NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[abingdonboy]

We only need transport planes for military cargo. Don't forget that oil is running out and hence these passenger planes may not be useful by 2030. We just need military transport planes

Passengers plane not useful by 2030? Don’t be silly bro.

 

[Kshithij]

Wrong, something is not better than nothing, because it needs to fulfil the minimum requirements to be useful in the first place. We can't accept developmenta that are below standards, just because they are indigenous, since it's the security of the nation that is on the line.

And please don't act as if they planned with overweight and drag as a justification for an obvious problem. Ignoring these issues doesn't help the projects, we need to address them to fix problems and to improve our capabilities, otherwise we will keep seeing projects scrapped like IJT, delayed for years like LCA and not even considered like RTA anymore.
Saras has the same issues and if we don't fix then and try to justify them, the project won't get anywhere either.

I think he has mentioned that for a prototype or technology demonstrator, it is conservative design. It is quite clear that the design is going to be improved with lot of weight reduction, improvement in payload etc in coming years. Initial prototype is never flown for real operations but to just test the aerodynamics and feasibility.

Passengers plane not useful by 2030? Don’t be silly bro.

I gave my reasons and they are valid. Do you have any to counter me? Also, I intended to say that any more commercial passenger planes are not needed. The existing ones will continue. This is because oil prices will be too high that the demand will be lower for passenger plane tickets and hence the number of planes will be cut down

 

[Rahul Singh]

Actually, Arabs have 3:2 ratio of productions to reserve compared to others. Arabs will run out of oil much later. Even Russia and Norway has similar production to reserve ratio as Arabs.

Other countries will run out pretty quickly. UK, India, USA, China, Nigeria, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Oman, Bahrain, Angola, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Canada etc are running out before 2035-40 itself. Arab crude will last till 2050.

Aren't you worrying too much too early?

Let oil run out and then we will look for options. As of now, many are entering Civil Aircraft Market and so should we.

Our market is so big and increasing so handsomely that we have every reason to lead this sector, instead of letting out jobs and money flow to Europeans and Americans.

 

[Rahul Singh]

There are actually twice as many operators of the E-2 than there are of the E-3 and aside from the USN and FN, they are all land based. Then the next most proliferated AWACs is the Eryie which is also half turboprop. Then the Chinese only indigenous produced AWACS is also a turboprop. They are cheaper to build and cheaper to operate while giving a similar performance, it is the most efficient choice.

'AKM' logic..........

IAF is very impressed with DRDO developed NETRA AEW but asking it on a bigger platform instead of ERJ-145. For that DRDO selected A330, not A400, wonder why?

Most powerful and mainstay of PLAAF is KJ2000 which uses IL-76s not AN-12 ripoffs.

Bottomline is not cheap but efficiently powerful. And requirements, more importantly, the size of the pocket determines which to choose and which not.

Gone so far from Turbofan vs Turboprop hence I rest my cause.

 

[abingdonboy]

I gave my reasons and they are valid. Do you have any to counter me? Also, I intended to say that any more commercial passenger planes are not needed. The existing ones will continue. This is because oil prices will be too high that the demand will be lower for passenger plane tickets and hence the number of planes will be cut down

And there’s nothing to back it up! Every industry analysis says passenger planes are here to stay and 2030 is far too soon to be writing them off.

 

[Kshithij]

Aren't you worrying too much too early?

Let oil run out and then we will look for options. As of now, many are entering Civil Aircraft Market and so should we.

Our market is so big and increasing so handsomely that we have every reason to lead this sector, instead of letting out jobs and money flow to Europeans and Americans.

And there’s nothing to back it up! Every industry analysis says passenger planes are here to stay and 2030 is far too soon to be writing them off.

There is a difference between opinion and truth. These analysis are horseshit opinions without considering fundamental ground reality. Even the 2008 crash was foreseen by many who understood oil price. USA invaded Iraq in 2003 for the same reason - to boost oil production in the long run. Iraq now produces 5.4mbd instead of 3mbd earlier.

