Much of India's Defence R&D is in effect an expensive re-inventing of the Wheel

[roma]

Following on from my earlier post that it took 30 years to get a trainer aircraft into operation, reference; http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/mi...-30-years-design-aircraft-but-hope-still.html

it still leaves unanswered the fact that modifying , copying or as China has often been accused of , Pirating existing designs available on the market, is a more practical way, quicker , less costly , functions and under no obligations to others, and is a better way than trying to design from scratch and taking too long and finally producing something which is by that time outdated or even available on the market cheaper, not to mention in a sense producing something which had by then already existed or we may say , in effect it was all an unnecessary exercise in re-inventing the wheel.

can India really afford to play games in the laborotories when there are pressing defence needs and modification of existing foreign products would have been a better , quicker , less costly option ?

in terms of producing DEFENCE EQUIPMENT from basic INDIGENOUS research and development , what indeed have been the results ??

most grateful if anyone could tell us , please ?

 

[Yusuf]

When you font know how to make the wheel you have to reinvent it. Remember we have lived in a technology denial regime for decades.

 

[roma]

mr yusuf ..... india may have been denied US technology for 34 years of nuclear sanctions but defence equipment was in fact available from the then soviet bloc ...in fact in the 1980's US reports placed indian air force strength as being SUPERIOR to china's .....mrs G did what was necessary by purchasing and didnt use "the almighty DENIAL " as an excuse the be denied .....i think it is about time the rest of india ( not everyone ,please ) got off using that infamous "denial" as an excuse, dont you think ?

 

[badguy2000]

Following on from my earlier post that it took 30 years to get a trainer aircraft into operation, reference; http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/mi...-30-years-design-aircraft-but-hope-still.html

it still leaves unanswered the fact that modifying , copying or as China has often been accused of , Pirating existing designs available on the market, is a more practical way, quicker , less costly , functions and under no obligations to others, and is a better way than trying to design from scratch and taking too long and finally producing something which is by that time outdated or even available on the market cheaper, not to mention in a sense producing something which had by then already existed or we may say , in effect it was all an unnecessary exercise in re-inventing the wheel.

can India really afford to play games in the laborotories when there are pressing defence needs and modification of existing foreign products would have been a better , quicker , less costly option ?

in terms of producing DEFENCE EQUIPMENT from basic INDIGENOUS research and development , what indeed have been the results ??

most grateful if anyone could tell us , please ?

it still leaves unanswered the fact that modifying , copying or as China has often been accused of , Pirating existing designs available on the market, is a more practical way, quicker , less costly , functions and under no obligations to others, and is a better way than trying to design from scratch and taking too long and finally producing something which is by that time outdated or even available on the market cheaper, not to mention in a sense producing something which had by then already existed or we may say , in effect it was all an unnecessary exercise in re-inventing the wheel.

how naive the writer is!

he think that china's RE is as easy as a piece of cake...

 

[roma]

make your point without making personal attacks ..... part of the rules of this forum ?

 

[SATISH]

Reinventing the wheel...we never reinvented anything. We just formed a design base for everything. Well when Thomas Alva Edison was asked about his 10001 times failure with the first light bulb prototype You know what the answer was "Now we know 1001 ways the light bulb dosent work' This was his answer. The knowledge gained out of all those failures leads to a stable design base and these helped us in furthering the knowledge and the research basis. We wouldnt be seeing organizations like DRDO, DARE, etc if we hadnt gone on with research. Research forms the basis of a stable industrial base and we can survive even with tech denials from other countries.

 

[roma]

mr satish thanks for your reply ....but the qurestion still remains unanswered ;viz ,

"what defence products has all that research produced ?"

... am just requesting some info about that .

 

[Yusuf]

mr yusuf ..... india may have been denied US technology for 34 years of nuclear sanctions but defence equipment was in fact available from the then soviet bloc ...in fact in the 1980's US reports placed indian air force strength as being SUPERIOR to china's .....mrs G did what was necessary by purchasing and didnt use "the almighty DENIAL " as an excuse the be denied .....i think it is about time the rest of india ( not everyone ,please ) got off using that infamous "denial" as an excuse, dont you think ?

We want to get out of our dependence on foreign purchase. People did not even collaborate with us back then. We need a powerful military industry in the country as we cannot be called powerful without it.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Indian defense sector for decades was dependant on the Russians and the cold war mentality that came with it, it is only in about the last 10 years that India has pursued a more independent procurement policy.The new policy has 2 key points for defense deals transfer of technology and joint production. Most nations would not have this kind of luxury to demand these two points, but with India placing Huge weapons deals the supplier many times cannot deliver the whole order quickly so joint production is also a relief fo the supplier. From the joint production a new development has occured indigenous development and innovation;the best recent example i will use of this is the Brahmos missile. Brahmos missile was originally the Yakhont Russian anti ship missile, India started a joint production program with Russians and they upgraded it and made it deadlier and added features that did not exist on the Yakhont, the end result was a cruise missile that was 3 times faster than the tomahawk and unstoppable, that was the joint production story of the Brahmos now the indigenous and innovation part of the Brahmos missile is the Brahmos 2 which will be a completely indigenous Indian produced missile the missile be a hypersonic missile flying at MACH 6 and much longer range with no MCTR restriction of the original brahmos. Another good example of this kind of joint development and innovation is in our BMD program with Israelis. People can criticize the Indian defense procurement process and how it is slow and unproductive they give example of the LCA but then there is the Sukhoi's which will be completely manufactured in India. Another of Gorshokov and Akula but the you have the indigenous sub Airhant. There is the Arjun which has become an ongoing saga but look at how many t-90's India has. I will say for the most part India weapons procurement is not perfect but it has come a long way very fast and it has matured from simply being a buyer and seller procurement relationship to a developer and manufacturer and potentially an exporter. There will always be roadblocks and bureacrary but they have not been major obstacles to national security.

