NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

Kshithij

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If the results would be useful to defend the country yes, but that's simply not the case yet and "that's" what makes imports necessary.
The same can be said about imports too using your own twisted way of speaking. MMRCA deal was started in 2006 but signed in 2016. So, any import deal will only be signed after 10 years as this is what has been happening. There is simply no way yet.
 

Rahul Singh

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And I really hope that happens, but it only works if we improve ourself, learn from mistakes and make things with a more rational mindset.
Excuses, distractions, the usual blame game won't help any indigenous project.
Look around its already happening. Tejas is much more than what it was originally conceived.

Anyway, carry on..........GN.
 

Kshithij

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Economics of scale dictates the development of subsystems. So far Tejas has confirmed orders for only 20. With the increase in orders percentage of indigenisation with further increase.
Actually, there is no question of scaling or not for money. Defence are for security and survival. Money is secondary here. Moreover, the economies of scale come only in those places where simple economic relation exists. In defence, we are speaking of infrastructure creation which is funded by government as investment.
 

Sancho

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Look around its already happening. Tejas is much more than what it was originally conceived.

Anyway, carry on..........GN.
Sadly it isn't because it didn't met it's own development goals and gets minimum operational capability only with FOC.

Gn8
 

Rahul Singh

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Actually, there is no question of scaling or not for money. Defence are for security and survival. Money is secondary here. Moreover, the economies of scale come only in those places where simple economic relation exists. In defence, we are speaking of infrastructure creation which is funded by government as investment.
True, but when funding is limited there is a need to budget and prioritise spending. CSIO spent on development of HUD but left HMDS for the same reason............For MSMEs and SMEs economy of scale still stand relevant. No one will spend on the development of a subsystem unless they are assured of return which is guaranteed by numbers ordered..........
 

Kshithij

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True, but when funding is limited there is a need to budget and prioritise spending. CSIO spent on development of HUD but left HMDS for the same reason............For MSMEs and SMEs economy of scale still stand relevant. No one will spend on the development of a subsystem unless they are assured of return which is guaranteed by numbers ordered..........
It is mandatory that technology is developed for security. The scaling will be done subsequently according to requirements. The development cost is always on government, not on private sector. This is true eve in so called capitalistic countries like USA where the developmental cost of LM is given by US government. Even the capital investment for scaling is paid by government. Money spent on defence is money well sent. Budget can always be managed by one means or another.as long as it is not forex. Only in prototypes and LSP testing the imported contents are preferred as the iterations may lead to different specifications
 

Armand2REP

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'AKM' logic..........

IAF is very impressed with DRDO developed NETRA AEW but asking it on a bigger platform instead of ERJ-145. For that DRDO selected A330, not A400, wonder why?

Most powerful and mainstay of PLAAF is KJ2000 which uses IL-76s not AN-12 ripoffs.

Bottomline is not cheap but efficiently powerful. And requirements, more importantly, the size of the pocket determines which to choose and which not.

Gone so far from Turbofan vs Turboprop hence I rest my cause.
The bottom line is always cost, especially in India. They are not ASW planes covering a huge search grid, they are loitering in a circle so the hours they can stay aloft and quickly turn around to take up station are the most important aspects of its capability. India has a huge expanse with hostile nations so the requirement is dozens of platforms because you need two to maintain one station. If India bought that many A330s I would be happy, but realistically only the US could maintain a fleet that big.
 

abingdonboy

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There is a difference between opinion and truth. These analysis are horseshit opinions without considering fundamental ground reality. Even the 2008 crash was foreseen by many who understood oil price. USA invaded Iraq in 2003 for the same reason - to boost oil production in the long run. Iraq now produces 5.4mbd instead of 3mbd earlier.

One must be very careful in separating opinions from facts based truthful scenario. What I said is based on oil reserves. What did these analysts use to analyse?
Luckily 2030 is not far away and you’ll be able to see your error bro!


Or maybe I’m just too blind because I’m training to become a commercial pilot!
 

Rahul Singh

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The bottom line is always cost, especially in India. They are not ASW planes covering a huge search grid, they are loitering in a circle so the hours they can stay aloft and quickly turn around to take up station are the most important aspects of its capability. India has a huge expanse with hostile nations so the requirement is dozens of platforms because you need two to maintain one station. If India bought that many A330s I would be happy, but realistically only the US could maintain a fleet that big.
Yeah that is why IAF is not buying anymore ERJ-145 based NETRA instead A330!!!

