit on the head by a south Korean protester last month. The US wants to stay in S.Korea as it serves as a good launching pad against China and Russia, but if they want to justify their presence in the south, they need to maintain the status quo of North-South rivalry. What better than a nuke test, on one side they bolster their other ally Pakistan (to avoid a thaw in Paki-India relations) on one side the test angers the south so it prevents a thaw in North-South relations. N.Korea poses no threat to US, they are just playing everything.

That is just another alternate theory of mine, would love to hear your thoughts on that.

 

[Compersion]

I agreed that we should test ours ASAP. No equivocation there. I am just trying to piece my ideas together into a more coherent 'theory' as to what this test could mean.

Have you considered the other possibility of the US allowing N.Korea to acquire tactical nukes via Pakistan. Now, why would the US do such a thing you ask? check their faltering relationship with S.Korea. Anti-US sentiment is at an all time high in the south and many elected members are calling the US military to leave their country. The US ambassador was even hit on the head by a south Korean protester last month. The US wants to stay in S.Korea as it serves as a good launching pad against China and Russia, but if they want to justify their presence in the south, they need to maintain the status quo of North-South rivalry. What better than a nuke test, on one side they bolster their other ally Pakistan (to avoid a thaw in Paki-India relations) on one side the test angers the south so it prevents a thaw in North-South relations. N.Korea poses no threat to US, they are just playing everything. That is just another theory, would love to hear your thoughts on that.

******* i apologies i only want us to look after ourselves and worry about the real reasons later. like you have said it can be complicated and also many shades of grey. I always remember the USA hated us when we tested in May 1998. Also: the PRC hated us.

But if you have read and followed what our relations were thereafter it was better and even USA appreciated the reasons why we tested and acknowledged. Perhaps they were pissed we did not tell them and also made them look like they did not known. But North Korea is not India and PRC has and is making USA make and look like stupids and with too obvious and openness and over 10 years.

The brief that is being read is USA looks silly from all of this and PRC is acting its innocence (fake).

Also.

Sorry I have to say this:

The NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR OF INDIA IS KNOWN TO HAVE A SHARP MIND. I AM WISHING HE IS USING THAT RIGHT NOW. We are having sharp minds all over our system and invisible corridors.

India needs to test and like you have said there are reasons and even reasons that make it even more reasonable for us to test.

 

[Victor3]

a hydrogen bomb is uselless......it takes money to make and have effect like a atomic bomb....more important are the rockets who carry a conventional or atomic warhead....i mean what is really important is how much rockets do you have (for defence or ofence) and how well they function....also lets think like this...are two types of strikes ....one nuclear (via icbm) one conventional (via regular army).....for the first you need defence at a long range by your teritorry .... meaning defence shield .....for the second you need all those weapons a war use ...
for the second type is economically not viable to use a nuke bomb....lets say you have a aircraft carrier who go to your territory....and you wanna bomb it whit 1 nuke....well how much cost the extraction of fission material for the bomb compared with 5 sea skimmers who can hit the aircraft carrier?
and how much do cost construction of a icmb compared with a 2000 km defense rocket? better fill few icmbs with complex fuel for fast travel and for sure you know you hit critical points of enemy.... around 300 icbms would make a enemy contry a ruin....

 

[Compersion]

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/01/06...-to-curtail-north-koreas-atomic-provocations/

How far will PRC go to curtail north Korea atomic provocations ... (All clear and obvious for India ...)

 

[Navneet Kundu]

North Korea nuclear test brings to fore Pakistan’s proliferation record

Top US lawmakers and experts had expressed concern over Pakistan’s proliferation history and its nexus with rogue nations like North Korea in helping them acquire nuclear weapons, a month before Pyongyang successfully conducted its first hydrogen bomb test.

The issue came up for discussion during a Congressional hearing less than a month ago when top American Congressmen and experts opposed the idea of a civil nuclear deal with Pakistan as they pointed to efforts of Pakistan officials and scientists in the past to share the sensitive nuclear technologies to countries like Libya and North Korea.

“A Q Khan Network is believed to have sold sensitive nuclear technology to the most unstable countries on the planet,” Congressman Ted Poe, Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Terrorism, Nonproliferation and Trade, said during a Congressional hearing on December 8, 2015.

A Q Khan is the founder of the uranium enrichment programme for Pakistan’s atomic bomb project.
“It was the Khan Network that allowed North Korea to get its uranium enrichment program up and running. Khan also sold Libya design secrets and nuclear weapons components during the same time,” Poe said.

“Discussions about a potential nuclear deal could send the wrong message to Pakistan, in my opinion the Benedict Arnold of American allies. Pakistan crossed the nuclear weapons threshold in 1985 under the direction of the notorious scientist, A Q Khan,” he said.

“In the very early years of the network Khan established an extensive clandestine network in order to obtain necessary technologies and materials. Later on Khan used similar channels to make a profit by selling nuclear designs and materials to other countries,” Poe said.

Agreed Congressman Bill Keating, Ranking Member of the same committee.

“Pakistan has a history of proliferation. The network led by one of the founders of its nuclear program A Q Khan, sold nuclear weapons related equipment and technology to Iran, Libya and North Korea,” he said.

Husain Haqqani, the former Pakistan ambassador to the US, told lawmakers that Pakistan has refused to abjure first use of nuclear weapons in a conflict, a position similar to that of North Korea which also claims that it fears being overrun by a superior conventional force.

“The A Q Khan network certainly supplied designs and equipment to Iran, although the Pakistani Government took the position that those were unauthorised,” he said.

Henry Sokolski, executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center, in response to a question, indicated that Pakistan might still help deliver any type of nuclear weapon capabilities to anyone.

This week, a top American Senator had expressed concern that Saudi Arabia might buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan amidst increase in tension with Iran.

“Saudi has good relationships with Pakistan. They could just buy a weapon and again further destabilise the Middle East,” Senator Ron Johnson told the CNN in an interview.

Link : http://www.financialexpress.com/art...o-fore-pakistans-proliferation-record/189652/

 

[Compersion]

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...-korean-nuclear-test/articleshow/50468501.cms

99% of all of the spoken presser done in afternoon was (well deserved and done) on pakis but a line comes through on nk blasts ... I am looking to see if this first of many and more enlightenment !!

 

[Victor3]

offtopic: it is safe to stay in india? i mean india gives me the impression that are incapable to have a strong police and secret services and are unable to stop a assasin for example.......