New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

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every weapon system has issues.....

main point is , how it is marketed.!!

we had bought the same tevor21 in 2002 for special forces and later it was decleared unsatisfectory.....the system then undergoes several modifications.....

 

[ghost]

Big scoop ,it seems that IWI has developed a 7.62x51mm Tavor , most probably for Indian Army .Interesting times ahead.

 

[sreenevasachha]

Is tavor proved in all indian conditions ?

Sent from my SM-J200G using Tapatalk

 

[Tarun Kumar]

Tavor is favourite of all branches of indian armed forces. We should end this tender tamasha and go directly for 7.6mm Tavor. War does not wait for tenders.

 

[abingdonboy]

Punj Lloyd so called plant seems more like a warehouse than a manufacturing unit. A small arms plant requires Rs 1000 crore investment. What has Punj spent? Another wanna be screw driver assembly unit.

Why would they have CNC machines if this was just a "warehouse". By the way IWI plans to make ALL of the sub-assemblies for all of their small arms in India to be exported to Israel where they will be assembled and sent to their various customers (including India). So this isn't just a screw driver asembly unit but part of a global OEM's strategy that extends beyond the Indian market.

 

[abingdonboy]

Big scoop ,it seems that IWI has developed a 7.62x51mm Tavor , most probably for Indian Army .Interesting times ahead.

Nice catch, just order them for the entire military and be done with it, move onto the MCIWS or whatever future generation rifle.

This DRDO-OFB-global tender circus will never end otherwise.

+ I wonder if this was the 7.62x51 rifle that was ordered for the IA's SF recently?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

CNC machines are not apart of of screw driver technology, The company does not gain any creditable scientific knowledge from foreign collaborator, It does not benefits this country ..

 

[abingdonboy]

CNC machines are not apart of of screw driver technology, The company does not gain any creditable scientific knowledge from foreign collaborator, It does not benefits this country ..

I agree with the first part but of course there are benefits for India:

1) Employment in India (and skilled jobs at that)
2) FDI in India
3) These world class IWI weapons will be signifcantly cheaper now and this will be a boost for security units in India

Long term benefits are that Punj may generate enough skilled labour and expertise that it can embark upon its own R&D efforts and leverage the IWI JV for that.

Furthermore, if given a level playing field these private players will force OFB to up their game or perish, competition is never a bad thing.

 

[ezsasa]

CNC machines are not apart of of screw driver technology, The company does not gain any creditable scientific knowledge from foreign collaborator, It does not benefits this country ..

Not necessarily true...

Bharat forgings too started in this way, they started with ToT from Russia and US. Now they develop their own their equipment with their own alloys .

It's a low risk business model adopted by Indian industries.

However it might take 5-10 years to reach the stage you are expecting. Much of it depends on literature in upcoming small arms tenders.

So we will have to wait and watch.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

My point here is completely with regards to scientific gain, No country in the world offered us heat resistance fiber technology for small arms, Today we on our own manufacture such fiber technology which is better than what imported design offered us today or even better than what their own military use ..

Its goes same with barrel, INSAS barrel had issues at extreme cold environment where anti-freeze became freeze or worst, No country worked so extensively on it as we Indians with regards to this problem, ARDE went to fins for help and in scientific exchange we got their metallurgy for barrel and with our own mixture it proved better than most out there and works at Himalayan cold as well as thar heat and one of the most moist areas over the globe, We had to figure it out on our own, This is a scientific gain we had when we have to work on our own.

AFAIK, During last multi-cal rifle trails, Israeli lost at high altitude which was due to its barrel properties, If something is not design as per GSQR and tested to its core cannot be issued to Jawans, It does not matter how a firearm looks or feel to one but must work where it must ..

It takes decades to adapt and familiarize with firearm and firearm itself in service, Something INSAS 1B1 went through and something i have seen personally first hand ..

================

I am sure Private.co can bring better quality, And Punj can supply spares and upgrades to all those TAR-21 in service at SF disposal, I can only hope Punj manufacture 1B1 too along with TAR-21 ..

if given a level playing field these private players will force OFB to up their game or perish, competition is never a bad thing.

Not necessarily true...

Bharat forgings too started in this way, they started with ToT from Russia and US. Now they develop their own their equipment with their own alloys ..

 

[ghost]

Nice catch, just order them for the entire military and be done with it, move onto the MCIWS or whatever future generation rifle.

This DRDO-OFB-global tender circus will never end otherwise.

+ I wonder if this was the 7.62x51 rifle that was ordered for the IA's SF recently?

To be frank ,this is as good as it can get with regards to private small arm manufacturing in India .

They will first manufacture components ,major one being bolt and receiver. These will be exported to Israel for assembly as well as used for maintenance of IWI weapon already in service in India.Within few months PLR (Punj llyod Raksha system ) will get the licence to manufacture small arms from Home ministry,then they will not only produce the components but also complete firearms which will be sold to various Indian forces as well as exported to Israel and other countries .They are in the process of building testing and firing range in this facility.So this is going to be as authentic small arm manufacturing facility as it can get,which will become a export hub in future.Manufacturing in India will reduce price which will make these already popular weapons even more attractive to the world.

