New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[SafedSagar]

NEW DELHI: India will now re-launch the hunt for new-generation assault rifles for its 1.18-million strong Army, following the scrapping its four-year-old tender for the guns worth around Rs 4,850 crore.

TOI on May 20 had reported that the proposed mega project for the assault rifles, with interchangeable barrels for conventional warfare and counter-insurgency operations, was on the verge of being scrapped since it had run into major problems.

Now, the armament firms that had participated in the extensive trials -- Colt (US), Beretta (Italy), Ceska (Czech) and Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) - have been told that the proposed contract was being retracted.

This is a serious blow to the long-standing demand for new rifles to replace the 5.56mm indigenous INSAS (Indian small arms system) guns, which have suffered from technical bugs since their induction in 1994-95.

As per the now-cancelled project, 65,000 rifles were to be directly acquired from the selected foreign vendor to equip the 120 infantry battalions deployed on the western and eastern fronts. The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) was to then subsequently manufacture over 1,13,000 such rifles after getting transfer of technology from the foreign company.

But the proposal for the new rifles -- with a 5.56x45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62x39mm secondary one for counter-terror operations - was found to be "impractical" both in terms of high costs and technical requirements, said sources.

The plan now is to either get a foreign arms company to shift some of its manufacturing facilities to India or task the OFB to manufacture the new assault rifles with foreign collaboration.

Weighing around 3.5-kg, the new rifle will need to have a 1-km range, advanced night-vision devices, holographic reflex sights, laser designators, detachable under-barrel grenade launchers and the like.

The INSAS rifles, with an effective range of just 450-metre and weighing over 4.25-kg, had replaced the even more cumbersome 7.62mm self-loading rifles. The Army also uses over one lakh AK-47s, known the world over for their sheer ruggedness and fail-safe nature, for counter-insurgency operations in J&K and northeast.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ping-4-yr-old-tender/articleshow/47905147.cms

 

[Chris Jude]

You really don't much about 'fire arms '.. do you? ..

For a professional, it takes months to understand a rifle Under rain / snow / desert for 24x7x365 or more, without much maintenance and still work when press the trigger, INSAS does that, Frankly its a very Solider friendly Rifle, Even beats TAR-21 in field maintenance timing, Issuing new design also has hidden technical issue so does new training and its a mess, Of course you dont know as you are not a Uniform personal also to add ' Civilians' did not go through the same process like people in Army do, hence Civilians dont have ability to judge any Assault rifle ..



I dont believe you and many understand the meaning of ' Indigenous ', People merely quoting Media terminology.
Indigenous means ' Made & Design In India ' >>

1. Made in India > Made out of Indian raw material ..
2. Design in India > Design as per requirement and freedom of making modifications without third party influence ..

This not about your knowledge but others also ..


About INSAS and people in Army not happy with it suggest, Read and Learn >

Now as talking abt tactics with respect to hardware, You lack the understanding that INSAS is not a Carbine, And INSAS are used in CQB ..

As for the comment ' Degrading INSAS level ' I can only say, Don't talk about things you know **** about ..

The Apt answer none other would have done, we people have always been fascinated with imported stuff, that is why our own material even though they are better than the imported one, they never are accepted!

 

[Chris Jude]

About R&D, I really doubt that so does Copy paste word seems not right but ' Influenced ' ..

INSAS is a excellent Rifle design as per Indian needs ( Reliability of an AK and accuracy and sight of an M-16 ), What let it down is the manufacturing quality, Now its not the issue even for Civilian arms made by IOF ..

If you go through Small arm history, FN-FAL and G3 were too copy paste STG-44 so does AK and the Rifles derived from it, M-16 on other hand was made but complex system which is now being simplified but not yet at same level of an AK, Its not a really soldier`s firearm ..

So, You understand now that every one see each other and try to bring good things into there own product, Its same for us Indians ..

