Nag anti-tank Missile

[plugwater]

My question is why IA came out of sleep when it is supposed to get inducted, and delayed the induction. Why it can not start induction, and get the upgraded version in next batches?

In my first post itself i said the mistake is on army's side.
I told some points which must have been the reasons behind this new request from army.

 

[nitesh]

In my first post itself i said the mistake is on army's side.
I told some points which must have been the reasons behind this new request from army.

And my question is that why these things have not been raised when the trials where on, and then suddenly once induction is imminent then these are used as excuse to push the induction date further?

 

[plugwater]

And my question is that why these things have not been raised when the trials where on, and then suddenly once induction is imminent then these are used as excuse to push the induction date further?

Probably because they must have felt the need of extra panoramic sight is very much necessary. They ll induct once the changes have been done.

IA could blindly reject this product instead they have asked for some changes. They failed to ask this earlier so i agree its army's fault but we ll never know the real reason behind this.

One mistake from IA and we are going berserk, how many times DRDO has failed to meet the deadline in any project? In those times i could see no reactions like this, why ?

 

[nitesh]

Probably because they must have felt the need of extra panoramic sight is very much necessary. They ll induct once the changes have been done.

IA could blindly reject this product instead they have asked for some changes. They failed to ask this earlier so i agree its army's fault but we ll never know the real reason behind this.

One mistake from IA and we are going berserk, how many times DRDO has failed to meet the deadline in any project? In those times i could see no reactions like this, why ?

Are you trying to justify the delay in induction by saying that DRDO has not met the dead line? Have we suggested that DRDO is perfect? IA as user keeps running the trials for years, and suddenly comes up with suggestions to make changes otherwise they will not induct. What is the justification for that

 

[plugwater]

Are you trying to justify the delay in induction by saying that DRDO has not met the dead line? Have we suggested that DRDO is perfect? IA as user keeps running the trials for years, and suddenly comes up with suggestions to make changes otherwise they will not induct. What is the justification for that

What i said has nothing to do with Namica or Nag. I am just saying we don't bash DRDO as much as we bash IA. Whenever IA issues some RFI we go on ranting about army being corrupt and trying to kill indigenous products. I dont see such reactions whenever DRDO delays some projects.

I have no justification for this issue. IA is wrong in delaying this induction.

 

[sayareakd]

for so many years Nag was been tested from Namica, now when the Nag came for induction with IA suddenly DGMF wake up and pointed fingers at Namica.

If DGMF did not check Namica when firing NAg and didn't reported the same then this is serious. I wonder if IA ever issued GSQR for ATGM vehicle.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rhetoric aside, what was IA doing till this time the trials were done? Did they were un aware of the particular feature till "final validation trials". What exactly had stopped them from asking it when the trials were getting conducted?

They had ordered it before trials were even done. They were under pressure from MoD to order indigenous weapon systems as part of the campaign to buy "Made in India." That is when we started seeing orders for Akash, Nag, Arjun, Dhruv, LCA all in the same time frame. MoD was under pressure from GoI to reduce that 70%+ deficit in arms imports ASAP. Now the rush is costing...

 

[nitesh]

What i said has nothing to do with Namica or Nag. I am just saying we don't bash DRDO as much as we bash IA. Whenever IA issues some RFI we go on ranting about army being corrupt and trying to kill indigenous products. I dont see such reactions whenever DRDO delays some projects.

I have no justification for this issue. IA is wrong in delaying this induction.

manc, is it so difficult to see that it is deliberate ploy to stop the induction? No body tries to say DRDO is perfect, but questioned is getting raised why the ploy to derail the induction after all sort of trials were done?

 

[nitesh]

They had ordered it before trials were even done. They were under pressure from MoD to order indigenous weapon systems as part of the campaign to buy "Made in India." That is when we started seeing orders for Akash, Nag, Arjun, Dhruv, LCA all in the same time frame. MoD was under pressure from GoI to reduce that 70%+ deficit in arms imports ASAP. Now the rush is costing...

Armand, i think you are getting in to tangent. The question is raised because why delay the induction when all the trails where done, and based on that scuttle the process of induction

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand, i think you are getting in to tangent. The question is raised because why delay the induction when all the trails where done, and based on that scuttle the process of induction

I have only made one post so it is a little hard for me to be "off on a tangent." You asked a question, I answered it. IA had to rush it for political reasons, and upon further evaluation did not like going without a commander's sight. The final trials were going well into last year, this bit of news may be dated back then and we are just hearing about it. IA is free to request any changes they want before they ramp up the production line. It is far easier and cheaper to fix before you pull the lever than after. The real question is why does it take a year just add a scope, and why do you need a competitive tender for a new Namica?

 

[nitesh]

I have only made one post so it is a little hard for me to be "off on a tangent." You asked a question, I answered it. IA had to rush it for political reasons, and upon further evaluation did not like going without a commander's sight. The final trials were going well into last year, this bit of news may be dated back then and we are just hearing about it. IA is free to request any changes they want before they ramp up the production line. It is far easier and cheaper to fix before you pull the lever than after. The real question is why does it take a year just add a scope, and why do you need a competitive tender for a new Namica?

