New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Bornubus]

This thread started in 2011 now it's the end of 2016. People still posting their fancy rifles meanwhile during this time Pakis are able to induct new Snipers, Gear and almost a finalized contact for standard issue service rifle.

 

[Hari Sud]

This thread started in 2011 now it's the end of 2016. People still posting their fancy rifles meanwhile during this time Pakis are able to induct new Snipers, Gear and almost a finalized contact for standard issue service rifle.

Pakistanis are still hunting for a higher grade sniper rifle. Accuracy International in US refused their request two years back. No other supplier has emerged as yet. What they are using very cleverly is 600 to 800 yards designated marksmen rifle, very comparable to Dragnov India uses. The difference is that at LOC, they have unleashed their sniper rifle, whereas India is holding back.

 

[Bornubus]

What they are using very cleverly is 600 to 800 yards designated marksmen rifle, very comparable to Dragnov India uses.

They have a range of Long range Snipers and AMR with troops serving on LOC not just DMRs

 

[ghost]

One can always do some tweets and turn them into DMR, We have shortage of DMR in Army ..

SVD or this new procurement will not change the picture in next decade.

Watch it ,can be done.Specially for RR in Kashmir!

 

[Hari Sud]

Any guesses where did Czech 805 Bren stood during testing phase in India's rifle competition. Was it in the top two or three?

If Pakistan buys this weapon for its soldiers, will it put Indian soldiers at a great disadvantage if they are equipped with new improved INSAS or Excalibur?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Even if they get best in the world, Scar for example ..

How its going to tip the balance, It certainly improve the condition of enemy solider but that does not meant we are in any disadvantage ..

Any guesses where did Czech 805 Bren stood during testing phase in India's rifle competition. Was it in the top two or three?

If Pakistan buys this weapon for its soldiers, will it put Indian soldiers at a great disadvantage if they are equipped with new improved INSAS or Excalibur?

 

[Hari Sud]

Even if they get best in the world, Scar for example ..

How its going to tip the balance, It certainly improve the condition of enemy solider but that does not meant we are in any disadvantage ..

A bit more elaborate explanation please. Many times in the wars in the last century, it has happened that wars/battles were lost because the opposing side soldiers carried an inferior rifle. The AK-47 was invented in Soviet Union to address that situation in 1948. Indian soldiers in 1962 carried an inferior WW2 vintage LeeEnfield rifle where as Chinese Soldiers carried Burp Gun (German PPsH type made in Soviet Union) automatic rifle firing 700 rounds a minute etc.

That is the slant of my question asked in #1145.

 

[SilentKiller]

Any guesses where did Czech 805 Bren stood during testing phase in India's rifle competition. Was it in the top two or three?

If Pakistan buys this weapon for its soldiers, will it put Indian soldiers at a great disadvantage if they are equipped with new improved INSAS or Excalibur?

Yes..
2nd thing, i hate praising porkis but they are good at one thing and way better at this than us its with defence deals. they get weapons from any where and usually opt for best cost effective weapon..they are faster in closing deals. we had trails for guns for 2-3 years, then we changed the requirement..we have been hearing on trail of 155mm guns, bullets proof vests, rifles, anti-tank missiles etc...usually any indian (big deal) provided its not FMS deal. we take minimum 5-10 years.

 

[SilentKiller]

Even if they get best in the world, Scar for example ..

How its going to tip the balance, It certainly improve the condition of enemy solider but that does not meant we are in any disadvantage ..

Sir agree but u cannot bring knife to a gun fight, how much courage u have..
If INSAS isn't bad, what the need for its replacement?

our soldiers lack some equipements, if enemy gets better than us, then we are at loss..2008 our police had guns but u cann't compete a WW2 gun with Ak47 (1948) difference is few years but firepower and tech killed a lot people + we are not fighting a 1-2-3 fight or a conventional war with pakistan..they attack we defend..they attack 100 times, we defend 99 times successfully, for them 100 attacks are very cheap, proxy war with pakistan is very cheap for them, they are losing idoits and we are losing soldiers..
All the guns porki army replaces will be given to these idiots.

 

[Chinmoy]

Sir agree but u cannot bring knife to a gun fight, how much courage u have..
If INSAS isn't bad, what the need for its replacement?

our soldiers lack some equipements, if enemy gets better than us, then we are at loss..2008 our police had guns but u cann't compete a WW2 gun with Ak47 (1948) difference is few years but firepower and tech killed a lot people + we are not fighting a 1-2-3 fight or a conventional war with pakistan..they attack we defend..they attack 100 times, we defend 99 times successfully, for them 100 attacks are very cheap, proxy war with pakistan is very cheap for them, they are losing idoits and we are losing soldiers..
All the guns porki army replaces will be given to these idiots.