India is not a small country like France with no conflict zones. We need AWACS with greater range and on station time. Ofcourse smaller AEWs can play contributing roles but they can never be a mainstay. IAF needs AWACS which can manage battles inside the enemy territory still flying significantly away from borders during the beginning of any war. For that, we need AWACS with greater Radar range hence a bigger platform with greater ceiling and sufficient power for electronics. Which is where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop so no A400 but A330.

Still, we won't buy as many A330s as UASF could. As our economy is overtaking only UK and France this year. In future, however, we might. But hey! By then we may very well be buying an Indian equivalent of A330.

 
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Rahul Singh

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Or maybe I’m just too blind because I’m training to become a commercial pilot!
Is it really! What a coincidence bro...............5 years into the banking sector, was already tired like a retiree. Stepped out to chase by childhood dream.
 

Kshithij

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They are not ASW planes covering a huge search grid, they are loitering in a circle so the hours they can stay aloft and quickly turn around to take up station are the most important aspects of its capability. India has a huge expanse with hostile nations so the requirement is dozens of platforms because you need two to maintain one station. If India bought that many A330s I would be happy, but realistically only the US could maintain a fleet that big.
Yeah that is why IAF is not buying anymore ERJ-145 based NETRA instead A330!!!

India is not a small country like France with no conflict zones. We need AWACS with greater range and on station time. Ofcourse smaller AEWs can play contributing roles but they can never be a mainstay. IAF needs AWACS which can manage battles inside the enemy territory still flying significantly away from borders during the beginning of any war. For that, we need AWACS with greater Radar range hence a bigger platform with greater ceiling and sufficient power for electronics. Which is where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop so no A400 but A330.

Still, we won't buy as many A330s as UASF could. As our economy is overtaking only UK and France this year. In future, however, we might. But hey! By then we may very well be buying an Indian equivalent of A330.

You are not understanding the reality of war. In war, the most important fact is that equipment can get damaged. So, it is always better to lose smaller and cheaper planes than bigger and expensive ones. It is always more convenient to mass produce cheaper AEWACS on SARAS instead of expensive ones on other planes.

Never underestimate the importance of time during war. Time is the most important factor in war. One can't afford to waste too much time to save some amount of logistical expenses like fuel.
 

Rahul Singh

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You are not understanding the reality of war. In war, the most important fact is that equipment can get damaged. So, it is always better to lose smaller and cheaper planes than bigger and expensive ones. It is always more convenient to mass produce cheaper AEWACS on SARAS instead of expensive ones on other planes.

Never underestimate the importance of time during war. Time is the most important factor in war. One can't afford to waste too much time to save some amount of logistical expenses like fuel.
See AWACS is not something which is still considered perishable even in the present scenario. An AWACS cover any battle from standoff distances still gets escorted by 4-5 high-performance fighter jets at all time. That is why these are considered HVT by adversaries........................As for smaller ones called AEW, well you can mount smaller AEW system on stretched SARAS or even on present SARAS and use it like SAAB 340 operates.
 

Armand2REP

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Yeah that is why IAF is not buying anymore ERJ-145 based NETRA instead A330!!!

India is not a small country like France with no conflict zones. We need AWACS with greater range and on station time. Ofcourse smaller AEWs can play contributing roles but they can never be a mainstay. IAF needs AWACS which can manage battles inside the enemy territory still flying significantly away from borders during the beginning of any war. For that, we need AWACS with greater Radar range hence a bigger platform with greater ceiling and sufficient power for electronics. Which is where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop so no A400 but A330.

Still, we won't buy as many A330s as UASF could. As our economy is overtaking only UK and France this year. In future, however, we might. But hey! By then we may very well be buying an Indian equivalent of A330.

France has the largest EEZ in the world covering 8% of the world's surface area and defence commitments all over the globe. They are peaceful today because we maintain a strong independent defence posture that is dictated by no one else. 95% of defence procurement is indigenous while India has increased imports to over 70% of defence needs. The NAL Saras is a solution to this problem with the addition of Netra AEW radar.

The assembly of A400M is in Spain so I couldn't care less who buys it, A330 is a French product so if you want it by all means, i still suggest India makes all possible indigenous solutions first. Importing 3 quarters of all equipment is unsustainable for any kind of power.
 