One must be very careful in separating opinions from facts based truthful scenario. What I said is based on oil reserves. What did these analysts use to analyse?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Wrong, something is not better than nothing, because it needs to fulfil the minimum requirements to be useful in the first place. We can't accept developmenta that are below standards, just because they are indigenous, since it's the security of the nation that is on the line.

Then just buy of from outside see if it is any easy and uncompromising, Speaking of uncompromising did we forget Jagaur story wait wait wait before getting to it have we forgotten Gnat story?

From almost entirely making Jaguars any usable for IAF to 15 years of trying to buy MMRCA to now coming down to two fighter jets which were earlier rejected. Knowing these when someone speaks of 'uncompromisable standards' then it almost sounds like insanely biased and utterly hypocritical

And please don't act as if they planned with overweight and drag as a justification for an obvious problem. Ignoring these issues doesn't help the projects, we need to address them to fix problems and to improve our capabilities, otherwise we will keep seeing projects scrapped like IJT, delayed for years like LCA and not even considered like RTA anymore.
Saras has the same issues and if we don't fix then and try to justify them, the project won't get anywhere either.

It is a known fact that Tejas was designed with sufficient margin for safety and so were the others.

Anyway, I know where this discussion is going; the same old round circle. Had enough of it in past over last 10 years. So hands down. You won!!!......................I just can't stop being amused at the fact that A Jet(LCA) which was not expected to fly-off-the-Desk is now clocking flight hours in squadron service as Tejas.

 

[Rahul Singh]

There is a difference between opinion and truth. These analysis are horseshit opinions without considering fundamental ground reality. Even the 2008 crash was foreseen by many who understood oil price. USA invaded Iraq in 2003 for the same reason - to boost oil production in the long run. Iraq now produces 5.4mbd instead of 3mbd earlier.

One must be very careful in separating opinions from facts based truthful scenario. What I said is based on oil reserves. What did these analysts use to analyse?

Ok, i accept oil will run out. Jets will fly on alternative propulsion. Be it electric or any. Let P&W, GE, CFM, Rolls Royce figure out. We just need to have airframe ready.

 

[Sancho]

Then just buy of from outside see if it is any easy and uncompromising,

You can't compromise on the security of the nation. Pride doesn't defend the country, you need to provide our forces with a minimum capability to fight and not just some slogans, promises and a lot of excuses.
The fact remains, as long as the industry is not up to the task, there is no alternative to imports. While the better way is to jointly develop arms and techs, as Brahmos, Barak 8 and hopefully FGFA will show.

 

[Kshithij]

You can't compromise on the security of the nation. Pride doesn't defend the country, you need to provide our forces with a minimum capability to fight and not just some slogans, promises and a lot of excuses.
The fact remains, as long as the industry is not up to the task, there is no alternative to imports. While the better way is to jointly develop arms and techs, as Brahmos, Barak 8 and hopefully FGFA will show.

Who is sloganeering or being proud here? How will imports be of any use at all when they can't be used when needed nor procured in needed quantity as and when needed?

By which parameter is Indian Tejas or SARAS incorrigibly bad? Is it problem with industry or mere design problem which needs some upgrade? Is there any quality issue? Why is industry not upto the task? What is the problem? When things are being manufactured well, why speak nonsense?

Answer in specific details else keep quiet

 

[Sancho]

Who is sloganeering or being proud here?

Lol that's all you do on every topic! By the lack of proper arguments, all you do is find excuses. But that doesn't help any of the projects. It just proves bias, that's all.

How will imports be of any use at all when they can't be used when needed nor procured in needed quantity as and when needed?

And this proves your bias once again, because you ignore that every main part of Tejas is foreign too, be it engine, radar, probably EW, HMS, weapons...

And why? Because even after decades we still were not able to develop similar things on our own. So any licence produced foreign fight can be produced in India just as Tejas and is as dependent on foreign techs as well, until we are able to provide the same, at the same standards.

 

[Rahul Singh]

And this proves your bias once again, because you ignore that every main part of Tejas is foreign too, be it engine, radar, probably EW, HMS, weapons...

The main part of Tejas or for that matter any other aeroplane is its airframe. Not some LRU which are replaceable at will.

