MRCA News & Discussions (V)

[slenke]

Link to Previous thread : http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=12796&page=100

By Gripen Test Pilot Major Mikael Olsson
Executive Officer of the Swedish Gripen, Operational Test and Evaluation Unit ,Swedish Air Force

While others are talking about situation awareness, the Gripen IN goes beyond. Situation awareness (SA) involves being aware of what is happening around you to understand how information, events, and your own actions will impact your goals and objectives, both now and in the near future. Lacking SA or having inadequate SA in an air combat situation normally ends with a disaster.


While situation awareness is obviously vital for Net Centric Warfare and execution of combat missions, it is not the real key to success in the information-intensive battlespace of the 21st Century.It is only an enabler.

We agree with the fact that as a fighter pilot you need situation awareness to be able to achieve information superiority. However we do not agree that this is enough. Simple awareness is not enough. Saab's Research & Development, which includes close relationship with operations, shows the need to be able to use superior knowledge of the battle space to make decisions and take actions that allow domination of the battle space.


http://www.gripenindia.com/search?updated-max=2010-09-12T23:29:00+05:30&max-results=15

Never seen that picture before!

A new cockpit layout perhaps?

 

[slenke]

Any information about the IRST that NG might have?
Also do we know any good specs about the radar that's coming up?

The above information is probably the most important if Gripen IN wants the cake.

The IRST would be the Selex Skyward-G. I know SAAB tried out their own a few years ago, don't know what happened to it though.

About the radar, not much is known exept a few SAR-pictures taken with it and that it'll have 1000 T/R modules and swashplate fixing. Selex is scheduled to deliver the first pre-production model later this year.

Undoubtedly you've seen this presentation made att the Farnborough air show last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shikRvsqTgU

 

[p2prada]

The IRST would be the Selex Skyward-G. I know SAAB tried out their own a few years ago, don't know what happened to it though.

Is it meant for air to air identification as well?

Selex is scheduled to deliver the first pre-production model later this year.

Good to know. So, are there any dates available for first flight of NG? Not Demo.

 

[slenke]

Is it meant for air to air identification as well?

Never thought about that, I don't know actually. I'll ask around.
Edit: Selex also makes the PIRATE for EFT which have that ability, so I guess that ability could also be in the Skyward-G.

Good to know. So, are there any dates available for first flight of NG? Not Demo.

That I think depends on Brazil and India. I know that Sweden will get the NG straight away if India or Brazil go for the Gripen. But I also know that if they don't, the minister of defence have said we'll take it more slowly, maybe work on it a little more and get the plane later this decade. Sweden just isn't in the same situation as India I guess, more peaceful neighbours. But since Russia is boosting it's defence, they might speed up the process here as well.

The Parliament was supposed to make a formal decision at the end of 2010, but since Brazil delayed it's decision they'll make it in Mars or April instead.

 

[chex3009]

MUST READ

A very long but satisfying read regarding India's MMRCA:

By Ashley J. Tellis
For Carnegie Endowment for International peace

http://carnegieendowment.org/files/dogfight.pdf

Latest Costs of Jets in MMRCA according to the above source:

MiG-35 $45 million

Gripen NG $82.2 million

Rafale $85.4 million

Typhoon $123.1 million

F-16IN $60 million

F/A-18E/F $60.3 million

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Gripen NG $82.2 million

Rafale $85.4 million

Almost same..

Rafale.. 1!

 

[chex3009]

Almost same..

Rafale.. 1!

Kunal sir, after reading the document carefully it now seems more than 75% chances for Super Hornet, due to

- Political leverage
- Most Advanced AESA
- Low cost (comparatively)
- Modest Platform (Proven)

But only problem is:

- ToT

 

[slenke]

Almost same..

Rafale.. 1!

The Gripen figures are from 2008. I don't know what the price would be today.. with a weak dollar and pound I'm guessing lower.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Kunal sir, after reading the document carefully it now seems more than 75% chances for Super Hornet, due to

- Political leverage
- Most Advanced AESA
- Low cost (comparatively)
- Modest Platform (Proven)

But only problem is:

- ToT

If you look at recent lifting of bans for some of our research institutes its sign of time to come. I am sure there will be few technological transfers inc coming days . I am sure USA will allow Israelis to transfer AESA as well and that will be part of TOT from USA as its their money behind it .

