Nirbhay Cruise Missile Development

[Alfalfa]

Nirbhay is basically indian tomahawk. Which is essentially a very old missile although improved periodically. We were late in developing nirbhay due to shortage of funds.

But now we have indegenious seekers for bramhos and astra and Akash etc. Bramhos itself has range of 850 km after Indian entry into MTCR. Further minimising need of old nirbhay. It's internal components had lesser shelf life due to older tech .

Also indegenous cruise engine manik is also ready which may have demanded some changes .

Now with parallel development of bramhos ng , bramhos2 and hypersonic missile +sfdr. We have much better components for missile plus much better material. All these things add up and we had to improve nirbhay to next gen but muchwith so improvement they thought a new missile will come faster. Design will be better than nirbhay and probably stealthy because subsonic cruise missile can be shot down easily if not stealthy like Pakistani cruise missiles.

Also range may improve a lot. Originally nirbhay was meant to be cheap 1000-1500km missile. But with bramhos reaching 850km range and longer production run meant bramhos is more suitable to strike at 1000-1500km with less warhead.

So my guess is that nirbhay successor will have to be
A) completely indeginous with Desi seeker and manik engine so that it's much cheaper to bramhos.
B) stealthy like scalp so that it can survive enemy defense.
C) much longer range 2000km++ .
D) much lighter than current nirbhay probably within 1000kg preferably 700-800 kg .

So a much much better missile. That's why nirbhay has been stopped now.

Brahmos range is 850 km? Really? Can i have the source please?

 

[BON PLAN]

NPO Saturn 36MT I think was the engine used

I remember that in the SCALP / STORM SHADOW case, one of the major issues was the engine.
It was impossible for us to use a williams international engine for obvious reasons.
It was not so easy.
In case of success, it will be a great indian achievement.

 

[BON PLAN]

Brahmos range is 850 km? Really? Can i have the source please?

It seems very high. It's a fact that the missile is massive, but so is the warhead.

 

[WARREN SS]

Brahmos range is 850 km? Really? Can i have the source please?

Russia's state-run TASS news agency reported on Wednesday that the country has developed a variant of the Oniks supersonic cruise missile with a range of 800km. The Indo-Russian BrahMos cruise missile was developed on the basis of the Oniks.

TASS quoted sources from the Research and Production Association of Machine-Building (known as NPO Mashinostroyeniya) that had developed the Oniks-M sea-launched missile. The new weapons can hit both naval and land targets. Tests of the Oniks-M will begin in the coming months. The original Oniks missile is thought to have a range of around 300km and could travel at a speed of over Mach 2.5 (2.5 times the speed of sound). The missile uses a radar seeker and satellite navigation for guidance.

TASS reported “The missile is outfitted with the improved control system and will be capable of striking both naval and ground targets with greater accuracy." The new missile also has improved protection against electronic countermeasures that seek to hinder its seeker from locking on to a target.

Work on the Oniks missile started in 1982 in the former Soviet Union and the missile became operational in 2002. Russia is deploying the Oniks missile on its surface ships and submarines, replacing older cruise missiles. An export variant of the Oniks, called the Yakhont, has been sold to Syria, Indonesia and Vietnam. The Russian military revealed the first combat use of the Oniks missile in November 2016, broadcasting footage of the weapons being launched from a land-based launcher at ISIS targets in Syria.

The first test of the BrahMos missile, which is operational with the Indian Navy and Army, was conducted in 2001. BrahMos Aerospace was formed as a JV between DRDO and NPO Mashinostroyeniya through an agreement on February 12, 1998.

The BrahMos has a guidance system developed in India. BrahMos was originally advertised as having a range of 290km. However, company officials and experts had repeatedly said it was possible to extend it range.

Interestingly, Mishra had spoken of the possibility of extending the system's range to 800km last month. Interacting with TASS at the MAKS air show in Moscow in August, Mishra had said, “We already fired [BrahMos cruise missiles] to a range of 400 km. Very soon, we will confirm that we can fire to a range of 500 km. This will be a sea, ground or air-launched version. Even to an extended range of 800 km is possible.”

https://www.theweek.in/news/sci-tec...rahmos-missile-ancestor-to-have-km-range.html

 

[Hydra3]

Brahmos range is 850 km? Really? Can i have the source please?

Its 450 at best, planed to increase to 600+.

 

[WARREN SS]

Its 450 at best, planed to increase to 600+.