 

[SATISH]

mr satish thanks for your reply ....but the qurestion still remains unanswered ;viz ,

"what defence products has all that research produced ?"

... am just requesting some info about that .

There are a lot of products and Sub products that are made. Well no corporate can finance for R&D like the Government itself and the Government finances defence research the most. Remember one thing...anything made first is for killing people then only other uses were found. I am a dentist and there is a simple example the Light Cured Composite used in dentistry was a direct Spin Off from the LCA airframe production. The rates went down drastically and now anyone can afford it. Things like these might sound small but has huge value. Remember the first recorded usage of steel in history is still in swords.

 

[Payeng]

The quicker, less costlier is not always the best option, we are in the quest of self sufficiency in defence procurement and I believe self sufficiency come within, no nation would help us gaining that, as it is said slow and steady wins the race, The experience gained from the scratches may help us create more expert workforce to design future products than just copycat rules.

Although it can be said that getting what is available in the market should be accepted, but is it really been delivered in the true sense? No body will sell their trade secrets, so we should design our own, it may take some time but that time worth's

Again pirating doesn't comes into India's case, sorry we don't practice piracy, piracy is done through an institution that don't exist in India's case, India is a open society.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

India is currently building the Industrial defense base, with the base completed years from now I feel atleast 80% of India's defense needs will be met indigenously.

 

[roma]

great to know that 80% will be indigenous

 

[Payeng]

in terms of producing DEFENCE EQUIPMENT from basic INDIGENOUS research and development , what indeed have been the results ??

The Major products would be accompanied by India's own needs and wants with no string attached.

A self sufficiency in Defence.

When achieved, a global influence in India's foreign policy.

 

[roma]

lethal, thanks for the detail in your reply ... appreciate the time taken .... cheers

 

[badguy2000]

fix you base, then talk about upper bulldings.

the case is that the base of India defence industry ,like the tech of material and machining , is very backward and weak.

however, only few Indian people are ready to face it . And Indian politicians dare not tell it to indian people ,because they are afraid to lose votes.

indian politican always know that to raise a splendid moving plan can always attract more votes to silently hard fix the base of defence industry ,however unpractical the plan is .

So, indian politicans always tend to raise one more and more plans like LCA,MRCA,MCA....but nobody of them care how to fix the base like tech of material and machiningl.

 

[Daredevil]

fix you base, then talk about upper bulldings.

the case is that the base of India defence industry ,like the tech of material and machining , is very backward and weak.

however, only few Indian people are ready to face it . And Indian politicians dare not tell it to indian people ,because they are afraid to lose votes.

indian politican always know that to raise a splendid moving plan can always attract more votes to silently hard fix the base of defence industry ,however unpractical the plan is .

So, indian politicans always tend to raise one more and more plans like LCA,MRCA,MCA....but nobody of them care how to fix the base like tech of material and machiningl.

We are laying the strong foundations for the defense and technological base e and that is why it is taking more time, unlike china which is cutting the corners (read pirating) to achieve technologically superior things without any strong base. One day it will come down like a pack of cards.

 

[badguy2000]

We are laying the strong foundations for the defense and technological base e and that is why it is taking more time, unlike china which is cutting the corners (read pirating) to achieve technologically superior things without any strong base. One day it will come down like a pack of cards.

no pissing game.

your focus-chasing politicans always like raising one more and more "gread shipbuilding projects..but non of them care about the rusty stone-aged facilities of indian shipyards.

they just seem not to know that modern warships are not made by their mouth,but by the shipyard.

you babus politicans care more votes and their wallets than the future of you country!

 

[Daredevil]

no pissing game.

your focus-chasing politicans always like raising one more and more "gread shipbuilding projects..but non of them care about the rusty stone-aged facilities of indian shipyards.

they just seem not to know that modern warships are not made by their mouth,but by the shipyard.

you babus politicans care more votes and their wallets than the future of you country!

We care about everything - votes, wallets and shipyards as well . There are already new ship yards constructed and new ships are being constructed including future ATVs. or do you not consider ATV a modern warship?

 

[Payeng]

no pissing game.

your focus-chasing politicans always like raising one more and more "gread shipbuilding projects..but non of them care about the rusty stone-aged facilities of indian shipyards.

they just seem not to know that modern warships are not made by their mouth,but by the shipyard.

you babus politicans care more votes and their wallets than the future of you country!

Something to relish your thirst link