The unreliability in quality can be addressed in two ways, is 1. By appointing a third party quality check company from the private sector or scientists from IIT's,
Or let private company's manufacture it under DRDO's licence with quality material!

 

[Chris Jude]

Israeli will learn very fast why Bullpup is bad. Most western special operation guys run AR15 because it is the best platform. If you compare how fast an AR15 vs Bullpup run through a course it's not even close. Bullpup will always be slower. It awkwardness to shoot a bullpup. From changing magazine to setting up the shot it all slow, as in snail slow compare to conventional rifles. With a very short forgrip controlling a bullpup is a task within itself.

The French is giving up on their bullpup. They might go for AR15 variant. The British have a large number of AR15 so I won't surprise if they go for AR15 platform when the time comes to replace their bullpup. The UK placed a large order for LMT 7.62x51 AR10/SR25 (AR15 big brother) a few years ago.

LMT .308 Modular Weapon System (MWS) Monolithic Rail Platform (MRP) Semi-Auto 7.62mm NATO Tactical AR Battle Rifle/Carbine | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the l

LMT MWS - recent pictures of the rifle serving the British in Afghanistan - AR15.COM

Just because the Bullpup is hard to use for some one it doesn't mean it's bad for everybody, Israel is never going to change because its a weapon of choice in Israel !

 

[WolfPack86]

I thought army going to order for 6 lakhs excalibur rifles and also conducting trials.

 

[Black knight]

The best possible choices before army are HK416,G36,kbs wz. 1996 Bery,AK101 and AK103.
kbs wz. 1996 Bery

HK416

G 36

AK101

AK-103

how about M4
I think it s one of the best 5.56mm AR

 

[Chris Jude]

Answer these two questions.

1 If tar 21 is such a bad rifle(as per you) .Then why is it issued to the elite units of Israel ,where as other units still have m4 and m16 which are much better (as per you)?

2 In India we have 4 different special forces ,all of them make their own independent purchase irrespective of what other are using.One of them is covert and it was the first one to receive tar 21 in India.The other three had previously been using three different standard assault rifle vz 58,ak 47/56 and ak 101 respectively.Among them, para sf were the first to receive tar 21.Which are actively engaged in combat ,in confined areas (villages and cities),in dense jungles,in hills and mountains in J&k.After that the garuds adopted tar followed by marcos.Now, what i want to ask you is this, if tar 21 was that bad why would other special forces follow para sf,when they could have easily gone for some other rifle just as they previously did?And that too after tar 21 had spent considerable amount of time in active combat under para sf,so its fault would be right out in the open for other forces to see and gauze before deciding to adopt it,why?

This gentleman is biased against bullpup,just like you.See what he has to say about tar 21.Please do hear.


AND what about him


I have never fired tar 21,but the fact that it has been adopted by all the special forces in my country,what these two gentlemen featured above have to say and the fact that tar 21 has build a good reputation throughout the world is enough for me ,to be convinced that most things are right in this assault rifle.

Can you fire like this with ur AR

Now coming to the link you provide about x95.Few things from that same poster.

I've never gotten to even handle the full size Tavor but friends of mine from earlier drafts that got to either train or work for a short period with them before switching over really liked them a lot.

From what I've been told this is a X95 issue, all my friends that had full size experience didn't have these issues.

While other member posted in same thread
My Tavor is a thing of beauty. More so for it's reliability than for it's looks. It has become my "go to" rifle and has an ELCAN SpecterDR Dual Role optic and a Docter red dot piggyback backup sight.

First let me make something clear,no one is down grading AR here, definitely not projecting tar 21 as the ultimate assault rifle(as for being one,one has to have no disadvantage,down point or flaw)which is not true for a single assault rifle out there.You have to make compromise here and there,at the end you have to decide the main purpose for the rifle.Tar 21 being made to fight, perform the main purpose of good assault rifle well.It has its own share of advantages and disadvantage when compared with ar.But if you compare all the points in different areas and then make the final assessment, tar 21 will fair better than ar over all.

