Nag anti-tank Missile

[Bleh]

Amogh 1 and 2?

Amogha-3 unveiled, but never trialed indicating minimal progress (@porky_kicker can tell you more). Also none were wire-guided.

Bdw for now nag atgm is the only 3rd gen atgm ....which Ia can buy in numbers.....
Why not dedicated atgm carriers..

BMP-2 will carry ATGM already. Why not mount 2 Nags on them all. Less chance of getting taken out than a losing a dozen (6 out 6 in) missiles when (not even if) the huge unarmoured Namica gets blown up.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Bdw for now nag atgm is the only 3rd gen atgm ....which Ia can buy in numbers.....
Why not dedicated atgm carriers..

Available. To be inducted.

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

 

[patriots]

Amogha-3 unveiled, but never trialed indicating minimal progress (@porky_kicker can tell you more). Also none were wire-guided.



BMP-2 will carry ATGM already. Why not mount 2 Nags on them all. Less chance of getting taken out than a losing a dozen (6 out 6 in) missiles when (not if) the huge unarmoured Namica gets taken out.

Bdw namica will fire it's missile from maximum standoff distance.....to protect itself from direct fire....
Hope army will have perfect planning to deploy namica ...

 

[porky_kicker]

What kind of stupid ignorance is this - why the hell should drdo be developing a wire guided ATGM which is 2nd generation technology , outdated and obsolete.

Jo mane mae aya wo likh diya

Do you guys even know the difference between a 2nd generation wire guided ATGM ( without any onboard seeker ) and a 5th generation ATGM with onboard IIR seeker and with a fibre optic cable to provide " man in the loop " capability.

Functionally there is little difference between a 3rd generation ATGM like NAG with 5th generation ATGM like Spike LR except for the additional " man in the loop " capability , due to the inclusion of a optical fibre cable to send back imagery back and forth from the missile to the operator and provide retargeting capability while in flight . Is this a pressing requirement ? No.

HELINA , DHRUVASTRA uses RF datalinks in place of optical fibre cables to send information to and fro from the missile to the operator .

NAMICA has 2 EO pods to provide BDA etc so inclusion of OFC is not needed for NAG . Since Spike-LR of same range is not vehicle launched hence it doesn't have offboard EO pod , which uses the onboard seeker to scan track and acquire the target before launch or after launch with the operator in the loop through the OFC. Even Javelin doesn't have this technology . So now US army will start going for wire guided ATGM ? Zero sense in such nonsense.

MPATGM range is same as Spike-MR which also doesn't use OFC because range does not justify the use of the same in both MPATGM and Spike-MR.

Indian military is way behind Israeli military , same way Indian R&D is way behind Israeli R&D . So we also start importing Israeli generals into Indian military like we import Israeli weapons ?

 

[Bleh]

Bdw namica will fire it's missile from maximum standoff distance.....to protect itself from direct fire....
Hope army will have perfect planning to deploy namica ...

But why not distribute those dozen missiles to 4-6 BMP2s?.. They need ATGMs. Why seperate Namica?

And 3rd gen SAMHO for jeep-mounted ATGM teams only works on older/unupgraded tanks without laser-sensors. Its guidance beam will alert modern tank's crew & give them exact direction, they'll pull up a smokescreen... And fire back accurately.

So it needs to go passively guide from the target's pov. That means either wire-guided, or opticalfibre-guided as mentioned here (but much costlier);

What kind of stupid ignorance is this - why the hell should drdo be developing a wire guided ATGM which is 2nd generation technology, outdated and obsolete.

Do you guys even know the difference between a 2nd generation wire guided ATGM ( without any onboard seeker ) and a 5th generation ATGM with onboard IIR seeker and with a fibre optic cable to provide " man in the loop " capability.

Functionally there is little difference between a 3rd generation ATGM like NAG with 5th generation ATGM like Spike LR except for the additional " man in the loop " capability , due to the inclusion of a optical fibre cable to send back imagery back and forth from the missile to the operator and provide retargeting capability while in flight . Is this a pressing requirement ? No.

I read on another military forum a discussion (trying to find it) between Canadian & UK Iraq veterans. The above opinion is theirs not mine. They were saying `Just because it's named "2nd gen" doesn't necessarily make it more obsolete than the one named "3rd gen"ʼ.

America developed TOW-2B in 2004 based specifically on Iraqi war experience with Rusky 3rd gen ATGMs .

 

[porky_kicker]

But why not distribute those dozen missiles to 4-6 BMP2s?.. They need ATGMs. Why seperate Namica?

