Multi Role Helicopters (MRH) to be inducted into Indian Navy

[Rikbo88]

NH industries is owned by Airbus (France, Germany), Agusta (Italy), Fokker (Netherlands) . With the exception of Italy and Netherlands, Russia has strong and good relations with France and Germany, and procures many weapons system from France like the Mistral class , which is being built and Paris has guaranteed Moscow that Ships will be delivered, with no effect of NATO Sanctions. If you dont think this is friendly, What is ?

Yes, there are ongoing programs, just looking at the current situation and the fact that the EU may initiate more sanctions. Also doesn't change the fact that the NH90 introduction has been anything but smooth.

 

[Rikbo88]

Dear, for the larger MRH contest of over 75 aircraft, LM is offering the MH-60 variants, should India just order more S-70 if this wins now for the larger deal or should it consider the MH-60 variants, from your experience, between the S-70 and MH-60 which ones are better?

The S-70B and MH-60R offer similar capabilities. But, as I have stated before the 70B is a better option for India due to cost, it's flexibility to be easily modified, and it's superior mission and avionics system design and usability. The follow on contract can easily be fulfilled by the 70B and it would then allow India to have one base aircraft for all those missions. The flight management and mission systems and basic aircraft would remain and thus training, maintenance, etc would all be at a lower cost than if a different aircraft is procured. I don't believe ordering two different models would be in India's best interest, nor is it required to achieve multiple mission capability. This tender will set the stage for the next tender and which ever candidate wins it will definitely be the likely choice for the follow on unless India has a very bad experience with the procurement program or actual aircraft.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Yes, there are ongoing programs, just looking at the current situation and the fact that the EU may initiate more sanctions. Also doesn't change the fact that the NH90 introduction has been anything but smooth.

Sir, I dont have much knowledge in this area. What I meant was that if NH90 is capable of delivering Indian requirements we should order that. Howsoever, if it is short in any one criteria required by IN when compared with S-70B, It should be rejected. What I meant was from foreign relations point of view. The ties are straining with Russia. They are already discussing Mil Mi -24 delivery to Pakistan. Which is a pretty serious issue for Indian Govt. Anyway, I was wondering why S-70 and NH-90? Arent there more multi role choppers?

 

[Rikbo88]

Sir, I dont have much knowledge in this area. What I meant was that if NH90 is capable of delivering Indian requirements we should order that. Howsoever, if it is short in any one criteria required by IN when compared with S-70B, It should be rejected. What I meant was from foreign relations point of view. The ties are straining with Russia. They are already discussing Mil Mi -24 delivery to Pakistan. Which is a pretty serious issue for Indian Govt. Anyway, I was wondering why S-70 and NH-90? Arent there more multi role choppers?

If both helos are fully qualified (and the IN has stated they are) then either is a candidate for selection. Then it comes down to cost, offset possibilities, the ability to have the aircraft serve more than one mission, and in-country manufacturing possibilities. In all the above mentioned factors, I believe the S-70B has the advantage. In addition, I think one has to factor in the poor record NH Industires has in fielding the NH-90 and the fact that the NFH-90 naval variant is also having problems with its initial deliveries. For the follow on contract, there are other aircraft (MH-60R, AW-101, others?) will be offered but for the initial MRH buy only these two have been down selected.

 

[Virendra]

Threads merged ...

 

[halloweene]

it's superior mission and avionics system design and usability

Develop please? NH90 certainly has issues, but its a generation leap as compared to S70B... Or am i wrong? Since the origin designed with extensive usage of composites, full FBW authority and certainly not "inferior" mission system.
Btw, not all NH90 have issues, depends on country of origin...

 

[Rikbo88]

Develop please? NH90 certainly has issues, but its a generation leap as compared to S70B... Or am i wrong? Since the origin designed with extensive usage of composites, full FBW authority and certainly not "inferior" mission system.
Btw, not all NH90 have issues, depends on country of origin...

Your points are well taken. Certainly some aspects (like the ones you mentioned) are a more modern design but certainly not the aircraft as a whole. New Weapons Management System (WMS) that has extensive capability for growth, new AFCS with new modes such as coupled dip-to-dip and coupled approach to hover make the 70B mission and avionics system as good as (in my opinion better) than anything out there. The S-70B already has the MK-54 mod 1 torpedo fully integrated which provides commonality (and a better weapon than Eurotorp's MU90) with India's P8 purchase which also uses the MK-54. The user interface I consider to be the best out there in terms of simplicity and user friendless. India will be getting the 6th generation of this mission and avionics system with new mission and flight management hardware being installed for this customer. System and software design will be mostly the same except for any new requirements that are driven by India requirements.
With the NFH model just entering service, I believe it will experience teething pains that the S-70B has already gone through. Not sure if the NH-90 utilizes a federated architecture but the 70B does and that is one reason it is easier to upgrade and add/replace existing systems. Some NH-90 delays have been attributed to customer unique equipment requests, something NH Industires seems to have not properly planned for. All in all, I don't consider the points you mention above to be key discriminators for determining aircraft selection.