Even so, Critical computers of Tejas are indigenous allowing full exploitation of its capabilities, unlike any other licence produced fighter.

@Kunal Biswas, Please move this post to appropriate thread as it is getting way off the current topic. Sorry for the inconvenience caused.

 

[Sancho]

The main part of Tejas or for that matter any other aeroplane is its airframe. Not some LRU which are replaceable at will.

Without engines, the airframe can't fly, without radar, the fighter can't fight, without a working nose, the radar is underperforming. But I have no problem that they are foreign, because they still are better than the indigenously developed parts and they still keep the LCA programm alive. I only showed how silly the claim is, that foreign fighters couldn't be used or produced when LCA is as dependent as they are. But as long as we negotiate right and get good licence production deals, neither LCA nor a foreign fighter will have issues.

 

[Rahul Singh]

You can't compromise on the security of the nation.

All more reasons to spend on developing capability than buying it...........It is too idiotic getting bankrupt paying Locker's rental.

 

[Kshithij]

Lol that's all you do on every topic! By the lack of proper arguments, all you do is find excuses. But that doesn't help any of the projects. It just proves bias, that's all.

And this proves your bias once again, because you ignore that every main part of Tejas is foreign too, be it engine, radar, probably EW, HMS, weapons...

And why? Because even after decades we still were not able to develop similar things on our own. So any licence produced foreign fight can be produced in India just as Tejas and is as dependent on foreign techs as well, until we are able to provide the same, at the same standards.

Who is we here? Who told you that "WE" worked for decades? Tejas and Kaveri progress began during BJP time in 1999 and continued till 2006-7 when it was cut down by congress and it made little progress till 2015. So, "WE" had 8+3 = 11 years in total.

Radar was sanctioned in 2013 but started only in late 2014. So, that got 4 years. EW has been developed. Astra BVR has been developed and 50 ordered. HMD is developed by SAMTEL.

 

[Kshithij]

Without engines, the airframe can't fly, without radar, the fighter can't fight, without a working nose, the radar is underperforming. But I have no problem that they are foreign, because they still are better than the indigenously developed parts and they still keep the LCA programm alive. I only showed how silly the claim is, that foreign fighters couldn't be used or produced when LCA is as dependent as they are. But as long as we negotiate right and get good licence production deals, neither LCA nor a foreign fighter will have issues.

That only means heavy investment is needed to develop these quickly. Better to invest billions on research instead of imports

 

[Rahul Singh]

Without engines, the airframe can't fly, without radar, the fighter can't fight, without a working nose, the radar is underperforming. But I have no problem that they are foreign, because they still are better than the indigenously developed parts and they still keep the LCA programm alive. I only showed how silly the claim is, that foreign fighters couldn't be used or produced when LCA is as dependent as they are. But as long as we negotiate right and get good licence production deals, neither LCA nor a foreign fighter will have issues.

And without an airframe these are of no use, they just don't fly...........As for the red part. No Tejas is not just as capable but more capable than these foreign fighters because it is flexible because we own its sections which matters most............BTW except perhaps for engine everything else will be replaced with indigenous components in due course of time. That's how things works; called progression.

 

[Sancho]

All more reasons to spend on developing capability

If the results would be useful to defend the country yes, but that's simply not the case yet and "that's" what makes imports necessary.

BTW except perhaps for engine everything else will be replaced with indigenous components in due course of time.

And I really hope that happens, but it only works if we improve ourself, learn from mistakes and make things with a more rational mindset.
Excuses, distractions, the usual blame game won't help any indigenous project.

 

[Rahul Singh]

If the results would be useful to defend the country yes, but that's simply not the case yet and "that's" what makes imports necessary.

Only if you can complete any purchasing in time period smaller than development circle of a fighter jet. But as it stands 15 years (and counting) is still too small a time to buy MMRCA despite moving around with a bag full of dollars.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Radar was sanctioned in 2013 but started only in late 2014. So, that got 4 years. EW has been developed. Astra BVR has been developed and 50 ordered. HMD is developed by SAMTEL.

Economics of scale dictates the development of subsystems. So far Tejas has confirmed orders for only 20. With the increase in orders percentage of indigenisation with further increase.