Multi Role Helicopters (MRH) to be inducted into Indian Navy

[SajeevJino]

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Regarding the ALTAS

India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has signed an INR3.06 billion (USD51million) deal with Germany's Atlas Elektronik for six low frequency Active Towed Array Sonar (ACTAS) systems to be fitted to Indian Navy (IN) warships.

The urgency of the requirement to safeguard its assets, continually emphasised by the IN since the late 1990s, has prompted the MoD to waive the 30% offset mandated for all military contracts worth over INR3 billion (USD50 million).

IN officials confirmed to IHS Jane's that the six ACTAS systems would equip three Talwar-class frigates and three Delhi-class destroyers,

So not for the New Destroyer

http://www.janes.com/article/46247/indian-mod-signs-up-for-actas-towed-array

 

[Rikbo88]

Most true anti-ship missiles use GPS/Inertial guidance to get to the ship then transition to a terminal guidance mode that uses an infrared sensor that looks for a heat plume to lock in, most notably the smoke stack. Missile is designed to hit the super structure above the water line. That is usually near the ship command center so the ship should be out of commission. India will likely integrate a new missile system on the S-70B rather than use the existing Penguin missile that is already qualified on the 70B. So, a hit on the bow would essentially be considered a miss.

 

[Prashant12]

Heard that India signed a deal with a foreign country ( don't remember it's name ), no idea about the DRDO TAS... might be comes late, or never come



Kolkatha has no PDMS, It's fully relies on the Barak 8 and the Four AK 630, But the Maitri timeline is not set



The Missile need to strike the Command Center of the Ship, then only the ship will sitting in ducks, If it hits in the bow, The ship manages to fire it's weapons, Since CIWS is protecting the CC, I think Brahmos always looks the Bow

Indian Navy has already ordered DRDO's ALTAS
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...orders-for-defence-systems/article7276911.ece

DRDO tastes yet another sucess: Navy Places Order for DRDO's ALTAS
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...cess-navy-places-order-for-drdos-altas.68284/

Barak 8 Missile has been installed on INS Kolkata.
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/barak-8-missile-to-be-test-fired-this-month-1202954

 

[SajeevJino]

Most true anti-ship missiles use GPS/Inertial guidance to get to the ship then transition to a terminal guidance mode that uses an infrared sensor that looks for a heat plume to lock in, most notably the smoke stack. Missile is designed to hit the super structure above the water line. That is usually near the ship command center so the ship should be out of commission. India will likely integrate a new missile system on the S-70B rather than use the existing Penguin missile that is already qualified on the 70B. So, a hit on the bow would essentially be considered a miss.

That's very good post to learn ... Thanks

 

[Rikbo88]

India contract still on hold from what I hear. Same reason, India refuses to recognize the cost escalation that occurs each year the contract is not signed. They (MOD) want the original price negotiated almost 4 years ago which is simply not realistic. Not gonna happen, Sikorsky will walk away, in my opinion. Plus, the current escalated price provided to India will expire this year, perhaps very soon. India is being very very foolish. I feel bad for the Indian Navy which desperately need these aircraft. Until The MOD understands how to play in the international market place, they will continue to fail. Very disappointing to me personally being an ardent supporter of the S-70B.

 

[Neil]

India contract still on hold from what I hear. Same reason, India refuses to recognize the cost escalation that occurs each year the contract is not signed. They (MOD) want the original price negotiated almost 4 years ago which is simply not realistic. Not gonna happen, Sikorsky will walk away, in my opinion. Plus, the current escalated price provided to India will expire this year, perhaps very soon. India is being very very foolish. I feel bad for the Indian Navy which desperately need these aircraft. Until The MOD understands how to play in the international market place, they will continue to fail. Very disappointing to me personally being an ardent supporter of the S-70B.

India has always bargained for weapons system purchased from abroad.. you have to understand India has a dominant position in the arms bazaar. The sheer size of the deal, follow on orders, other defence deals gives India an edge when she negotiates with the vendor. Anyways India will bargain hard for this deal no matter how unreasonable it sounds to the other side and get the best out of the deal but hoping it gets conclude soon.

 

[The enlightened]

India has always bargained for weapons system purchased from abroad.. you have to understand India has a dominant position in the arms bazaar. The sheer size of the deal, follow on orders, other defence deals gives India an edge when she negotiates with the vendor. Anyways India will bargain hard for this deal no matter how unreasonable it sounds to the other side and get the best out of the deal but hoping it gets conclude soon.

If it is not profitable for the other party, they are not going to sign it regardless of India's 'dominant position' or size of the deal - (16 helicopters).

