New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[cloud_9]

Sir i agree that it is too early to rule it out but if it is true the DRDO multi-cal will make its way into the F-INSAS project does that not mean the IA will be operating 2 different types of rifle for the foreseeable future (DRDO multi-cal and foreign rifle). The selection process for a foreign rifle is in quite advanced stages and a gun should be selected next year with it entering service in 2014. I don't see the why the IA would go down the route of trailing a multiple rifles and selecting them if they thought that they'd soon be getting just a good system from DRDO soon.

I have read somewhere that these rifles are part of the F-INSAS program

 

[AJ-47]

well it comes from the doctrine of wounding and killing the enemy. 5.56 for wounding (for enemy military) and 7.62 for killing him (for terrorists).

Since wounding the enemy soldier will use up 6-9 enemy manpower, therefore it is better to wound enemy soldier then to kill him, as dead soldier is useless.
For terrorists it is opposite. Wounded terrorists does not use up any terrorists as they never care for their fellow terrorists and they dont come to their aid. So dead terrorist is best terrorist.

Since IA is banging their heads for both this calibers therefore multi barrel rifle.

It was never been a doctrine like that, maybe a say that I heard 40 years ago, it was wrong then and it's wrong now. You shoot to kill and nothing else.
To move a wounded soldier from the battelfiled, is the job for the right people and not to anybosy else.

 

[AJ-47]

Right now there is no ammo which have combine capability these 2 ammo.

Try the 6.5/47 or the 7.0/43

Where 5.56mm has better penetration capability, on the other hand 7.62 is much bigger round give wound, has greater energy than 5.56 & can cause instant kill.

The killing is not go only with calibre, more important is the path that the bullet does in the body. Twist of 1:12 in 5.56 barrel might be more deadly than 7.62/39. You can also use the Beowulf 0.5" rifle, with this bullet you don't have to shoot twice.

IA want 5.56 ammo for conventional warfare where enemy has bulletprof vest etc.
while terrorist doesn't have this so 7.62 is better option bez instant kill by 5.56 is really rare.

In our days even terrorist might go with bulletproof vast.

IA is already using 2 type of this ammo for COIN & training so that IA using two type of gun for this Ak-47 & INSAS.
So inducting muti-barrel rifle will decrease logistic problems drastically.

Who is going to use the 7.62/39? a special team, police, sweat team?Those guys can get a different gun that is more suitable for this type of action. You will have to have 2 upper bodies for each rifle, different ammo, and that's a big logistic problem.

 

[AJ-47]

6.5 & 6.8 have capability of both..

6.5 have more kinetic energy at close ranges and out preform most other rounds where as 6.8mm have better results at longer range..

The 6.8 can replace the 5.56 for the 300 meter range to go to 600 meters the 6.5 will be better.

 

[AJ-47]

If that was the logic then, TAR-21 / X95 would not be in the list..

We dont know that TAR-21 / X-95 also have a 7.62m43 version, But it does have other wise wont be in competition on first place..

for now IWI don't have it, but as they have the 5.45/39 for another country, they can make the 7.62/39 for India. Israel don't think the 7.62 is a bertter round then the 5.56, and now there is the new bullet the 855A1.

 

[sayareakd]

It was never been a doctrine like that, maybe a say that I heard 40 years ago, it was wrong then and it's wrong now. You shoot to kill and nothing else.
To move a wounded soldier from the battelfiled, is the job for the right people and not to anybosy else.

Sir you should get updated.

 

[Anoop Sajwan]

The killing is not go only with calibre, more important is the path that the bullet does in the body. Twist of 1:12 in 5.56 barrel might be more deadly than 7.62/39. You can also use the Beowulf 0.5" rifle, with this bullet you don't have to shoot twice.

Killing probability depend on bullet size, yes there are very few exceptions. Becz bigger wound you give damage is much bigger. There are also very few instance when enemy survive even against sniper round.

In our days even terrorist might go with bulletproof vast.

Yes, but again very limited & these vasts are not also so good.

Who is going to use the 7.62/39? a special team, police, sweat team?Those guys can get a different gun that is more suitable for this type of action. You will have to have 2 upper bodies for each rifle, different ammo, and that's a big logistic problem.

These are not so special force/swat with few 1000s in no. That is whole army, more than 40k i no bro. & they service in RR for just 2-3 years & than return to their respective regular infantry battalions.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Both users have been warned to stop the personal attacks

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Mangal & @Immanuel

Both of your post are moved here :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/40047-m4-rifles-army-sf-units-8.html#post634028

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its simply because these two rounds are battle tested in Indian condition from last 10 years..