The Good

The TAVOR SAR (hereafter referred to as simply "the TAVOR") is exceedingly compact. It fits in places where only an SBR could previously go, including small trunks and briefcases. Which makes it much easier to sneak the gun in and out of your apartment building without getting the stink-eye from the neighbor with the Obama/Biden '12 sticker. It also makes the gun more maneuverable, an especially prized feature for close quarters-style fighting. In fact, for that reason alone, this might have sprung straight to the top of my recommendation list for home defense rifles.

I have to admit to spending a good half hour clearing my apartment with the rifle over and over again, and compared to my previous rifle of choice (300 BLK AR-15) it was delightfully sleek and unobtrusive. Having all the weight of the gun behind the pistol grip allowed me to free my support hand to open doors or hold a flashlight without ever really losing control of the rifle. For the first time, this gun allowed me to open a door and keep the rifle shouldered and ready to fire at the same time. I loved it.

The rifle's design, with its easy disassembly and modularity, is excellent in theory as well as practice.

Field stripping the gun for cleaning is easy as pie. One pin and the whole bolt and piston assembly slides free, opening the gun up for maintenance. It's a welcome change from the complicated dance of the AR-15 and its charging handle, which has thrown many a newbie for a loop when tearing the gun down for the first time. Definitely something that new and experienced shooters alike will appreciate.

With the push of a couple pins and the turn of a couple keys, the gun will readily convert from the current 5.56 NATO configuration to any other caliber that can fit in an AR-15 magazine well. According to the IWI reps, a .300 AAC Blackout conversion kit will be available within the year and a 9mm and 5.45×39 kit are already in production. It's nice to see a rifle that can be changed so radically with such little work. By comparison, the AR-15 requires specialized tools and more to get the barrels changed out. It's so daunting a task that I prefer to buy a new complete upper than to swap a barrel myself.

Moving forward on the gun, there are two things I want to point out as particularly excellent.

First, the forward-mounted charging handle. Not only is it non-reciprocating (averting the only complaint about the SCAR I have) so you don't bash your knuckles, but it falls readily to hand and is easy to operate. In short, it just works.

Speaking of "there when you need it," the thing just refuses to die. I used the worst ammunition I could find, the worst magazines I could muster (including some experimental models), and tried everything I could think of to make this gun jam. But no matter what I did, the TAVOR fired reliably every single time.

Bad (as pointed by you)

Trigger -it's heavy

Yes it is.But does it mean it is bad?The person in the video posted above mention this "the trigger is heavy but turns out to be a good one".It's heavy but a lot of that is due to the additional springs included to help force the trigger to reset even if the mechanism is full of sand (IWI overengineered the thing. Thoroughly). People have removed one of those springs and managed to get much more reasonable trigger weights out of them.

One can easily modify trigger by themselves (by removing extra spring) and bring down the trigger weight around ar .

Range- accuracy long ranges

This i will hand it down to you .AR has better accuracy in long ranges,but this does not mean tar 21(18 inch barrel) fails at long ranges,it is still effective at long ranges just that ar is better at it,but you can easily bring down a target at 500 yards with tar 21,most of the modern battle particularly special forces firefight happens anywhere to the range of 300 yards where it is quite effective.See tar 21 at 500 yards in rain.


Suppressed problems-Yes it is a major issue to some but then for some it does not seem so.I cannot find much detail about it so i guess have to hand it to you.Though i guess there is some replacement ejection port cover being provided which seem to tackle this issue.

Only good as a range toy-Yes but for whom ?civilians ,who can go in a precision firing competition (but this rifle was not made for that),cannot go to hunting (at long ranges yes there are far more better rifle made for that),can go to firefight-(this is the main purpose for which this rifle was created but being civilian i do not think you can make use of it)

Price- This is a point from my side .As i feel it is a bit overpriced,to be frank if it has to be made as cheap as an ar than i think you feel see a lot more of it than the traditional AR.