 

[halloweene]

Thx for the answer, i'm no NH90 expert. I'll ask about federated architecture if you wish. Btw, another issue is pilots ear problems on some NH90. Curiously, only on some built in a certain country. But i cant write which. .

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

Anti-submarine choppers to be made in India soon

The Indian Navy's wait for the much-needed anti-submarine warfare helicopters to operate from its warships may just get longer.

The Indian Navy's wait for the much-needed anti-submarine warfare helicopters to operate from its warships may just get longer. The Narendra Modi government, determined to push domestic manufacturing of defence equipment, is likely to scrap a plan to acquire a squadron of naval multi-role helicopters (NMRH) from global vendors and issue fresh requests for proposals, stipulating that these machines must be made in India and the main vendor should be Indian.

The idea is to shift these purchases to a category where India buys the technology from overseas and the manufacturing of the equipment/machine is done here. Under this "Buy and Make in India" policy of the defence ministry, 80% of the cost of development and prototyping will be borne by the government, while the remainder is to be financed by the developing agency (DA).

The scrapping of the plan to procure 16 NMRH from global vendors, which was meant to be the first phase of a contract to acquire a fleet of 91 such helicopters at a cost of $3 billion, would likely be announced after the next meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) at the end of this month, official sources told FE.

The NMRH fleet will be equipped with anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities and customised for amphibious assaults and commando operations. The Modi government's decision is expected to generate business worth over
R20,0000 crore for the local industry, sources said.

The DAC, chaired by defence minister Arun Jaitley on July 19, had deferred the decision on the MRH helicopter project while clearing other military procurement proposals. The two contenders in the fray for the contract are the European NH-90 helicopter and the American Sikorsky-70B. "The navy had sought the way forward in the NMRH project, which also included deviations being sought by the two companies in their offsets proposals, but the DAC has kept the entire matter pending for now," said a source.

The Indian Navy issued the request for information (RFI) for 16 NMRH in July 2011. This tender has been delayed as the defence ministry asked both finalists to extend the validity of their bids by another six months in July 2013.
Since then nothing moved as the government of the day had put everything on hold. As far as the navy is concerned, both contenders have met naval staff qualitative requirements for a multi-role chopper with its primary missions consisting of ASW and anti-surface warfare and secondary roles such as search and rescue, transport, casualty evacuation etc.

Though the navy is on track to induct four to five warships every year over the next decade, it is fast running out of helicopters meant to detect and kill enemy submarines. It just has 11 Kamov-28 and 17 Sea King ASW helicopters to defend its existing fleet of over 130 warships. While the Sea Kings are over 20 years old, the Kamov-28s are long overdue for a mid-life upgrade.

Anti-submarine choppers to be made in India soon - Financial Express

 

[Rikbo88]

OK, now I am really confused. Didn't the MOD just announce they have cleared the way for the opening of the MRH bids? Last I heard the vendors were preparing to go in country to witness the bid opening and hear the results.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

OK, now I am really confused. Didn't the MOD just announce they have cleared the way for the opening of the MRH bids? Last I heard the vendors were preparing to go in country to witness the bid opening and hear the results.

this is India. Everything here is confusing.
Earlier tender stated that the helicopters will be built abroad.
However, as PM Narendra Modi has started his flagship 'Make in India' campaign, he wants to to literally build everything in India. The official opening of campaign started today. You can google it to know more about it.

 

[hitesh]

India eyes $1 billion Sikorsky helicopter deal, other US arms

PM Modi's US Visit: India eyes $1 billion Sikorsky helicopter deal, other US arms - The Economic Times


WASHINGTON: India is expected to choose Sikorsky Aircraft's S-70B Sea Hawk helicopters at a 16-aircraft tender worth over $1 billion, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The decision could come during a high-profile visit to the United States by Prime Minister Narendra Modi that starts on Friday.

The Sikorsky deal would be one of several large US arms purchases by India that are nearing completion, including over $2.5 billion in orders for Boeing Co's AH-64D Apa ..

 

[p2prada]

OK, now I am really confused. Didn't the MOD just announce they have cleared the way for the opening of the MRH bids? Last I heard the vendors were preparing to go in country to witness the bid opening and hear the results.

What MoD has announced is the right news. Anything else you see in the media you can ignore. Defense journalism in India is extremely bad.

You will have to use your own judgement to determine whether an Indian article is reliable or not. It is not so different with western media about Chinese and Russian development, they tend to be completely wrong or just outdated by many years.