Initially the plant would manufacture components and in phases it would be expanded to manufacture complete small arms for which the licence is awaited.

“License is in the final stage of approval with the Home Ministry. It is likely to be done in the next few months,” Atul Punj, Chairman Punj Lloyd told The Hindu.

Mr. Katsav stated that 90 per cent of IWI’s products were exported and eventually the idea is to export full fire arms from India to Israel and worldwide.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-make-small-arms-in-india/article18383248.ece

As speculated they are offering Tavor to the Indian army.

Punj Lloyd officials said the company has proposed the Tavor as a replacement for the INSAS rifle currently used by Indian armed forces .

Mark Shachar, VP Business Development, SK Group said: "This plant will be a hub for us to manufacture weapons for the Indian armed forces and in the future we will export them to the world. We will also make the plant a centre of maintenance for all these guns for India and abroad," he said. The IWI is a member of the SK Group.

They will have full TOT.

The weapons will be assembled based on 100 per cent transfer of technology, said Lt Col RK Sharma (retd), Additional General Manager- Defence, Punj Lloyd.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-venture-with-israel/articleshow/58516436.cms


Please do note that Punj llyod have 51% ownership of this JV.Expect them to provide good service, as success in this field in based on reputation.To run first you need to learn how to walk,this is what Punj llyod is doing. Necessity is the mother of invention,this can be applied to this company, it will have to come up with India centric solutions to flourish in future.

As time will pass and it will start getting big orders from Indian forces,slowly and gradually but for sure R&D and weapon development will shift to India.Just remember Bajaj and TVS who had similar humble start with big companies and today they are not only manufacturing their own but also exporting worldwide.

 

[Chinmoy]

My point here is completely with regards to scientific gain, No country in the world offered us heat resistance fiber technology for small arms, Today we on our own manufacture such fiber technology which is better than what imported design offered us today or even better than what their own military use ..

Its goes same with barrel, INSAS barrel had issues at extreme cold environment where anti-freeze became freeze or worst, No country worked so extensively on it as we Indians with regards to this problem, ARDE went to fins for help and in scientific exchange we got their metallurgy for barrel and with our own mixture it proved better than most out there and works at Himalayan cold as well as thar heat and one of the most moist areas over the globe, We had to figure it out on our own, This is a scientific gain we had when we have to work on our own.

AFAIK, During last multi-cal rifle trails, Israeli lost at high altitude which was due to its barrel properties, If something is not design as per GSQR and tested to its core cannot be issued to Jawans, It does not matter how a firearm looks or feel to one but must work where it must ..

It takes decades to adapt and familiarize with firearm and firearm itself in service, Something INSAS 1B1 went through and something i have seen personally first hand ..

================

I am sure Private.co can bring better quality, And Punj can supply spares and upgrades to all those TAR-21 in service at SF disposal, I can only hope Punj manufacture 1B1 too along with TAR-21 ..

This is what most of the members here doesn't understand. Everything that glitters is not gold. INSAS in itself is a platform which is continuously evolving. The AK of today is not a outcome of overnight designing. It had seen its own downfall. Even the design was not even considered for for almost 4 years. As of today, it is one of the most ugly looking system in world.

But its development cycle which makes a system perfect. I think its time for GOI and OFB to try to develop a system based on INSAS for 7.62x51 mm.

 

[ezsasa]

To be frank ,this is as good as it can get with regards to private small arm manufacturing in India .

They will first manufacture components ,major one being bolt and receiver. These will be exported to Israel for assembly as well as used for maintenance of IWI weapon already in service in India.Within few months PLR (Punj llyod Raksha system ) will get the licence to manufacture small arms from Home ministry,then they will not only produce the components but also complete firearms which will be sold to various Indian forces as well as exported to Israel and other countries .They are in the process of building testing and firing range in this facility.So this is going to be as authentic small arm manufacturing facility as it can get,which will become a export hub in future.Manufacturing in India will reduce price which will make these already popular weapons even more attractive to the world.







http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-make-small-arms-in-india/article18383248.ece

As speculated they are offering Tavor to the Indian army.





They will have full TOT.



http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-venture-with-israel/articleshow/58516436.cms


Please do note that Punj llyod have 51% ownership of this JV.Expect them to provide good service, as success in this field in based on reputation.To run first you need to learn how to walk,this is what Punj llyod is doing. Necessity is the mother of invention,this can be applied to this company, it will have to come up with India centric solutions to flourish in future.

As time will pass and it will start getting big orders from Indian forces,slowly and gradually but for sure R&D and weapon development will shift to India.Just remember Bajaj and TVS who had similar humble start with big companies and today they are not only manufacturing their own but also exporting worldwide.

The real sustainable cash flow for these private companies will not be from IA, because at best there are only four major tenders (INSAS replacement, AK replacement, new 762 NATO and 2A1 carbine replacement) from IA and only one will be the winner per tender. if future tender is multi-cal then the number are further reduced to two or three. and there are 6-8 companies which got licenses for small arms manufacturing.