So in the end tar 21 is a compact,reliable rifle which has good ergonomics along with good weight distribution which make it a lot easier to handle.It has very good accuracy upto 300m and reasonably accurate at much longer ranges .It's not an precision rifle,its an assault rifle meant for battle where you know all the shooting is based on reflex action(where tar 21 excels due to its weight distribution and ergonomics),m4 maybe better at long ranges but then you cannot set the limit for ur firefight in a battle.You would have to face any situation in a battle ,and hence a weapon which excel overall in most of the situation is a better choice.

Good marketing tactics-Tavor is being used by "military" special forces of Azerbaijan,Brazil,Colombia,Georgia,Guatemala,India ,Philippines,Portugal,Thailand and Ukraine .If all of these just bought some uber expensive junk just based on marketing (without any trials and inspection and handling)than god save all.

The person who is featured in the video above have borrowed tar from someone ,so no he has not paid for it.Plus "Tar 21 SUCKS" you will find people all over the world who share similar thought for one or the other product.The main factor which decide reputation about the product is whether the people that hold such thought are in minority or majority.And my friend i have to say you are in minority as far as it goes for tar 21.

note*- I am having problem in posting in the forum so was not able to properly highlight and underline important points.So please excuse for the poor presentation.

An excellent and detailed reply !

 

[halloweene]

how about M4
I think it s one of the best 5.56mm AR

nope A4 is very susceptible to fouling. Conversely as it uses a piston, HK 416 isn't, but it is heavier and a very "wet" weapon, designed for very heavy fire conditions. (and expensive weapon with heavy barrel)

 

[Black knight]

nope A4 is very susceptible to fouling. Conversely as it uses a piston, HK 416 isn't, but it is heavier and a very "wet" weapon, designed for very heavy fire conditions. (and expensive weapon with heavy barrel)

But it is far better than FN FAL G36C :blah::blah::blah::blah:

 

[halloweene]

Definitely. I used it and loved it... (416). A4 is light like a toy gun, but i'd definitely choose 416 for ops. As i said it is a little maintenance (specially oiling) intensive and its heavy barrell is more designed for SFs than "regular" (very intensive shooting conditions). Good choice anw. When i was under service, SCAR and ARX160 polymers were quickly heating too much, but i guess they corrected that. The new SIG seems nice also, 416 like but simpler to dismount/mount. Never shot with it.
I wouldn't consider G36 (except for amphibious troops) considering the barrel probs german army had with it.

PS i was using HK416 A2, i think they ar on A5 or A9 version now... Oldies

 

[BATTLE FIELD]

only rifles will not work

what about various scopes and optics?

will the new AR (whatever it will be) will include scopes with it.

our every regular soldiers fights with iron sights, only lucky ones gets the scope.

 

[vkp171083]

What will be happen to jvpc program

 

[aagni99]

(30 characters...........)

 

[Sabru Foxtrot]

Indian Para Commando Counter-Insurgency Training

​

During night and weapons training and field craft involving 20 km treks with 60 kg (132 lb) loads and live ammunition are conducted. Weekly forced marches with 65 kg combat loads with distances over 50 to 80 miles and quarterly night drops with full combat loads are also conducted.

 

[Zarvan]

So which new Gun are you going for ?

 

[Bornubus]

So which new Gun are you going for ?

The previous tender already cancelled.

Hopefully GOI will open a new tender and new Rifle by 2035 and maybe Insas variants in between.