And 3rd gen SAMHO for jeep-mounted ATGM teams only works on older/unupgraded tanks without laser-sensors. Its guidance beam will alert modern tank's crew & give them exact direction, they'll pull up a smokescreen... And fire back accurately.

So it needs to go passively guide from the target's pov. That means either wire-guided like latest TOW-2B or 5th gen as mentioned here (but much costlier);
I read on another military forum a discussion (trying to find it) between Canadian & UK Iraq veterans. The above opinion is theirs not mine. They were saying `Just because it's named "2nd gen" doesn't necessarily make it more obsolete than the one named "3rd gen"ʼ.

The same logic can be used to justify re introduction of muskets in place of modern arms. Will you support it ?

2nd gen ATGMs requires operator proficiency and places the operator in harms way till impact . Cannot be use through vegetation and no NLOS engagement . Wire breakage is very common leading to loss of missile. Even a small bush can sag and break the wire of a 2nd generation atgm. Can be jammed unlike the misconception that it cannot be jammed ( look up videos of how shotra jammed tow wire guided atgms ). Only advantage is the low cost .

 

[Bleh]

The same logic can be used to justify re introduction of muskets in place of modern arms. Will you support it ?

Crossbows are still in limited use among SFs by similar logic of situational advantage.

No offence... You know more than me on this & make valid points, but I'm gonna trust more on words of actual veterans who got ineffectively shot with 3rd gen ATGMs on their tanks (unlike Indian ones who've not experienced actual tank combat in 50 years).
I also learnt there that, Hellfire missile has an wire guided version due to those mentioned reasons & 650,000 TOW in use including 1st world armies.

 

[porky_kicker]

Welp, technically crossbows are still in limited use among SFs by similar logic of situational advantage tho.

No offence... You know more than me on this & make valid points, but I'm gonna trust more on words of actual veterans who got ineffectively shot with 3rd gen ATGMs on their tanks (unlike Indian ones who've not experienced actual tank combat in 50 years).
I also learnt there that, Hellfire missile has an wire guided version due to those mentioned reasons.

The proof of the pudding lies in eating the pie , and importantly when the pie was cooked and eaten , 15 years ago , 10 years ago , 5 years ago , 2 years ago etc.

I know a military guy who swears by 303 says it better than modern assault rifles , that's ok as long as it's his life at risk only.

 

[Bleh]

I know a military guy who swears by 303 says it better than modern assault rifles , that's ok as long as it's his life at risk only.

This being a bit too uncomparable, one could argue that scoped-.303 may help in long distance engagements Himalayas or Afghanistan alongside assault rifles... if money is tight. Incase of mass ATGMs purchases, it is.


Yes, 3rd gen ATGMs can indeed slaughter Indian vanilla T-XX as well as Arjuns Mark1. But that may not be the case for long... You haven't produced better counterpoints on these;

1. Iraq war wasn't that long ago & they had plenty of 3rd gen Russian Kornet & Konkurs, which completely flopped against modern tank.
2. NATO countries who have actually engaged with tanks in 21st century (unlike us) still think it is a good idea to operate thousands of TOW.
3. It's 2B version was created right after the Iraq war drawn from its experiences.
4. We've got open country in deserts & ladakh, even part of punjab where wire snagging etc. problems will be less of an issue.
5. 5th gen atgm tech isn't ready for us yet. 2nd gen can be a stopgap alongside 4th gen, especially on chink front where they have laser sensors on most frontline tanks.

 

[porky_kicker]

This being a bit too uncomparable, one could argue that scoped-.303 may help in long distance engagements Himalayas or Afghanistan alongside assault rifles... if money is tight. Incase of mass ATGMs purchases, it is.


Yes, 3rd gen ATGMs can indeed slaughter Indian vanilla T-XX as well as Arjuns Mark1 in any open fields or deserts.


But that may not be the case for long... You haven't produced better counterpoints on these;

Iraq war wasn't that long ago & they had plenty of 3rd gen Russian Kornet & Konkurs, which completely flopped against modern tanks.

NATO countries who have actually engaged with tanks in 21st century (unlike us) still think it is a good idea to operate thousands of TOW.

It's 2B version was created right after the Iraq war drawn from its experiences.

I am having lot of problems with my stupid voda connection so I am left to replying with one liners . Anyways

Abhinandan shot down a 4th generation aircraft with a 3rd gen aircraft , so does it make 3rd generation better than 4th generation aircrafts as a rule ?

" Exception is never the norm "

Veterans trained on 2nd generation ATGMs throughout their career , will find it better due to experience and familiarity with the same .

