Need for Disproportionate IAF Revenge against PAF Misadventure of 27th Feb

[mist_consecutive]

First of all, let me first go through what actually happened on 27th Feb.

1. Multiple Pakistani fighters tried to ingress into Indian territory and attack Indian Army positions, for "revenge" against us striking their Abdul's hideouts at Balakot.
2. Multiple IAF jets were scrambled to counter PAF aggression, however, due to their superior ratio and tactics at that moment, were able to ingress into India and successfully dropped bombs at IA formations, though they were unable to cause any damage.
3. In the ensuing aerial battle, we shot down their one F-16, and they shot down one Mig-21Bison of ours.
4. To cover up their retreat, they started firing a volley of Amraam's from the F-16s waiting outside LoC at our jets, though none of our jets were hit, however, our one Mi-17V5, which was minding its own business, unfortunately, got hit and crashed, resulting in the death of 6 IAF personnel.

Before you jump on me and say, that was an "accidental crash due to technical snag", let us revise what actually happened that day.

Garand Kalan, place of Mi-17 crash side, something like 8 km - west of Srinagar.

Aerial engagement map

It is roughly 70-80 km from engagement site.
Range of Aim-120C5 AMRAAMs, which Pakistan posses, excess of 100km. From wikipedia

Now, time of aerial engagement - 0945 hrs - 1000 hrs.
And, time of the crash of Mi-17 - 1000/1010 hrs, source here and here.

Too big a coincidence, eh ? No. Helicopter's do not fall from the sky just like that. Even during complete engine failure (Mi-17 as 2 engines) and hydraulic failure, they have the capacity to glide down and make an emergency landing. Also,

Eyewitness reported that a loud explosion was heard in the air before the chopper crashed in a trail of smoke, indicating a possible catastrophic external event contributed to the incident. The crash — the chopper was airborne at 10 am and crashed at 10:10 am — coincided with the time IAF jets were scrambled to intercept PAF fighters approaching the border.

Source here

We can safely rule out technical failure. So, what theories remain?

1. It was shot down by BVR missile from PAF jet -- Most plausible.
2. It was a friendly-fire incident, our SAMs mistook it as enemy aircraft. Not Possible

• • No, Mi-17 took off minutes before from Srinagar AFS. Read this. It was well within radar record.
  • All IAF planes are fitted with IFF(Identification of friend or foe) system.
  • A slow moving and low flying helicopter cannot be confused for an enemy jet.

3. Some terrorist shot it down using MANPAD. No, no MANPAD has been captured/confiscated by our CT ops in the last 7-8 years. Highly unlikely.

IAF must pretty much know by now, even by initial analysis that, it is a victim of PAF missile.

So, coming back to the main point of revenge.

• We stuck their terrorist training camp, or in their words, just "few trees and crows". Whereas, attacked our army positions.
• They tried to attack our jets with BVR missiles which were inside our territory, and unfortunately, got a Mi-17 which caused martyrdom of 6 IAF personnel.

Question is, whether, IAF will swallow up this misadventure by PAF and pretend everything is equalized, or waiting for the right moment for retribution on PAF.

 

[Absolut_Vodka]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/90-older-mi-17s-to-get-electronic-warfare-suite/578891.html

The Air Force is upgrading the older variants of its Mi-17 helicopters by equipping them with electronic warfare (EW) suite to increase their capability to operate effectively in a hostile environment.
According to IAF sources, 90 of these medium-lift helicopters — 56 Mi-17 and 34 Mi-17 1V variants — will be upgraded by No.3 Base Repair Deport in Chandigarh in collaboration with state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). The IAF approached BEL in this regard last month.
The move to upgrade the older series comes in the backdrop of a project to retrofit the latest version, the Mi-17 V5 that entered services a few years ago, with similar EW equipment. Last year, BEL was also approached to equip some Mi-17s with advanced navigational aids.

The EW suite comprises of a radar warning receiver (RWR), a missile approach warning system (MAWS) and a counter measure dispensing system (CMDS). The RWR detects radio waves emitted by radars and electronic surveillance equipment whereas the CMDS enables the crew to imitate counter measures or evasive action against enemy radars and missiles by firing chaff or flares.
The MAWS is meant to alert the crew about any incoming ground or air-launched missile and also cue the CMDS to trigger. Mi-17 helicopters are used for special operations as well as close air support, logistic supplies and troop movement, requiring them at times to operate at low altitudes and slow speeds, thereby making them vulnerable to missile attacks.