MCIWS is still in "testing phase"

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INDIA LOOKS LIKELY TO SCRAP MULTI-CALIBRE RIFLE CONTEST

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is likely to scrap its 2011 tender for 66,000 multi-calibre assault rifles after four overseas vendors failed to meet the Indian Army's qualitative requirements (QRs) in user trials that concluded in October 2014, official sources said.
The Czech Republic's Czeca CZ 805 BREN, Italy's Beretta ARX 160, the Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) ACE 1 (a variant of the company's ACR rifle), and the United States' Colt Combat Rifle (a M16A1 specially configured for the Indian contract) are competing for the INR48.50 billion (USD782.25 million) deal.
The contract cost includes reflex, day- and night-sights, and laser designators.

http://www.janes.com/article/51815/india-looks-likely-to-scrap-multi-calibre-rifle-contest

==================

The tender failed due to multiple Rifle failures in trails in India ..

The new gun is presently INSAS Excalibur MK1C ..

==========

Thread Closed, As its purpose is now ended ..

 

[Zarvan]

HIGHLIGHTS

• Army in search for more lethal weapon, junks rifle offered by the DRDO-Ordnance Factory Board combine.
• Decision taken to go for 7.62x51mm rifles with a higher kill probability and accuracy

NEW DELHI: Army has launched a fresh hunt for a new-generation assault rifle all over again. Rejecting the 5.56x45mm calibre Excalibur rifle offered by the DRDO-Ordnance Factory Board combine, the force has now decided to go in for a 7.62x51mm gun with "higher kill probability and stopping power".

In the race to acquire high-end weapon systems, from submarines and fighters to howitzers and helicopters, basic weaponry and protective gear for ordinary foot-soldiers often do not get the requisite attention and push by the brass.


But the Army says it means business this time, shrugging aside failed attempts to acquire new rifles over the last decade.

The RFI (request for information) for the new 7.62mm assault rifles is going to be issued soon to elicit responses from around the globe. "The GSQRs (general staff qualitative requirements) or technical parameters for the rifles will then be formulated before the actual tender is floated to invite bids," said a source.

It was in April that the Army commanders' conference first discussed whether the force required a 7.62mm rifle that "killed" or a 5.56mm rifle that "incapacitated" enemy soldiers, as was then reported by TOI.

"The decision has now been taken to go for 7.62x51mm rifles with a higher kill probability and accuracy at an enhanced effective range of 500-metre," said the source.

The military wisdom till now was that the 5.56mm rifle was better for conventional war because it generally injured an enemy soldier, tying down at least two of his colleagues to carry him in the battlefield. Conversely, the 7.62mm rifle was better for counter-insurgency since terrorists had to be killed at the first instance, eliminating the risk of "suicide bombing".

Soldiers largely use the 7.62mm AK-47 rifles for counter-insurgency operations in Kashmir and the northeast, even though the infantry is saddled with the indigenous glitch-prone 5.56mm INSAS (Indian small arms system) rifles.

The fully-automatic Excalibur, which fires 5.56x45mm ammunition, is a much-improved version of INSAS rifle that entered service in 1994-1995. But the Army now wants 7.62mm rifles for greater lethality.

The Army's overambitious experiment to induct rifles with interchangeable barrels, with a 5.56x45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62x39mm secondary one for counter-terrorism, miserably flopped last year.

As was first reported by TOI in May last year, the proposed mega project was junked since the rifles on offer by armament firms like Colt (US), Beretta (Italy), Ceska (Czech) and Israel Weapon Industries were not found cost-effective or suitable after extensive trials.

Under the project, 65,000 rifles were to be directly acquired from the selected vendor to equip the 120 infantry battalions deployed on the western and eastern fronts. The OFB was to then subsequently manufacture over 1,13,000 such rifles after getting transfer of technology from the foreign company .

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Arm...unks-DRDOs-Excalibur/articleshow/53027875.cms

 

[Raj Malhotra]

So anything DRDO makes, Army junks and comes up with new demand? Let them use Isapore 7.62x51 or let DRDO develop 7.62x51 version of Excaliber or MCIWS.

 

[Pandora]

Can we all twit to MP for this and asked for explanation from army? The way army changes its goal post ,am sure they even reject the vajra from lord Indra.