Official sources are the best.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

What MoD has announced is the right news. Anything else you see in the media you can ignore. Defense journalism in India is extremely bad.

You will have to use your own judgement to determine whether an Indian article is reliable or not. It is not so different with western media about Chinese and Russian development, they tend to be completely wrong or just outdated by many years.

Official sources are the best.

so what you mean to say that news going around which says Scrapping of present tender to make helis in India is rumour?

 

[p2prada]

so what you mean to say that news going around which says Scrapping of present tender to make helis in India is rumour?

MoD announced that the bids will be opened.

There will be a new tender out for 123 helicopters which will be made in India. Or 91. Whichever number is deemed worthy.

Also note that official word is the final word.

 

[AshutoshNSingh]

Develop please? NH90 certainly has issues, but its a generation leap as compared to S70B... Or am i wrong? Since the origin designed with extensive usage of composites, full FBW authority and certainly not "inferior" mission system.
Btw, not all NH90 have issues, depends on country of origin...

yes nh90 is indeed superior but however we preferred S70B since it emerged as the L1 just as Rafale in MMRCA. And now govt policy has also bcum to avoid products of firms in which Finmeccanica is a stakeholder, and NHI is one.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

didnt anyone really notice that an Indian Navy thread is in Air Force section?

 

[Zebra]

yes nh90 is indeed superior but however we preferred S70B since it emerged as the L1 just as Rafale in MMRCA. And now govt policy has also bcum to avoid products of firms in which Finmeccanica is a stakeholder, and NHI is one.

Only one thing, NH90 has much better range.

On the other hand to maintain NH90 is a headache and to get parts at right time is pain in butt.

Some time that waiting period is nearly one year just to get parts.

Where as for S-70B it is much much easy.

If something gone wrong and you are not happy with manufacturer's customer support then there are one separate company to get after market support, the best part here is that company is also a JV of Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin.
MHSCo | Maritime Helicopter Support Company

In our case, there won't be any issues in customer support and parts bcz we are getting these choppers from Tata-Sikorsky anyway.

But still if every thing gone wrong then there are at least one more option left for parts and support, it is the MHSCo. And they work world wide.

We all know how S-70B perform. Clearly it is a much better platform and a grate product.

Its a time proven that S-70B works much much better than any other naval multi role helicopter.

Its range is also not that bad either.

 

[Rikbo88]

India eyes $1 billion Sikorsky helicopter deal, other US arms

PM Modi's US Visit: India eyes $1 billion Sikorsky helicopter deal, other US arms - The Economic Times

WASHINGTON: India is expected to choose Sikorsky Aircraft's S-70B Sea Hawk helicopters at a 16-aircraft tender worth over $1 billion, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The decision could come during a high-profile visit to the United States by Prime Minister Narendra Modi that starts on Friday.

The Sikorsky deal would be one of several large US arms purchases by India that are nearing completion, including over $2.5 billion in orders for Boeing Co's AH-64D Apa ..

This would be awesome if it comes to pass! Looking forward to hearing the official announcement. Very interested in hearing what the whole deal would entail.

 

[Rikbo88]

Only one thing, NH90 has much better range.

On the other hand to maintain NH90 is a headache and to get parts at right time is pain in butt.

Some time that waiting period is nearly one year just to get parts.

Where as for S-70B it is much much easy.

If something gone wrong and you are not happy with manufacturer's customer support then there are one separate company to get after market support, the best part here is that company is also a JV of Sikorsky and Lockheed Martin.
MHSCo | Maritime Helicopter Support Company

In our case, there won't be any issues in customer support and parts bcz we are getting these choppers from Tata-Sikorsky anyway.

But still if every thing gone wrong then there are at least one more option left for parts and support, it is the MHSCo. And they work world wide.

We all know how S-70B perform. Clearly it is a much better platform and a grate product.

Its a time proven that S-70B works much much better than any other naval multi role helicopter.

Its range is also not that bad either.

I believe the Maritime Helicopter Support organization you reference is for the MH-60R and MH-60S aircraft for which LM is the aircraft integrator. For the S-70B Sikorsky is the aircraft manufacturer and systems integrator and fully supports the product by itself. LM has nothing to do with the 70B. Regardless, Sikorsky has and will continue to offer excellent support for this aircraft. Sikorsky has partnered with Rockwell Collins who makes the Flight Management System (FMS) which Sikorsky has integrated with its internally designed Mission Management System (MMS). The Multifunction Displays (MFDs) are made by Rockwell Collins and contain the primary flight displays and other aircraft related status information as well as the Sikorsky designed mission management software that integrates the entire mission system and flight management system with the various subsystems on the aircraft. So, Sikorsky is the integrator as well as the manufacturer of the aircraft and therefore has expertise in all aspects of the aircraft and thus is fully capable of offering any support needed.