RFI was sended to all companies over the globe only few came out with there products..

1. I don't understand the idea behind the 2 different clibers. Is the 7.62/39 is so much better than the 5.56 in close range, that it's worth to go to all the dificulty in logistic, to have 2 type of ammo. and more parts?
In the same way of thinking we need to get maybe a third option with 7.62/51 for longer range.
A better way to go, is find the right calibre and built the rifle around it. May be a 7.00/43 will be the best choice.
2. Its look to me like few guns are missing, like HK-416, Remington ACR and maybe some more. Any reason for that?

Thanks
AJ

 

[Mangal]

RFI was sended to all companies over the globe only few came out with there products..

Doesn't that makes the whole process a bit handicaped since some of the best rifles are not in the competition? I was personally disappointed not to see FN scar in the race. I believe US SOCOM have gone for FN SCAR and HK416.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

FN is very good company but they didn't participate the reason is SCAR is not available in 7.62M43 nor FN have any interest to invest and make a new version for IA..

 

[Mangal]

SCAR H does fire 7.62 rounds. Are they diffrent from what Indian army asked for in their RFI?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

7.62x51mm NATO (Top). 7.62x39mm (Bottom)

Scar use the 7.62x51mm NATO

Where as IA want 7.62x39mm 1943 Soviet

SCAR H does fire 7.62 rounds. Are they diffrent from what Indian army asked for in their RFI?

 

[boris]

The 6.8 can replace the 5.56 for the 300 meter range to go to 600 meters the 6.5 will be better.

The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 round haven't been adopted in even small numbers by your SF(Green Berets) and SEALs. Do not go by what Discovery channel shows.

 

[AJ-47]

The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 round haven't been adopted in even small numbers by your SF(Green Berets) and SEALs. Do not go by what Discovery channel shows.

1. You have no idea what rifles the S.F use, they are using many types of weapons.
2. It's maybe true that no country use these calibers, but there is enough knowledge to tell that 6.8 and 6.5 are much better than 5.56mm.

 

[AJ-47]

Its simply because these two rounds are battle tested in Indian condition from last 10 years..

RFI was sended to all companies over the globe only few came out with there products..

Do you think that soldiers can change caliber in the field? It's much more complicated than just replace a barrel.
It's a good idea to have this option, but for a future caliber not to change every other day.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Individual soldiers dont change caliber by themselves, firearms are changed / Caliber changed and issued at armory before deployment as per need..

Do you think that soldiers can change caliber in the field? It's much more complicated than just replace a barrel.
It's a good idea to have this option, but for a future caliber not to change every other day.

-----------------

Jordanian guard witch consists of over 100k troops adopted 6.8mm as there basic rounds in AR..

It's maybe true that no country use these calibers, but there is enough knowledge to tell that 6.8 and 6.5 are much better than 5.56mm.

 

[AJ-47]

Thanks for that and it's the right answer. If you need to go to the armory to do the change, better get another gun in the 7.62/39 caliber. I saw in the Indian Counter Terror Operations Pictures that all the soldiers are equipped with the AK-47, and now I understand the reason to change to this caliber, you just have a lot of them, you used to work with them, you have the ammo and the magazine for them and that's good. For that I would go with the Galil that will be as close to the ak-47 than the other rifles. I'm not sure if there is a need to replace the caliber itself I, I think the army should have some guns with 5.56 and some guns with 7.62. I think that's will be a better choice.
Do you knew which type of gun the Jordanian have?

Thanks again
AJ

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Indian Army dont want to get another gun coz we not only use AK but also Insas, Insas is used coz its very accurate and longer range coz of its 5.56mm OFB round ( Heavier than SS109 ) also SS109, Now the Problem is a Single unit using two different guns and both guns need different spare ( gas tube, receiver, magazine and many more ) and this increase logistic chain, to reduce this Indian army looking for a Rifle which can adopt two different rounds with minimum changes done to them, this reduce logistic issue with spares..

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LWRC International 6.8mm PSD sub-carbine

The Firearm Blog » LWRC rifles to be license-produced in Jordan

If you need to go to the armory to do the change, better get another gun in the 7.62/39 caliber. I saw in the Indian Counter Terror Operations Pictures that all the soldiers are equipped with the AK-47, and now I understand the reason to change to this caliber, you just have a lot of them

Do you knew which type of gun the Jordanian have?

Thanks again
AJ