Similarly veterans trained on 3rd gen ATGMs throughout their career will prefer 3rd gen atgms because of experience and familiarity using the same . They will also swear by the same . As 3rd generation atgms proliferate so will their acceptance .

" Personal opinion cannot supercede established facts as a rule "

Kill probability of 2nd generation ATGM is very low due to necessity of operator expertise and other disadvantages . Difficult to hit a moving target with a 2nd gen atgm , soft kill system like smoke screen , even fog dust smoke , vegetation will not allow a 2nd gen atgm to acquire and hit a target with ease .forget about NLOS capability.

3rd gen atgms have high kill probability greater than 80 . Also operator is not required to guide the missile . It is autonomous once target is selected. Operator proficiency is not a requirement . Fire and forget. NLOS capability.

konkurs and Kornet is 2nd generation ATGM not 3rd generation , one is wire guided and the other is laser guided.

Why is nato country developing and producing 3+ gen ATGMs then ?
Thousands of stocks of 2nd gen atgm will not disappear within a few years. OEMs will add new capabilities to 2nd gen atgms to keep their operational production lines open as far as possible. They will remain in use for a long time because of availablity and low cost untill replaced by modern generation atgms .

Later when my connection improves I will post a video of French troops in Iraq , a VBIED was moving fast towards their position , they used milan 2nd gen atgm to engage it , completely missed it , tried using heavy calibre guns , no use , VBIED was armoured , last moment they used a javelin 3rd gen atgm to destroy the VBIED successfully ( because of its 3rd generation capabilities ) . If they didn't have the javelin with them they would have died .

 

[Bleh]

Veterans trained on 2nd generation ATGMs throughout their career , will find it better due to experience and familiarity with the same .

Actually they were mostly NATO tankies discussing how worthless the laser-guided Russian atgms they faced were, how easy to detect & counter. Maybe a ATGM guy would have contradicted their opinions, can't say.

But it is true that the west basically did away on the laser guided ATGMs after Vietnam, now operating both wire-guided & fire-forget ones together.

3rd gen atgms have high kill probability greater than 80 . Also operator is not required to guide the missile . It is autonomous once target is selected. Operator proficiency is not a requirement . Fire and forget.
konkurs and Kornet is 2nd generation ATGM not 3rd generation , one is wire guided and the other is laser guided.

I'm sorry I've been calling SACLOS 3rd gen, but them laser-guided are 2nd gen & not truly F&F... Wire-guided are 1st gen.
Milan & Konkurs is 1st gen too.
Milan-2 & Kornet is 2nd gen.
Spike, Javelin, Nag, SANT, MPATGM, Helina, Dhruvastra are 3rd gen.

Hellfire has both 2nd & 3rd gen versions.

 

[porky_kicker]

My connection is shot will reply tomorrow

 

[Chinmoy]

any idea-if MPATGM(DRDO) planning to use OFC , in man portable atgm

If you are talking about MPATGM.............

This is the third series of successful testing of MPATGM. The missile is incorporated with state-of-the-art Infrared Imaging Seeker along with advanced avionics.

http://ddnews.gov.in/national-sci-t...t-tests-indigenously-developed-mpatgm-missile

 

[Bhadra]

Indian military is way behind Israeli military , same way Indian R&D is way behind Israeli R&D . So we also start importing Israeli generals into Indian military like we import Israeli weapons ?

Do not worry ... BJP ideologues Gurumurthy is working on that,,, he has already written an article proposing importing Generals .. probably next would be importing the PM and ideologue for BJP... nothing new in that...

Do not feel bad that you stooped so low... there are many to give you Company as this is India and everything is possible..

We do need some generals like the Israeli generals who can catch hold of some scientists and mount them on an ATGM to make them realize how it feels.. or test a bulletproof by making the scientist wear it and then fire a 7.62 X 52 cal on him.

So far there is no case for importing Generals because they have never failed the country so far. DODOs are but a failure unto themselves.

But the suspicion of Isreal bribing some scientists not to make MPATGM could be looked into... It is worth it.

 

[Bhadra]

Actually they were mostly NATO tankies discussing how worthless the laser-guided Russian atgms they faced were, how easy to detect & counter. Maybe a ATGM guy would have contradicted their opinions, can't say.

But it is true that the west basically did away on the laser guided ATGMs after Vietnam, now operating both wire-guided & fire-forget ones together.



I'm sorry I've been calling SACLOS 3rd gen, but them laser-guided are 2nd gen & not truly F&F... Wire-guided are 1st gen.
Milan & Konkurs is 1st gen too.
Milan-2 & Kornet is 2nd gen.
Spike, Javelin, Nag, SANT, MPATGM, Helina, Dhruvastra are 3rd gen.