Just one thing. INSAS is getting replaced not for any inferiority. It is getting replaced for ineffectivity of 5.45 against Jehadis. Now it could be effective too, but not with its current 16 inch barrel. For any 5.45 to act with its full potential, you need a 20 inch barrel. But then again it would increase the overall length and you don't want a bulky and elongated rifle in your hand while assaulting.

In conventional army to army warfare, things are always different then engaging a suicidal terrorist. 5.45 is good enough against a professional army with its long range. Whereas 7.62 NATO would bring weight along with range. So you have to keep it in mind that whom you are engaging and in where. That's the very reason why AK is preferred over INSAS in COIN. But while on a patrol along LOC or IB, INSAS with more ammo is preferred over AK.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The weapon stated here have generation of difference, 1962, 3o3 is essentially a WW1 design vs 50s SKS ..

INSAS 1B1 vs Scar have few differences from a solider`s perspective ..

A bit more elaborate explanation please. Many times in the wars in the last century, it has happened that wars/battles were lost because the opposing side soldiers carried an inferior rifle. The AK-47 was invented in Soviet Union to address that situation in 1948. Indian soldiers in 1962 carried an inferior WW2 vintage LeeEnfield rifle where as Chinese Soldiers carried Burp Gun (German PPsH type made in Soviet Union) automatic rifle firing 700 rounds a minute etc.

That is the slant of my question asked in #1145.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AK is preferred in CT coz it has ability of an carbine with a superior round vs 9mm, 1B1 on other hand is a rifle meant for accurate medium and long range killing for an rifleman, Though it can be used in close quarters as well..

Do not confuse Our 5.56mm with foreign 5.56mm and Vietnam stories repeated by ignorant media, 1B1 has an 18.3 inch barrel with 1:7 twist rate and shoots 64gn round with 2900 fps, Its design to kill human targets at 600ms or more given assisted with scope.

In close quarters its impact and behavior is no different from 7.62nato, Its never about the round which is meant for kill but its always the hit placement which decides the kill ..

Just one thing. INSAS is getting replaced not for any inferiority. It is getting replaced for ineffectivity of 5.45 against Jehadis. Now it could be effective too, but not with its current 16 inch barrel. For any 5.45 to act with its full potential, you need a 20 inch barrel. But then again it would increase the overall length and you don't want a bulky and elongated rifle in your hand while assaulting.

In conventional army to army warfare, things are always different then engaging a suicidal terrorist. 5.45 is good enough against a professional army with its long range. Whereas 7.62 NATO would bring weight along with range. So you have to keep it in mind that whom you are engaging and in where. That's the very reason why AK is preferred over INSAS in COIN. But while on a patrol along LOC or IB, INSAS with more ammo is preferred over AK.

 

[Chinmoy]

AK is preferred in CT coz it has ability of an carbine with a superior round vs 9mm, 1B1 on other hand is a rifle meant for accurate medium and long range killing for an rifleman, Though it can be used in close quarters as well..

Do not confuse Our 5.56mm with foreign 5.56mm and Vietnam stories repeated by ignorant media, 1B1 has an 18.3 inch barrel with 1:7 twist rate and shoots 64gn round with 2900 fps, Its design to kill human targets at 600ms or more given assisted with scope.

What is the twist rate of M16? I think its 1:5. Is it so?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Current version in service with US military have optimized for the heavier NATO SS109 bullet and have 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 7 in (1:177.8 mm), Much like 1b1 ..

Correction, 1B1 has 1 : 7 and half or more ( 1 : 200mm ) ..

=============

Early model M16 barrels had a rifling twist of 4 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 14 inches (1:355.6 mm) bore - as it was the same rifling used by the .222 Remington sporting round. This was shown to make the light .223 Remington bullet yaw in flight at long ranges and it was soon replaced. Later models had an improved rifling with 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 12 inches (1:304.8 mm) for increased accuracy and was optimized for use with the standard U.S. M193 cartridge. Current models are optimized for the heavier NATO SS109 bullet and have 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 7 in (1:177.8 mm). Weapons designed to accept both the M193 or SS109 rounds (like civilian market clones) usually have a 6-groove, right hand twist, 1 turn in 9 inches (1:228.6 mm) bore, although 1:8 inches and 1:7 inches twist rates are available as well.

What is the twist rate of M16? I think its 1:5. Is it so?

 

[Chinmoy]

Current version in service with US military have optimized for the heavier NATO SS109 bullet and have 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 7 in (1:177.8 mm), Much like 1b1 ..

Correction, 1B1 has 1 : 7 and half ..