 

[mist_consecutive]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/90-older-mi-17s-to-get-electronic-warfare-suite/578891.html

The Air Force is upgrading the older variants of its Mi-17 helicopters by equipping them with electronic warfare (EW) suite to increase their capability to operate effectively in a hostile environment.
According to IAF sources, 90 of these medium-lift helicopters — 56 Mi-17 and 34 Mi-17 1V variants — will be upgraded by No.3 Base Repair Deport in Chandigarh in collaboration with state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL). The IAF approached BEL in this regard last month.
The move to upgrade the older series comes in the backdrop of a project to retrofit the latest version, the Mi-17 V5 that entered services a few years ago, with similar EW equipment. Last year, BEL was also approached to equip some Mi-17s with advanced navigational aids.

The EW suite comprises of a radar warning receiver (RWR), a missile approach warning system (MAWS) and a counter measure dispensing system (CMDS). The RWR detects radio waves emitted by radars and electronic surveillance equipment whereas the CMDS enables the crew to imitate counter measures or evasive action against enemy radars and missiles by firing chaff or flares.
The MAWS is meant to alert the crew about any incoming ground or air-launched missile and also cue the CMDS to trigger. Mi-17 helicopters are used for special operations as well as close air support, logistic supplies and troop movement, requiring them at times to operate at low altitudes and slow speeds, thereby making them vulnerable to missile attacks.

Its possible it had MAWS and CMDS. However, any counter-measure system is not fool-proof. Plus, Su-30MKI jammed the AMRAAMs with Elta EL/M-8222 a self-protection jammer. A slow moving helicopter's evasive maneuvers will also not be par with a fighter jet.

 

[Anil47]

Question is, whether, IAF will swallow up this misadventure by PAF and pretend everything is equalized, or waiting for the right moment for retribution on PAF

To be honest the right moment was the very evening to strike Pakistani airbases Masroor, Air Base Shahbaz and Minhas. But this opportunity was snatched because Napakis had our pilot.

I am pretty sure after elections, the IAF will down their aircrafts, the tensions have not deescalated. This is my assessment.

 

[Armand2REP]

I don't think it was shot down by the PAF. The Pir Panjal Range is quite a barrier to confuse a radar trying to look into a much lower valley.

I think the real question is why didn't that flight of 4X MKI engage that flight of 24 PAF junks? Why was the only response a lone and outnumbered MiG-21 wing commander? MKI is supposed to be the front-line air superiority fighter of the IAF. If there was 4 Rafale up there most of those 24 PAF junks would be burnt toast.

 

[Mikesingh]

It's too late now. We lost a golden opportunity immediately after Abhi was released.

It's back to business as usual unless there is another terror strike from across. And this time we better be prepared for a riposte from Pak - not like last time when we were pretty much surprised by the PAF strike package.

All this talk of not going after them since we did not want to escalate, is so much bullshit!

 

[Akhileshwa]

It's too late now. We lost a golden opportunity immediately after Abhi was released.

It's back to business as usual unless there is another terror strike from across. And this time we better be prepared for a riposte from Pak - not like last time when we were pretty much surprised by the PAF strike package.

All this talk of not going after them since we did not want to escalate, is so much bullshit!

Sir you shouldn't say things like that. People might call you a paki

 

[Anil47]

Sir you shouldn't say things like that. People might call you a paki

We did lose a golden opportunity because they had our pilot. Plan was to unleash wrath on them otherwise. This is why ROE was strict, not to go after them and break the sphere.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Sir you shouldn't say things like that. People might call you a paki

We got a certain set of standards for that tag which @Mikesingh doesn't qualify.
Same isn't true with you. Differentiate between what he writes and you.

Asking for proof isn't a problem but asking for it again & again when entire thread was littered with it proves that the volume inside your skull is vacant.

 

[Akhileshwa]

We got a certain set of standards for that tag which @Mikesingh doesn't qualify.
Same isn't true with you. Differentiate between what he writes and you.

Asking for proof isn't a problem but asking for it again & again when entire thread was littered with it proves that the volume inside your skull is vacant.

Lol ok. You know in other two forums, I have made similar statements as I made here and nobody called me a paki. They had a proper discussion instead of lashing out and spamming pkmkb like a little kid. You should look into it. So many people star quoting my old comments and abusing me
Anyways I don't want to talk about it anymore. Peace.

 

[pankaj nema]

First of all, let me first go through what actually happened on 27th Feb.