Hellfire has both 2nd & 3rd gen versions.

I too have read some US writeup on what they should fallback to wire-guided ATGM as that negetes all modern countermeasures to waylay the missile.

I pointed out at wire guided varieties which BDL makes.

Boot look at this argument " Man in Loop"...necessitating wire gudence that this man is advancing ... is man in loop is required then how the hell a missile is fire and foregt and third or fourth-generation...

For a missile with a range of 2.5km where is time and space for being able put a man in the loop and change the target or flight path... virtually impossible. That is why MPATGM can never be LOAL system.

If there is a man in the loop after firing a missile from the man-portable ground launcher, take it that he is 90% dead.
There are reason why technology has overcome this problem and this man wants to go back to that on the scientific reason of man in Loop.... range - 2- 2.5 km... tank wala will take the shit out of that man in the loop with his MG only...

 

[WolfPack86]

Atmanirbhar Bharat: Why Is DRDO's Latest Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile More Than Special For Indian Army
DRDO has now achieved great success by successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank missile. The test was fired conducted from the MBT Arjun tank in Ahmednagar, Maharashtra




The country is moving fast in defence sector under AtmaNirbhar Bharat Abhiyan. Under this, DRDO has now achieved great success by successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank missile. The test was fired conducted from the MBT Arjun tank in Ahmednagar, Maharashtra. During this test, the anti-tank missile successfully destroyed the target at a distance of three kilometres. This anti-tank guided missile is precisely aimed at its target, guided by a laser.



Destroyed The Target At Three Kilometres



According to DRDO it has been developed with multiple-platform launch capability and is currently being technically evaluated by firing from a gun mounted in MBT Arjun. The missile has been successfully tested at the Armoured Corps Centre and School in Ahmednagar. The tests conducted revealed that missiles fired from the MBT Arjun tank successfully destroyed the target for three kilometres. Regarding the various features of the missile, the DRDO stated that the explosive rear armour of the anti-tank guided missile employs a hot warhead to defeat protected armoured vehicles. The missile has been developed with multi-platform launch capability and is currently undergoing a technical evaluation test from MBT Arjun's gun.

The Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile Is Made From Indigenous Technology


According to DRDO, this anti-tank laser-guided missile has been developed by Pune's High Energy Materials Research Laboratory in collaboration with Instruments Research and Development Establishment and Armament Research and Development Establishment Pune, Dehradun. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO for successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank guided missile from MBT Arjun. He tweeted congratulating DRDO "Congratulations to DRDO for successful test firing of Laser-Guided Anti Tank Guided Missile from MBT Arjun at KK Range (ACC & S) in Ahmednagar. India is proud of DRDO, which imports in near future are working towards reducing dependency." DRDO President Dr. G Satish Reddy also congratulated the employees on the successful test.

Successful Test of Combat Drone 'ABHYAS'



Earlier on Tuesday, DRDO successfully conducted combat drone 'drills' in Balasore, Odisha. It is a high-speed expandable aerial target, developed in ADE. According to the DRDO, this gives weapons systems a realistic threat to test, with the help of which various missiles or airborne weapons can be tested. The ABHYAS combat drones are designed for an autonomous flight with the help of autopilot. During this time, two demonstration vehicles were also successfully tested. According to DRDO, these vehicles can be used as targets for the evaluation of various missile systems.

Atmanirbhar Bharat: Why Is DRDO's Latest Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile More Than Special For Indian Army

A successful static firing trial of the new DRDO ATGM was conducted by DRDO last year DRDO has now achieved great success by success...

www.indiandefensenews.in

 

[WolfPack86]

No more imports, army kick starts process to order anti-tank guided missiles from Indian industry
Seeking to cut down the import bill, the army has kicked started a process to order new anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) from the Indian industry, preferring the domestic route for over 2,000 missiles, a number that could grow exponentially given its requirements.

The third generation ATGM project, which will replace thousands of Milan and Konours missiles that are currently in service, is being looked at keenly by the private sector, with some companies in advanced stages of prototype development.

The army has asked Indian companies – both private and public sector players like Bharat Dynamics Limited – to submit their `expression of interest’ in the program, which will be followed by the tendering process, trials and evaluations and commercial negotiations.


Spelling out its requirements, the army has said that the present anti tank capabilities have been in service for more than three decades and there is a need to catch up with other armed forces across the world that have third generation missiles.