=============

But the overall length is small then 1B1. Now I believe this turn rate with 16 inch barrel is not going to make the round as accurate as that fired from 1B1 at longer range. Moreover they are still using 62gr in form of SS109. I think their main aim is to provide volume of fire with a carbine like AK whereas our aim is to have minimum but accurate fire upto a distance in more conventional way.

 

[ghost]

@Kunal Biswas sir,Do we use Indian 5.56mm for SF tavor or do we import it.What about the quality of our ammunition.I have heard that the B&T submachine gun purchased by the army was doing good till the ammo was imported ,but as soon as they started using Indian ammo problem cropped up.The reason given by army for this was that our ammo is of shit quality, due to poor metallurgy.

Why government is not upgrading its factories ,it's not that we lack in capability .


One thing I know for sure is that SF TAR21 5.56 does not have enough punch.

O.T: How much ammo is a rifleman issued these days as standard kit.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I think you compared with M4 not M16..

M16 fixed butt : 1,003 mm with 20 inch barrel
INSAS 1B1 fixed butt : 960 mm with 18.3 inch barrel
M4 carbine : 840 mm with 14.5 inch barrel

=============

SS109 are no longer in Army, Army use only Indian 5.56mm rounds ..

But the overall length is small then 1B1. Now I believe this turn rate with 16 inch barrel is not going to make the round as accurate as that fired from 1B1 at longer range. Moreover they are still using 62gr in form of SS109. I think their main aim is to provide volume of fire with a carbine like AK whereas our aim is to have minimum but accurate fire upto a distance in more conventional way.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

SF or regular both use Indian ammunition ( Batchs since 2010 ), Indian ammunition is smokeless and have steel core.

That is a farce because we use 9mm ammunition from our guns and it does not cause any problems, Why should it cause problems to foreign guns unless they are providing second hand products ..

Ammunition is provided as per deployment, For a rifleman 5 magazine of 20rnds is provided as standard..

@Kunal Biswas sir,Do we use Indian 5.56mm for SF tavor or do we import it.What about the quality of our ammunition.I have heard that the B&T submachine gun purchased by the army was doing good till the ammo was imported ,but as soon as they started using Indian ammo problem cropped up.The reason given by army for this was that our ammo is of shit quality, due to poor metallurgy.

Why government is not upgrading its factories ,it's not that we lack in capability .


One thing I know for sure is that SF TAR21 5.56 does not have enough punch.

O.T: How much ammo is a rifleman issued these days as standard kit.

 

[Rushil51]

http://www.newindianexpress.com/the...-bypasses-rifle-tender-quicksand-1554859.html

By Pradip R Sagar

NEW DELHI: Perturbed with the repeated failure to purchase 44,000 close quarter battle (CQB) carbines, a crucial weapon for the Indian Army for its counter-terrorism operations in the Kashmir Valley, the Manohar Parrikar-led Ministry of Defence (MoD) will buy them directly instead of opting for the global tendering process.

For the last two decades, the Army has been battling to replace its British-era carbines, the sub-machine gun or the sten gun, which were reti red long ago. But each time the selection process get stuck on allegations of corruption and favouritism.

“With repeated failure to procure it through the global tendering process, the ministry has to go for direct government-to-government sale for buying the weapon. It will speed up the acquisition process and will rule out allegations of corruption,” a top ministry official said.

The MoD proposed an agreement under foreign military sales with a country for buying 10,000 such carbines directly. The remaining lot can be manufactured here with a production license to meet Army’s requirement.Recently, former MoS for Defence defence Rao Inderjit Singh wrote to Parri
kar seeking a CBI probe over the selection criteria of the final vendor after a mammoth six-year exercise by the Army and the ministry. Singh alleged the Army tweaked the technical specifications to favour a particular vendor.


In 2008, when the Army issued a global tender to replace the 1944 vintage CQBs, the original request was sent to 28 companies. Five responded. After eight years of deliberations and trials, the competition boiled down to Italian Beretta and Israeli Weapon Industry.


An Army officer involved in counter-insurgency operations said the British-era carbines are not battle worthy. “The carbines were authorised to commanders of Ghatak platoon, the Army’s first line of offensive in anti-terrorist operations. But the weapons are no match for militants who use sophisticated automatic weapons. In conventional warfare, militants are multi-generations ahead of the Army,” he said.

 

[Rushil51]

What does this report mean? Is MSMC is dead? @Kunal Biswas as already stated the user trails are complete for MSMC

Also this is the same guy who wrote that hit-job against Akash SAM

http://www.newindianexpress.com/the...Indias-Missile-Programme-in-Peril-913856.html

http://www.newindianexpress.com/the...ts-to-Make-in-Abroad-Missile-Plan-913869.html