1. Multiple Pakistani fighters tried to ingress into Indian territory and attack Indian Army positions, for "revenge" against us striking their Abdul's hideouts at Balakot.
2. Multiple IAF jets were scrambled to counter PAF aggression, however, due to their superior ratio and tactics at that moment, were able to ingress into India and successfully dropped bombs at IA formations, though they were unable to cause any damage.
3. In the ensuing aerial battle, we shot down their one F-16, and they shot down one Mig-21Bison of ours.
4. To cover up their retreat, they started firing a volley of Amraam's from the F-16s waiting outside LoC at our jets, though none of our jets were hit, however, our one Mi-17V5, which was minding its own business, unfortunately, got hit and crashed, resulting in the death of 6 IAF personnel.

Before you jump on me and say, that was an "accidental crash due to technical snag", let us revise what actually happened that day.

View attachment 33409
Garand Kalan, place of Mi-17 crash side, something like 8 km - west of Srinagar.

View attachment 33410
Aerial engagement map

View attachment 33411
It is roughly 70-80 km from engagement site.
Range of Aim-120C5 AMRAAMs, which Pakistan posses, excess of 100km. From wikipedia

Now, time of aerial engagement - 0945 hrs - 1000 hrs.
And, time of the crash of Mi-17 - 1000/1010 hrs, source here and here.

Too big a coincidence, eh ? No. Helicopter's do not fall from the sky just like that. Even during complete engine failure (Mi-17 as 2 engines) and hydraulic failure, they have the capacity to glide down and make an emergency landing. Also,

Source here

We can safely rule out technical failure. So, what theories remain?

1. It was shot down by BVR missile from PAF jet -- Most plausible.
2. It was a friendly-fire incident, our SAMs mistook it as enemy aircraft. Not Possible

• • No, Mi-17 took off minutes before from Srinagar AFS. Read this. It was well within radar record.
  • All IAF planes are fitted with IFF(Identification of friend or foe) system.
  • A slow moving and low flying helicopter cannot be confused for an enemy jet.

3. Some terrorist shot it down using MANPAD. No, no MANPAD has been captured/confiscated by our CT ops in the last 7-8 years. Highly unlikely.

IAF must pretty much know by now, even by initial analysis that, it is a victim of PAF missile.

So, coming back to the main point of revenge.

• We stuck their terrorist training camp, or in their words, just "few trees and crows". Whereas, attacked our army positions.
• They tried to attack our jets with BVR missiles which were inside our territory, and unfortunately, got a Mi-17 which caused martyrdom of 6 IAF personnel.

Question is, whether, IAF will swallow up this misadventure by PAF and pretend everything is equalized, or waiting for the right moment for retribution on PAF.

The Mi 17 was not shot by PAF

PAF fighters were 40 km inside their own territory

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Lol ok. You know in other two forums,

Which two?

I have made similar statements as I made here and nobody called me a paki. They had a proper discussion instead of lashing out and spamming pkmkb like a little kid. You should look into it. So many people star quoting my old comments and abusing me
Anyways I don't want to talk about it anymore. Peace.

It depends upon the posters about which forum they are on.
On PDF, plenty of pakis tag their Indophile fellows as Indian stooges. Nevertheless, its filled with Pakistanis pretending to be Taiwanese, Americans or Brits (may be being Pakistani is shameful ). They are pathetically trolled on India forums.

As for this forum, we have history of entertaining lot of false flagged pakis pretending to be Indians. These reactions were likely thus.
For the sake of rationality, I don't think that calling you a Pakistani is good in anyway. I'm disapprove of any such kind of tag to my compatriots.

But that doesn't justify your drivel on the thread. You had 1,000-1,500 posts to read out and get the entire explanation.

But you chose to jump in between discussion putting a demand to get everything re explained for you. IMHO, read the threads. I will compile a timeline shortly for the conflict.

 

[Arihant Roy]

You guys need to hold your horses.

Are you sure IAF fighters havent targetted any military installations during the 27th Balakot strikes.

Are you absolutely sure that no further strikes have taken place in which some Paki installations were destroyed after the 27th air strikes.


Why are you guys going gaga over the need for revenge for the 27th Pak strikes. It was a botched operation. They were stopped in their tracks and their evil designs thwarted. Had they succeeded the 25th Div headquarters wouldn't be standing now.


And pls remember not everything that is done is leaked to the media OR told to the public through press releases and briefings. You guys need to calm down.

 

[Akhileshwa]

Which two?

It depends upon the posters about which forum they are on.
On PDF, plenty of pakis tag their Indophile fellows as Indian stooges. Nevertheless, its filled with Pakistanis pretending to be Taiwanese, Americans or Brits (may be being Pakistani is shameful ). They are pathetically trolled on India forums.