Its 800 Km Russians Tested Oniks-M Kindly See Above post

 

[Kchontha]

What is the actual engine of Nirbhay ?

India's home-made subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay will be powered by 3 Small Turbo Fan Engines (STFE) or the Manik turbofan engine in its future trails.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw3bcoX_vE4FyCioYQkan5kW&cshid=1585614444816

 

[Kchontha]

NPO Saturn 36MT I think was the engine used

Nope! That Russian engine was used in previous test. In future manik/STFE will be used.

 

[Hydra3]

Its 800 Km Russians Tested Oniks-M Kindly See Above post

Will they share it with india? I am bit skeptical about it.

 

[fire starter]

Will they share it with india? I am bit skeptical about it.

doesn't matter it will not bother us........

 

[IndianHawk]

Will they share it with india? I am bit skeptical about it.

What's there to share. Bramhos was always capable of 800km+ . We just never claimed it to stick to mtcr rules. Now we are in the tent so we are openly claiming it.

Even those 800 km range is with max payload.

 

[IndianHawk]

doesn't matter it will not bother us........
View attachment 44975

This is even better. Our own engine . This can be exported to Vietnam / Japan etc without any Russian interference. A true nightmare for chinkies.

 

[Craigs]

What's there to share. Bramhos was always capable of 800km+ . We just never claimed it to stick to mtcr rules. Now we are in the tent so we are openly claiming it.

Even those 800 km range is with max payload.

Problem is not with the range of the missile. The thing is whether we have the ability to acquire targets that far out. With land targets it is possible (as their geographic location is well known) but in the open sea I don't think we have sensors that allow us to acquire a target track that far out.

 

[IndianHawk]

Problem is not with the range of the missile. The thing is whether we have the ability to acquire targets that far out. With land targets it is possible (as their geographic location is well known) but in the open sea I don't think we have sensors that allow us to acquire a target track that far out.

That's why we have things like p8i and that's why we are looking to purchase sea guardian. And that's why navy has its own satellites in the space. We are already building the capability. Smaller ships will be hard to locate but aircraft carrier and destroyers can only come into Indian ocean through chock points of Malacca , Java straight they will be followed from there onwards they can't hide.

 

[Craigs]

Problem is not with the range of the missile. The thing is whether we have the ability to acquire targets that far out. With land targets it is possible (as their geographic location is well known) but in the open sea I don't think we have sensors that allow us to acquire a target track that far out.

Yeah hope you are right and there is no sneaky clause in the P8I deal preventing integration with Russian equipment.

 

[WARREN SS]

Will they share it with india? I am bit skeptical about it.

brahmos Is JV the are legally bounded To share every thing In Case of development Oniks

 

[BON PLAN]

Problem is not with the range of the missile. The thing is whether we have the ability to acquire targets that far out. With land targets it is possible (as their geographic location is well known) but in the open sea I don't think we have sensors that allow us to acquire a target track that far out.

You can use a maritime patrol plane (P8I ?) to detect the ship from a distance enough to avoid SAM, and give in just on time the target estimated location to the missile when fired. 800km at mach 3 only take 13 minutes. A ship cruising at 30 knots will only moved of 10km (partially anticipated except if the ship change suddenly and totally of direction)... Absolutely not impossible.
And if you add a data link on the missile with a refresh the last minute, it's a 100% hit !

This kind of missile is a major danger for a fleet !
And I think it's possible not only to made sea skimming attack, but also high altitude then near vertical attack, where no radar can track and engage the missile..... SO DEADLY !

 

[fire starter]

And I think it's possible not only to made sea skimming attack, but also high altitude then near vertical attack

these capabilities already exists in brahmos.................

 

[IndianHawk]

Yeah hope you are right and there is no sneaky clause in the P8I deal preventing integration with Russian equipment.

P8i doesn't have to talk to bramhos it can talk to Indian Navy destroyers / frigate which carry bramhos. These destroyer / frigate could already be 500-1000 km away from Indian shore thus increasing bramhos range further .

 

[Craigs]

P8i doesn't have to talk to bramhos it can talk to Indian Navy destroyers / frigate which carry bramhos. These destroyer / frigate could already be 500-1000 km away from Indian shore thus increasing bramhos range further .

It looks good in theory. Doesn't work that well in practice. If targeting chain is that long and complicated then adversary can easily jam one link and get away. Large targets like ACs won't be traveling alone.