 

[Immanuel]

Silly, this deal should have been done yesterday. It's clear the S-70B, Apaches and Chinooks out performed their rivals in fair trials. Get it over with, can't expect vendors to hold their bids for 4 years. The deal is 16 helos with option for 8 more. But the Na y also has a tender for 123 MRH as well for which the S-70B is also the ideal candidate. My suggestion, just go ahead and order 150 of these puppies under 'make in India' with a local assembly line and plenty of offsets and get it over with. Anyways Tata is already making cabins for S-92 in Andhra, just expand on that facility for local assembly. Damn, some deals are just so straight forward, don't understand why they take soo fucking long.

 

[Neil]

If it is not profitable for the other party, they are not going to sign it regardless of India's 'dominant position' or size of the deal - (16 helicopters).

i think @Immanuel answered the dominant position and size of the deal.. and its just hard bargain, no harm! but yes high time we conclude the deal.

 

[ezsasa]

India contract still on hold from what I hear. Same reason, India refuses to recognize the cost escalation that occurs each year the contract is not signed. They (MOD) want the original price negotiated almost 4 years ago which is simply not realistic. Not gonna happen, Sikorsky will walk away, in my opinion. Plus, the current escalated price provided to India will expire this year, perhaps very soon. India is being very very foolish. I feel bad for the Indian Navy which desperately need these aircraft. Until The MOD understands how to play in the international market place, they will continue to fail. Very disappointing to me personally being an ardent supporter of the S-70B.

If Americans really want to do real business with India, they have to study how Russians managed to do the same almost 40 years ago. Who ever is doing that study should try to make objective assessments and not let "Cold war politics" of that time cloud their judgement. Cold war politics may have been playing at the international level but at the ground level Russians put a lot of effort on people-people contact. They created a positive atmosphere among general citizenry at street level, once you have people on america's side government will follow.

Americans may view relationship with india as a by-product of defence deals, but indians want to view defence deals as a by-product of a strong relationship.

Having said all this i believe S-70B deal will have to wait till the new defence procurement policy is finalised. Same may the case with Apache and Chinook deals too.

Any idea what is the cost difference per Heli in these four years?

 

[Rikbo88]

Silly, this deal should have been done yesterday. It's clear the S-70B, Apaches and Chinooks out

Silly, this deal should have been done yesterday. It's clear the S-70B, Apaches and Chinooks out performed their rivals in fair trials. Get it over with, can't expect vendors to hold their bids for 4 years. The deal is 16 helos with option for 8 more. But the Na y also has a tender for 123 MRH as well for which the S-70B is also the ideal candidate. My suggestion, just go ahead and order 150 of these puppies under 'make in India' with a local assembly line and plenty of offsets and get it over with. Anyways Tata is already making cabins for S-92 in Andhra, just expand on that facility for local assembly. Damn, some deals are just so straight forward, don't understand why they take soo fucking long.

Wish that would happen. It would be the best way to spend their $$ and get what they need. Wishful thinking though, never happen.

 

[Rikbo88]

If Americans really want to do real business with India, they have to study how Russians managed to do the same almost 40 years ago. Who ever is doing that study should try to make objective assessments and not let "Cold war politics" of that time cloud their judgement. Cold war politics may have been playing at the international level but at the ground level Russians put a lot of effort on people-people contact. They created a positive atmosphere among general citizenry at street level, once you have people on america's side government will follow.

Americans may view relationship with india as a by-product of defence deals, but indians want to view defence deals as a by-product of a strong relationship.

Having said all this i believe S-70B deal will have to wait till the new defence procurement policy is finalised. Same may the case with Apache and Chinook deals too.

Any idea what is the cost difference per Heli in these four years?

No, not sure. Typical escalation is between 3-6 percent per year.

 

[ezsasa]

No, not sure. Typical escalation is between 3-6 percent per year.

Even at 6% cost escalation over four years, additional cost would be 191 million. Given the purchases we have seen in the past year that doesn't sound like a large amount, Cost may not be a factor.

http://armingindia.com/India-Pushes-Rafale-Talks-Forward-DAC-Clears-Mi-17-Choppers-01-09-2015.htm

Excerpt from the above article:-

Significantly, decisions on going ahead with the process for acquiring over 100 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) and six additional submarines under Project 75 (I) were put in abeyance till the implementation of the new Defense Procurement Procedure (DPP).

Looks like MRH discussion has not taken place in last DAC.

 

[Immanuel]

Wish that would happen. It would be the best way to spend their $$ and get what they need. Wishful thinking though, never happen.