Kshithij

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There has been no major war recently to show that AEWACS is perishable. But, in war one must always expect the worst. 4-5 escorts are no big deal. The AEWACS are big fat planes and can be taken out by ground based SAM or BVR. The escorts really have no way of defending against incoming missiles. Since the planes have massive RCS, they will be easily detected from far away and targeting will also be much easier.

Moreover, importing is never an option in war. It is like expecting other countries to fight our war. If we fight, it will be with our equipment.

The mini AEWACS are actually much more useful during initial stages of war where air superiority hasn't been achieved yet. They are cheap and are expendables.

SARAS can also be extended into a bigger plane by altering the design. The design for simple planes like SARAS is not hard. The FBW etc are pretty straightforward. These are planes with high aerodynamic stability. So, once a smaller SARAS is made, it will eventually extend to a larger one with tens of tonne payload for military transport and bigger AEWACS.

See AWACS is not something which is still considered perishable even in the present scenario. An AWACS cover any battle from standoff distances still gets escorted by 4-5 high-performance fighter jets at all time. That is why these are considered HVT by adversaries........................As for smaller ones called AEW, well you can mount smaller AEW system on stretched SARAS or even on present SARAS and use it like SAAB 340 operates.
 

abingdonboy

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Is it really! What a coincidence bro...............5 years into the banking sector, was already tired like a retiree. Stepped out to chase by childhood dream.
Ah very similar story! After graduating a few years ago and working for a couple of years I knew it was time to pursue something I had always wanted to do.

What stage are you at bro?
 

Rahul Singh

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There has been no major war recently to show that AEWACS is perishable. But, in war one must always expect the worst. 4-5 escorts are no big deal. The AEWACS are big fat planes and can be taken out by ground based SAM or BVR. The escorts really have no way of defending against incoming missiles. Since the planes have massive RCS, they will be easily detected from far away and targeting will also be much easier.

Moreover, importing is never an option in war. It is like expecting other countries to fight our war. If we fight, it will be with our equipment.

The mini AEWACS are actually much more useful during initial stages of war where air superiority hasn't been achieved yet. They are cheap and are expendables.

SARAS can also be extended into a bigger plane by altering the design. The design for simple planes like SARAS is not hard. The FBW etc are pretty straightforward. These are planes with high aerodynamic stability. So, once a smaller SARAS is made, it will eventually extend to a larger one with tens of tonne payload for military transport and bigger AEWACS
.
I never said don't use SARAS as an alternative to EMB-145 for Netra. Once a variant of SARAS in such category is realised use it. Even a jet-powered variant could also be developed by sweeping the main wing of SARAS by certain degrees. This is certainly an attractive option for fielding a low-cost AEWs all across the border as well being an export category system. But the point is can these replace an A330 size platforms for effective command and control during the entire battle. The answer is no. Best they can do is act as a feeder for a bigger AWACS like A330/IL-76 based in Network Centric mode. Which is what the role of Netra would be during an upcoming battle.
 

Rahul Singh

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France has the largest EEZ in the world covering 8% of the world's surface area and defence commitments all over the globe. They are peaceful today because we maintain a strong independent defence posture that is dictated by no one else. 95% of defence procurement is indigenous while India has increased imports to over 70% of defence needs. The NAL Saras is a solution to this problem with the addition of Netra AEW radar.

The assembly of A400M is in Spain so I couldn't care less who buys it, A330 is a French product so if you want it by all means, i still suggest India makes all possible indigenous solutions first. Importing 3 quarters of all equipment is unsustainable for any kind of power.
We are what we are today is because of a reason other than lack of brains or/and resources. Fortunately, seeds for change have been sown and we are progressing on right track. I leave it to that.

Anyway, its too far from Turbofan vs Turboprop debate. So, I am summing up.

We did not select A400 despite the fact that it could have been used as a multirole platform for cargo roles because it's a Turboprop which negatively affects ceiling performance thereby affecting effective radar range. A crucial point for a proper AWACS.
 

kstriya

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Is there any chance wherein the NAL SARAS can be converted as a carrier borne AEW like the American Hawkeye?????????

30 character rule sucks........
 

Armand2REP

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Is there any chance wherein the NAL SARAS can be converted as a carrier borne AEW like the American Hawkeye?????????

30 character rule sucks........
Of course it can if your radar meets the payload restrictions.
 

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