Armand, it is just an imagination that the changes were requested before, and coming to know about it now. It is always possible to start inducting in batches and improve. This way the production of missiles will stabilize and numbers will add up. It does not makes any sense to stop holding it, as I previously posted "If you can not kill the rider kill the horse"

 

[Armand2REP]

It is indirectly the fault of DRDO on two levels. First, if they had been more successful in meeting forces requirements, 73% of all arms wouldn't be imported rushing the process. Second, they should have foreseen and communicated with the Army for a commander's sight. It is pretty standard kit and an absurd oversight. Everyone wants to blame the Army... it really goes on DRDO.

 

[nitesh]

Uh don't bash DRDO for the sake of it, it was IA who was involved in trials, and if they needed extra sight, they could have very well communicated it before hand. Not waited for eternity for the trials to get over, and suddenly wake up and stop the induction process.

 

[p2prada]

On what basis, you come to conclusion that the requirements where given much before? I have not came across such news, if you have please point it out. Sorry but unable to understand "platform firing version", what exactly you mean?
First of all, the "final validation trials" where done in which the capability for hit the stationary and moving targets where established, also the namicas have proven there capability to cross the water channels. As of now it has one sight, now two sights getting demanded which will definitely require the redesign. Was IA sleeping till this time? Why it is so problematic to start inducting it and seek batch wise improvements?

The article says,
"Two systems would be made — one by Bharath Electronics Limited (BEL) and the other by Larsen & Toubro."

This means contracts have already been signed. Thus requirements would have existed even 6 months from now. Contract signing takes minimum 2 months because of the scope of the project.

Platform firing weapons means Nag being fired from the BMP-II or the LCH, where BMP-II or LCH is the platform and Nag is the weapon. It simply means Nag is not hand held.

The final validation trials have not taken place. This is what the article has to say,
" the sources said adding the DRDO proposed to carry out a guided flight test against a tank target by the end of the year,"

This means Nag has not even been used on a tank until now. They were all used on dummy targets. Nag tests are meant to end only in 2011-12. This means the new platform will be ready the same time as Nag.

 

[p2prada]

There is no controversy happening. Nag is not ready for induction and the Army is going for a better platform before induction, that's all.

Namica is ancient. It's not fit for export let alone induction in India. It does not even compare to the American made and to be retired M-2 Bradleys. Also, IA will never induct a platform that is still undergoing tests and is yet to be certified.

I hardly think it is IA's fault that Namica does not even have Commander's sight. More importantly, the other modifications seem more important, especially wiring and internal estate which would define it's future upgrade capability.

 

[nitesh]

The article says,
"Two systems would be made — one by Bharath Electronics Limited (BEL) and the other by Larsen & Toubro."

This means contracts have already been signed. Thus requirements would have existed even 6 months from now. Contract signing takes minimum 2 months because of the scope of the project.

This is speculation at best. No substance

Platform firing weapons means Nag being fired from the BMP-II or the LCH, where BMP-II or LCH is the platform and Nag is the weapon. It simply means Nag is not hand held.

If it is supposed to be fired from BMP II then why Namica was designed? And HELINA is different version, no relation with Nag which is fired from namica.

The final validation trials have not taken place. This is what the article has to say,

From the article:

After the completion of the missile's "final validation trials" in the Chandan Air Force ranges in Rajasthan in July last, it was anticipated that it would be inducted into the Army this year.

" the sources said adding the DRDO proposed to carry out a guided flight test against a tank target by the end of the year,"
This means Nag has not even been used on a tank until now. They were all used on dummy targets. Nag tests are meant to end only in 2011-12. This means the new platform will be ready the same time as Nag.

Don't do selective posting to twist:
the complete line, which is for HELINA

Recently, flight-testing from a ground-based launcher to establish the guidance scheme featuring "lock-on after launch" concept was conducted successfully at a range of 4.2 km, the sources said adding the DRDO proposed to carry out a guided flight test against a tank target by the end of the year,

 

[nitesh]

There is no controversy happening. Nag is not ready for induction and the Army is going for a better platform before induction, that's all.

Why all this noise after getting "final validation trials"

Namica is ancient. It's not fit for export let alone induction in India. It does not even compare to the American made and to be retired M-2 Bradleys. Also, IA will never induct a platform that is still undergoing tests and is yet to be certified.

Another statement in the air, If it so ridiculous product then every one was sleeping on it till all trials were done?

I hardly think it is IA's fault that Namica does not even have Commander's sight. More importantly, the other modifications seem more important, especially wiring and internal estate which would define it's future upgrade capability.

Was they were sleeping till now over it? And suddenly wake up that they need it. It is a deliberate ploy to delay the induction nothing else.

 

[p2prada]

The Namica is ancient. Bickerings will not change that. It is based on the BMP-II and is just a rust bucket. Namica and BMP-II are the same. It's not like DRDO developed Namica on their own.

13 Namicas have been ordered along with some 400 odd Nags by the army.

I am guessing both Helina and Nag are crucial for induction and thus they are waiting for Helina to finish tests before full scale induction.

 

[nitesh]

The Namica is ancient. Bickerings will not change that. It is based on the BMP-II and is just a rust bucket. Namica and BMP-II are the same. It's not like DRDO developed Namica on their own.

What is the basis of the claim "rust bucket"?

13 Namicas have been ordered along with some 400 odd Nags by the army.

I am guessing both Helina and Nag are crucial for induction and thus they are waiting for Helina to finish tests before full scale induction.

What exactly is the logic to hold back the induction because some other variant is getting developed?

 

[nitesh]

cross post:

HELINA missile’s two-way RF command-video data link realised - Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion