New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Hari Sud]

Ak12/15 completed its trails in Dec 2017 and the Russian army adopted it in Jan 2018. Deliveries will start from the end of this year. It will be replacing the older Ak103 series of rifles. So we can go ahead and get the rifles of this decade instead of buying a rifle of 1990s

These newer rifles from Russia have exact decades old AK-47 internal mechanism. Furniture is changed here and there. AK-103 is well tried and tested by them and others. Sometime modifications done to old and well tried out model do not work hence better to stick with well tried out model. if the mechanism to fire is same, then why bother with newer model. Sometimes the newer model are made for raising the prices, that may be the case here.

 

[Kchontha]

The AK-15 is 7.62x39 mm derivative of AK-12 (5.45×39mm). Both ak15 and ak103 are selective fire weapons.

Internally both follow the lines of the traditional Kalashnikov design. But notable difference is that ak15 has got a new barrel, a new AR 15 styled butstock and has a cyclic rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute, which is 50 rounds faster than that of the AK-103. One disadvantage of ak15 against the AK 103 is that it is largely untested as compared to the later. Moreover, the later shares commonality with ofb products. Being the latest model the price of the former would also be costly. So, no significant improvement is found on the newer version. However, one interesting point is that they are developing a 7.62x51mm nato version of ak 15.




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[rishivashista13]

The AK-15 is 7.62x39 mm derivative of AK-12 (5.45×39mm). Both ak15 and ak103 are selective fire weapons.

Internally both follow the lines of the traditional Kalashnikov design. But notable difference is that ak15 has got a new barrel, a new AR 15 styled butstock and has a cyclic rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute, which is 50 rounds faster than that of the AK-103. One disadvantage of ak15 against the AK 103 is that it is largely untested as compared to the later. Moreover, the later shares commonality with ofb products. Being the latest model the price of the former would also be costly. So, no significant improvement is found on the newer version. However, one interesting point is that they are developing a 7.62x51mm nato version of ak 15.




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Ak 15 doesn't look much fascinating and also not having any major advantage over AK 103. Both rifles are having almost same length, weight, mechanism and performance. They are not different generation rifles as projected sometimes. If the difference between there costs and delivery time is significant, then it's more viable to go for AK 103.

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[mohitbhagat]

Ak 15 doesn't look much fascinating and also not having any major advantage over AK 103. Both rifles are having almost same length, weight, mechanism and performance. They are not different generation rifles as projected sometimes. If the difference between there costs and delivery time is significant, then it's more viable to go for AK 103.

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But don't forget we're going for 6.5 lakhs of these rifles. And every single and small improvements matters in the long run. These rifles will be with us for the next 2-3 decades so why not go for the latest version of the rifle.

 

[rishivashista13]

But don't forget we're going for 6.5 lakhs of these rifles. And every single and small improvements matters in the long run. These rifles will be with us for the next 2-3 decades so why not go for the latest version of the rifle.

It's always best option to go for the latest version but only it budget allow us to do so. If not, then we can modify AK 103 rifles in future as per our requirements.

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[mohitbhagat]

It's always best option to go for the latest version but only it budget allow us to do so. If not, then we can modify AK 103 rifles in future as per our requirements.

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We have the budget. Going by the quotation by Sig for 716 we can actually arm our entire army in a mere $750million ie 7.4 lakhs rifles. Ak15 are not going to cost more than $500 if we decide to produce 6.5 lakhs of them in India

 

[Kchontha]

4th change in 7 yrs

In its tender last year, the Army had sought 7.62x51 mm rifles that would have cost Rs 2 lakh each

On August 31, 2018, a fresh Army tender listed demand for 6.50 lakh assault rifles with lower specification i.e. 7.62x39 mm

Each rifle will now cost one-fourth the amount. This is fourth change in seven years.

The first was the multicalibur tender whereas the second was the 7.62x51 requirement.

This is old news but interesting to read.

Rifle specs tweak to save Army Rs 6,000 cr - The Tribune
https://www.tribuneindia.com › r...


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[WolfPack86]

But Indian Army general told that they will buy either Ghatak or Insas MK 1 c rifle after purchasing foreign rifle.

 

[mohitbhagat]

But Indian Army general told that they will buy either Ghatak or Insas MK 1 c rifle after purchasing foreign rifle.

There are so many decision changes in small time that you'll never know what actually going to happen. They were saying that of total requirement we're gonna buy 25% of rifles, carbines and lmgs from the ofb.

 

[Compersion]

probably the prospect of a failed tender is wiser to have a further push toward indigenization. we can blame everyone else. at the end, we have to acknowledge hard work (no matter what)

 

[rkhanna]

But Indian Army general told that they will buy either Ghatak or Insas MK 1 c rifle after purchasing foreign rifle.

If you read Gen Rawat's recent interview on Force Restructuring then you will notice that for Ground Troops / Personel a tier based system will be adopted.

1. Infantry will get the "best weapons" where ARs/ RCL etc - so all foriegn tenders will go here
2. Rear Echelon troops / Engineering corp / Non Combat Arms / Armoured Corps etc will get "Good Weapons" where ingenious weapons will be used

 

[Hari Sud]

There are so many decision changes in small time that you'll never know what actually going to happen. They were saying that of total requirement we're gonna buy 25% of rifles, carbines and lmgs from the ofb.

Nobody said that Ghatak or Ic will be used after the foreign purchase of rifles is completed. The persons or even Army generals saying the same have either retired or shunted out of decision making process. The key at the OFB rifle factories is quality and metallurgy. This problem is overcome by buying not too expensive AK rifle of 103 or better type. Any soldier or police forces who have used AK -47 rifle, love them. If technology could be purchased and license obtained then 600,000 rifles could be made in india under $400. That is roughly the price of indian made rifle with modifications to make it equivalent.

 

[Kchontha]

Imho, the best rifle should be the one which out shoots other rifles in the Indian conditions with dirt or clean and wetted or dry.

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[mohitbhagat]

Nobody said that Ghatak or Ic will be used after the foreign purchase of rifles is completed. The persons or even Army generals saying the same have either retired or shunted out of decision making process. The key at the OFB rifle factories is quality and metallurgy. This problem is overcome by buying not too expensive AK rifle of 103 or better type. Any soldier or police forces who have used AK -47 rifle, love them. If technology could be purchased and license obtained then 600,000 rifles could be made in india under $400. That is roughly the price of indian made rifle with modifications to make it equivalent.

These were said just around the time of issue of the RFI. Till that time there was no decision to induct rifle chambered in 7.62×39 mm.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Even in the 7.62*39 mm category there are 3 indegeneous products in the offering :
1. OFB Ghatak
2. OFB Trichy
3. MCIWS 7.62*39 mm

It is good that OFB and DRDO keeps coming up with these rifles at regular intervals especially since the RFIs have a tendency to get cancelled. Also in a competition environment in Indian condition many foreign rifles have failed in the past whereas Indian ones have passed.
Till now no official word regarding selection of Sig and Caracal. Only some media speculation going on whereas official DRDO newsletter of September 2018 showing MCIWS as sucessfully completed and ready for induction.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2018/Sep_18.pdf

Also on official license agreement is signed between India and Russia during Putin's visit on AK-103 license assembly despite a media hype surrounding it.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Even in the 7.62*39 mm category there are 3 indegeneous products in the offering :
1. OFB Ghatak
2. OFB Trichy
3. MCIWS 7.62*39 mm

It is good that OFB and DRDO keeps coming up with these rifles at regular intervals especially since the RFIs have a tendency to get cancelled. Also in a competition environment in Indian condition many foreign rifles have failed in the past whereas Indian ones have passed.
Till now no official word regarding selection of Sig and Caracal. Only some media speculation going on whereas official DRDO newsletter of September 2018 showing MCIWS as sucessfully completed and ready for induction.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2018/Sep_18.pdf

Also on official license agreement is signed between India and Russia during Putin's visit on AK-103 license assembly despite a media hype surrounding it.

God save us from ofb products. They are only good for paramilitary and police personnel not for modern military use. Private sector is the only way ahead

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

God save us from ofb products. They are only good for paramilitary and police personnel not for modern military use. Private sector is the only way ahead

I am saying comparitive trial should be held between Indian and foreign rifles.
Also quality control issues regarding Insas have been solved in the last decade itself.
Also MCIWS is a DRDO product and they can invite public private partnership like the ATAGS project if necessary.
Licence manufacturing of foreign rifles is not desirable since they don't own the IP and just want to jump on the profit bandwagon. Private industries interested in Rifles should do their own R&D and come up with their own products. Even OFB is doing their own R&D now and have come up with Ghatak, TAR, Excaliber MK1C and OFB 7.62*51 rifles as well as bolt action Sniper rifle in a relatively short period of time. Earlier they use to just licence manufacture Insas and other designs.

 

[Hari Sud]

I am saying comparitive trial should be held between Indian and foreign rifles.
Also quality control issues regarding Insas have been solved in the last decade itself.
Also MCIWS is a DRDO product and they can invite public private partnership like the ATAGS project if necessary.
Licence manufacturing of foreign rifles is not desirable since they don't own the IP and just want to jump on the profit bandwagon. Private industries interested in Rifles should do their own R&D and come up with their own products. Even OFB is doing their own R&D now and have come up with Ghatak, TAR, Excaliber MK1C and OFB 7.62*51 rifles as well as bolt action Sniper rifle in a relatively short period of time. Earlier they use to just licence manufacture Insas and other designs.

No comparative trials. It is a delay tactic.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Requirement of two types of equipment for soldiers is being created to open up the procurement system for super costly small arms. common sense clearly indicates that such weapons cannot be purchased for all the soldiers so wordplay is being used to import costly junk

 

[mohitbhagat]

$990 for a rifle chambered in 7.62 nato is not very costly.
Also when it comes to Caracals Car 816, it's very similar to Hk416 specially since the designer and quality is the same. They quoted it for $1150 much less than what H&K quoted US army for a version of it which was around $3000(including service and spares).