Sadly indeed, this is where I wish I was the DM, none of this delay crap would exist.

 

[Immanuel]

If Americans really want to do real business with India, they have to study how Russians managed to do the same almost 40 years ago. Who ever is doing that study should try to make objective assessments and not let "Cold war politics" of that time cloud their judgement. Cold war politics may have been playing at the international level but at the ground level Russians put a lot of effort on people-people contact. They created a positive atmosphere among general citizenry at street level, once you have people on america's side government will follow.

Americans may view relationship with india as a by-product of defence deals, but indians want to view defence deals as a by-product of a strong relationship.

Having said all this i believe S-70B deal will have to wait till the new defence procurement policy is finalised. Same may the case with Apache and Chinook deals too.

Any idea what is the cost difference per Heli in these four years?

Strong relationship aside, Russia business good and well but the after sales support is often quite shoddy. Also, though they are quite our strategic friends, Russian foreign policy towards in India can be strange at times. The US relationship will increase with time, there is an old saying that better to take time making friends, the longer it takes the deeper & stronger the friendship will. The S-70B, Apaches and Chinooks are no brainer, if we continue waiting for a new policy to be implemented, costs will rise. The price hike usually is the same amount that could have been allocated for the additional options. This is all a waste of time and currency. Just order the damn things. Even at an average increase of 5% per year, we are looking at 20% additional cost for every deal.

 

[Zebra]

If Americans really want to do real business with India, they have to study how Russians managed to do the same almost 40 years ago. Who ever is doing that study should try to make objective assessments and not let "Cold war politics" of that time cloud their judgement. Cold war politics may have been playing at the international level but at the ground level Russians put a lot of effort on people-people contact. They created a positive atmosphere among general citizenry at street level, once you have people on america's side government will follow.

Americans may view relationship with india as a by-product of defence deals, but indians want to view defence deals as a by-product of a strong relationship.

Having said all this i believe S-70B deal will have to wait till the new defence procurement policy is finalised. Same may the case with Apache and Chinook deals too.

Any idea what is the cost difference per Heli in these four years?

Ha ha.....

------------------------------------

Anyway, my two cents.....

Turn your products into '50 % wali items'.
Sell junks with extremely over priced tags and add price of ToT in it and supply only kits to get assembled.
Get contract signed and supply with grate delay and in between demand for price rise.
On top of it, never talk anything about after sale services when you sell anything to India.
When Indians get stuck in middle of no where, then in the name of 'maintenance contract' never forget to squeeze every drop out of it.

Keep in mind I am not talking about weapons for those aircrafts. Other wise it will be all new Pandora's box.

:biggrin2:

 

[ezsasa]

Ha ha.....

------------------------------------

Anyway, my two cents.....

Turn your products into '50 % wali items'.
Sell junks with extremely over priced tags and add price of ToT in it and supply only kits to get assembled.
Get contract signed and supply with grate delay and in between demand for price rise.
On top of it, never talk anything about after sale services when you sell anything to India.
When Indians get stuck in middle of no where, then in the name of 'maintenance contract' never forget to squeeze every drop out of it.

Keep in mind I am not talking about weapons for those aircrafts. Other wise it will be all new Pandora's box.

:biggrin2:

True, your points can't be denied. This happened when you had incompetent babus and politicians dealing on strategic matters.

 

[Rikbo88]

[

Ha ha.....

------------------------------------

Anyway, my two cents.....

Turn your products into '50 % wali items'.
Sell junks with extremely over priced tags and add price of ToT in it and supply only kits to get assembled.
Get contract signed and supply with grate delay and in between demand for price rise.
On top of it, never talk anything about after sale services when you sell anything to India.
When Indians get stuck in middle of no where, then in the name of 'maintenance contract' never forget to squeeze every drop out of it.

Keep in mind I am not talking about weapons for those aircrafts. Other wise it will be all new Pandora's box.

:biggrin2:

I assume you are speaking about the Russians here. If true that is sad. That has never been true of sikorsky except for having some delays, usually always related to changes in the contract. Their after market support is excellent, plus, on most contracts, there is a 36 month warranty that requires Sikorsky to fix any defects or requirement deficiency found either in the aircraft, it's systems, or software.

 

[Rikbo88]

Hearing some things from my contacts that this contract is moving towards finalization. Seems the two sides are coming to terms. Keeping my fingers crossed!

 

[SajeevJino]

Hearing some things from my contacts that this contract is moving towards finalization. Seems the two sides are coming to terms. Keeping my fingers crossed!

aww ..Good to hear.. Is that still Sikorsky or Lockheed Martin