As for this forum, we have history of entertaining lot of false flagged pakis pretending to be Indians. These reactions were likely thus.
For the sake of rationality, I don't think that calling you a Pakistani is good in anyway. I'm disapprove of any such kind of tag to my compatriots.

But that doesn't justify your drivel on the thread. You had 1,000-1,500 posts to read out and get the entire explanation.

But you chose to jump in between discussion putting a demand to get everything re explained for you. IMHO, read the threads. I will compile a timeline shortly for the conflict.

One is bri and the other one is that with the username falcon. As for my drivel, a lot of other members were similarly abused by jingos but they stopped replying. Only I replied later on. As soon I would make a statement that differs even a little bit from the jingo narrative they started calling me paki and ISI. Kazakh, jack98 and a few users were also abused. This twitter level behaviour is not good for this forum just saying.

 

[pankaj nema]

Escalation will happen but after election

Because Govt will have to Raise taxes

And people dont like that ,Before Elections

Wars cost money

 

[mist_consecutive]

I don't think it was shot down by the PAF. The Pir Panjal Range is quite a barrier to confuse a radar trying to look into a much lower valley.

I think the real question is why didn't that flight of 4X MKI engage that flight of 24 PAF junks? Why was the only response a lone and outnumbered MiG-21 wing commander? MKI is supposed to be the front-line air superiority fighter of the IAF. If there was 4 Rafale up there most of those 24 PAF junks would be burnt toast.

Nothing else fits the tragedy. It is too precise to be a coincidence. Pir Panjal range has an average height of 2 km. Ambushing F-16s/other jets covering their retreat can be pretty well above that height.

From what I have gathered, as soon as MKIs and Mirages closed into PAF fighters, they started firing volleys of BVR missiles. To evade BVR missiles, jets had to break formations and do evasive maneuvers. This consumed time and gave PAF ample time to run away. One F-16 remained and continued dogfight with Su-30 and Mig-21, which again, quickly fled towards Pakistan. It was chased by Wg Cdr Abhinandan's Mig-21 and successfully shot down.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-dogfight-minute-by-minute-1472548-2019-03-07

 

[singhboy98]

I don't think the Mi-17 was shot down by a Air to Air missile. There are a couple of reasons as to why I think so. Indeed, the AMRAAM may hit a Target at 100km under ideal conditions. But, the Mi-17 was either just taking off or was flying at a very low altitude (from what I could gather. Feel free to correct me on this). At such altitudes coupled with the mountanious terrain, the helicopter would/should have been lost in the ground clutter. I don't think that the heptr would have been visible to the Pakistani radars (with all the EW and radar jamming going on) let alone them getting a lock on it.

 

[pankaj nema]

You guys need to hold your horses.

Are you sure IAF fighters havent targetted any military installations during the 27th Balakot strikes.



Are you absolutely sure that no further strikes have taken place in which some Paki installations were destroyed after the 27th air strikes.


Why are you guys going gaga over the need for revenge for the 27th Pak strikes. It was a botched operation. They were stopped in their tracks and their evil designs thwarted. Had they succeeded the 25th Div headquarters wouldn't be standing now.


And pls remember not everything that is done is leaked to the media OR told to the public through press releases and briefings. You guys need to calm down.

Infact Several Military Installations have
Been targetted after that

Bahwalpur and Abbaspur are known to me

 

[mist_consecutive]

The Mi 17 was not shot by PAF

PAF fighters were 40 km inside their own territory

? They violated our airspace and attacked Indian Army formations. words of our official tri-service press conference. Multiple PAF formations, including F-16s, Mirages and Junk Fighters were roaming close to the border.

 

[mist_consecutive]

I don't think the Mi-17 was shot down by a Air to Air missile. There are a couple of reasons as to why I think so. Indeed, the AMRAAM may hit a Target at 100km under ideal conditions. But, the Mi-17 was either just taking off or was flying at a very low altitude (from what I could gather. Feel free to correct me on this). At such altitudes coupled with the mountanious terrain, the helicopter would/should have been lost in the ground clutter. I don't think that the heptr would have been visible to the Pakistani radars (with all the EW and radar jamming going on) let alone them getting a lock on it.

It was around ~ 70km. Plus, yes, your other points are valid. However, fluttering helicopter blades gives a huge RCS. It is not entirely impossible. However, the circumstances I have given, timing, helicopter falling after loud bang and engulfed in flames, indicates a potential missile hit.