“These systems have better accuracy, enhanced lethality, a higher kill probability, day and night operation capability and ensure better survivability for the operating crew,” an army document on the requirement says, inviting Indian vendors to develop a prototype to offer for testing.

While there are a handful of Indian companies that claim to have the technology, the army is open to them having a foreign collaborator as long as there is a minimum of 40% indigenous content (IC) as the contract will be processed under the Indigenous Designed and Manufactured (IDDM) category.

The army has promised the industry an assured order of 101 launchers and 2330 missiles if the trials are successful but the potential orders in the coming decade could be ten times this number. For example, just last year the army cleared the purchase of 5,000 of the older generation Milan 2T missiles to replenish stocks.

To meet immediate needs, the army has placed an emergency order for third generation missiles on Israel’s Rafael. The order is for 210 missiles and a dozen launchers and is being processed on the fast track basis.

Indian companies like the Kalyani Group and VEM Technologies have already initiated work on the systems, with others like Solar Industries also in the reckoning. Not to be left behind, the state owned BDL, which has manufactured the Milan series of missiles in India, too is ready with an offering. BDL launched its ‘Amogha III’ ATGM at the just concluded DefExpo in Lucknow

No more imports, army kick starts process to order anti-tank guided missiles from Indian industry

Seeking to cut down the import bill, the army has kicked started a process to order new anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM) from the Indian industry, preferring the domestic route for over 2,000 missiles, a number that could grow exponentially given its requirements. The third generation ATGM...

www.defencenews.in

 

[Bleh]

Atmanirbhar Bharat: Why Is DRDO's Latest Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile More Than Special For Indian Army
DRDO has now achieved great success by successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank missile. The test was fired conducted from the MBT Arjun tank in Ahmednagar, Maharashtra




The country is moving fast in defence sector under AtmaNirbhar Bharat Abhiyan. Under this, DRDO has now achieved great success by successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank missile. The test was fired conducted from the MBT Arjun tank in Ahmednagar, Maharashtra. During this test, the anti-tank missile successfully destroyed the target at a distance of three kilometres. This anti-tank guided missile is precisely aimed at its target, guided by a laser.



Destroyed The Target At Three Kilometres



According to DRDO it has been developed with multiple-platform launch capability and is currently being technically evaluated by firing from a gun mounted in MBT Arjun. The missile has been successfully tested at the Armoured Corps Centre and School in Ahmednagar. The tests conducted revealed that missiles fired from the MBT Arjun tank successfully destroyed the target for three kilometres. Regarding the various features of the missile, the DRDO stated that the explosive rear armour of the anti-tank guided missile employs a hot warhead to defeat protected armoured vehicles. The missile has been developed with multi-platform launch capability and is currently undergoing a technical evaluation test from MBT Arjun's gun.

The Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile Is Made From Indigenous Technology


According to DRDO, this anti-tank laser-guided missile has been developed by Pune's High Energy Materials Research Laboratory in collaboration with Instruments Research and Development Establishment and Armament Research and Development Establishment Pune, Dehradun. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh congratulated DRDO for successfully testing the laser-guided anti-tank guided missile from MBT Arjun. He tweeted congratulating DRDO "Congratulations to DRDO for successful test firing of Laser-Guided Anti Tank Guided Missile from MBT Arjun at KK Range (ACC & S) in Ahmednagar. India is proud of DRDO, which imports in near future are working towards reducing dependency." DRDO President Dr. G Satish Reddy also congratulated the employees on the successful test.

Successful Test of Combat Drone 'ABHYAS'



Earlier on Tuesday, DRDO successfully conducted combat drone 'drills' in Balasore, Odisha. It is a high-speed expandable aerial target, developed in ADE. According to the DRDO, this gives weapons systems a realistic threat to test, with the help of which various missiles or airborne weapons can be tested. The ABHYAS combat drones are designed for an autonomous flight with the help of autopilot. During this time, two demonstration vehicles were also successfully tested. According to DRDO, these vehicles can be used as targets for the evaluation of various missile systems.

Atmanirbhar Bharat: Why Is DRDO's Latest Laser-Guided Anti-Tank Missile More Than Special For Indian Army

A successful static firing trial of the new DRDO ATGM was conducted by DRDO last year DRDO has now achieved great success by success...

www.indiandefensenews.in

This is MPATGM & CLGM... Not the OG Nag in case anyone was wondering.

 

[Dessert Storm]

This is MPATGM... Not the OG Nag in case anyone was wondering.

Hope it is really kick-started, not kicked down the road.

 

[Bleh]

Hope it is really kick-started, not kicked down the road.

Nah both shown good promise from the start. Not a single hitch.