The real money will be from state police and CAPF. multiple sets of tenders from each state and Home ministry of atleast 30-50 thousand each. this is what is going to sustain them for next 10-15 years.

Semi-auto Tavor may not have america as a market, because they are already have a domestic manufacturer in america. but now Punj lloyd IWI can also export tavors to where the americans export to.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Plastic Receivers have failed all over the world hence rise of HK-416. In any case, any major Company can manufacture Tavor clone without much ado. But Dalals jindabad. Was Not Punj acting as JV of Singapore STK before it was black listed?

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Minor changes in INSAS, MCIWS, FNFAL Isapore can covert it into Bullpub like Tavor. But like MSMC carbine is being blocked for being 3 GRAMS overweight to allow Rs. 1000 crore worth of import of outdated SMGs, similarly this whole Punji thingie is new scam.

 

[ghost]

The real sustainable cash flow for these private companies will not be from IA, because at best there are only four major tenders (INSAS replacement, AK replacement, new 762 NATO and 2A1 carbine replacement) from IA and only one will be the winner per tender. if future tender is multi-cal then the number are further reduced to two or three. and there are 6-8 companies which got licenses for small arms manufacturing.

The real money will be from state police and CAPF. multiple sets of tenders from each state and Home ministry of atleast 30-50 thousand each. this is what is going to sustain them for next 10-15 years.

Semi-auto Tavor may not have america as a market, because they are already have a domestic manufacturer in america. but now Punj lloyd IWI can also export tavors to where the americans export to.

First let me make few things clear to you.Right now for Indian army these are the tenders 7.62x51mm assault rifles (to be standard issue ) ,Carbine (most probably 5.56x45mm ),LMG ,Sniper rifle,Pistol.Regarding AK replacement nothing is clear at present.

I agree that there is CAPF ,Police,Coast guard etc for substantial orders.
Then there will be export orders from forces of other countries from Africa,Asia and middle east.Add to this supply of spare parts.Regarding developed market small arms made in India will be substantially cheaper.

They may even sell pistols to the civilians if Government allows.

Small arms have a cycle of 15 years on average after which forces go in for new procurement ,not to forget it will take them a lot of time to fulfill the initial orders as it will be huge including spares,you can also include the repeat orders.

 

[ezsasa]

First let me make few things clear to you.Right now for Indian army these are the tenders 7.62x51mm assault rifles (to be standard issue ) ,Carbine (most probably 5.56x45mm ),LMG ,Sniper rifle,Pistol.Regarding AK replacement nothing is clear at present.

I agree that there is CAPF ,Police,Coast guard etc for substantial orders.
Then there will be export orders from forces of other countries from Africa,Asia and middle east.Add to this supply of spare parts.Regarding developed market small arms made in India will be substantially cheaper.

They may even sell pistols to the civilians if Government allows.

Small arms have a cycle of 15 years on average after which forces go in for new procurement ,not to forget it will take them a lot of time to fulfill the initial orders as it will be huge including spares.

I don't think 762 nato is for a standard issue, because RFI is for 1.8 lakh only. This is a assumption because of the number.
Let me have a look at RFI/tender for carbine, give the link to RFI if possible along with issue date. maybe i missed it.
for LMG and sniper rifle, RFI is available, pistol not so sure.

any IA RFI issued prior to Jun 2016 is mostly irrelevant.

agree with rest of your post.

 

[ghost]

I don't think 762 nato is for a standard issue, because RFI is for 1.8 lakh only. This is a assumption because of the number.
Let me have a look at RFI/tender for carbine, give the link to RFI if possible along with issue date. maybe i missed it.
for LMG and sniper rifle, RFI is available, pistol not so sure.

any IA RFI issued prior to Jun 2016 is mostly irrelevant.

agree with rest of your post.

This will be the initial order,repeat order will follow if every thing goes well.Just use your common sense ,every major force has a standard issue calibre and rifle due to logistic and training issue.

The RFI for carbine was issued in 2009 for 5.56x45mm ,trials took place in which galil ace passed all the trials and emerged as the winner.Since then for some reason it is stuck in red tape.

Incidentally, Galil Ace carbine of IWI was the CQB which qualified in the earlier tender. Now defence ministry officials said that the CQB deal would be fast tracked to meet the urgent requirements of the services.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-make-small-arms-in-india/article18383248.ece

For pistol the RFI is old,I don't know the current status.But,rest assured they will be procured because the idea is to equip every soldier with a secondary firearm.

 

[sthf]

@ezsasa 7.62 NATO will be the standard issue. There are roughly 360 infantry battalions in IA. Each battalion has 4 rifle companies of about 128 each. This rounds up to about 185,000 rifles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Afaik, Its said the caliber 7.62nato is chosen over other for shoot to kill reason as other are not sufficient to fight in CT environment, The first many of these are already ordered for SF ..

Besides, MK1C is still in user trails, It makes no sense Army still engage in inducting a weapon and ordering a very different kind at the same time .. .