 

[JayATL]

New combat aircraft will turn India into global giant: US expert

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...o-global-giant-expert/articleshow/7374397.cms


India's acquisition of 126 new medium multi-role combat aircraft will play an essential role in India's transformation from a regional power to a global giant , according to a South Asia expert.

Eight countries and six companies eagerly await the Indian Air Force's selection of a new medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The winner of the competition for the $10 billion deal will also gain a toehold in a lucrative market, writes Ashley J. Tellis, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington think tank, in a paper.

Analysing the technical and political factors India must consider in awarding the contract, Tellis argues that India needs to decide quickly, avoid splitting the purchase between competitors, and buy the "best" aircraft to help India prepare for future security competition in Southern Asia.

Challenges to India's national security are increasingly complex, he says while noting, "India's air force levels have reached an all-time low due to delays in its defence procurement process, accidents, and retirements of older aircraft. Meanwhile, China and Pakistan are aggressively modernising their forces."

European aircraft are technically superb, but US entrants are formidable "best buys", writes Tellis, who was intimately involved in the negotiations associated with the US-India civil nuclear agreement as an advisor in the Bush administration.

"Unfortunately, the advantages in the US fighters are not sufficiently recognised, so if Washington wants an American aircraft to win the game, it must offer generous terms on the transfer of technology, assure India access to fifth-generation US combat aircraft, and support India's strategic ambitions."

India also needs to consider its future force structure in making its decision, states Tellis, suggesting, "With combat aviation technology rapidly evolving, the Indian government should select the least expensive, most mature, combat-proven fourth-generation fighter as a bridge to procuring more advanced stealth aircraft in the future."

"In making its decision, India's government must keep the India air force's interests consistently front and centre to ensure that its ultimate choice of aircraft is the best one for the service."

"This will not only help India to strengthen its combat capabilities in the coming years, but position it as a rising global power worthy of respect far into the future," he says.

 

[JayATL]

there is 50 pages to screen . I was wondering is there a simple website which puts each of the contenders in side by side comparison chart. I'm a layman when it comes to all these aircrafts . why is a typhoon almost twice as expensive as a F18 E/F? and if 5th gen is the way to go in future. why are people advocating spending so much more on a typhoon?

 

[chex3009]

there is 50 pages to screen . I was wondering is there a simple website which puts each of the contenders in side by side comparison chart. I'm a layman when it comes to all these aircrafts . why is a typhoon almost twice as expensive as a F18 E/F? and if 5th gen is the way to go in future. why are people advocating spending so much more on a typhoon?

Just scroll through the document once, and you will get all the necessary comparisons, future figures of the IAF, and different scenarios of MMRCA in tabular form.

 

[p2prada]

Just scroll through the document once, and you will get all the necessary comparisons, future figures of the IAF, and different scenarios of MMRCA in tabular form.

I am on page 95 already. It's Ok. There are some inconsistencies though, especially with Mig-35.

 

[chex3009]

I am on page 95 already. It's Ok. There are some inconsistencies though, especially with Mig-35.

Might be the case that they are not getting enough info regarding the MiG-35 as it is not yet fully developed, but i was surprised to see the cost of Gripen NG, quite a huge amount.

And by considering the advantages and disadvantages sorted by the author, Super Hornets stand a best chance with only negative point of ToT and prone to sanctions.

 

[p2prada]

Might be the case that they are not getting enough info regarding the MiG-35 as it is not yet fully developed, but i was surprised to see the cost of Gripen NG, quite a huge amount.

And by considering the advantages and disadvantages sorted by the author, Super Hornets stand a best chance with only negative point of ToT and prone to sanctions.

He has quoted regular newspaper articles for costs. For one, He says the USAF purchased SH for the price he quoted. It's obvious we won't be getting the same specs at the same costs. Our specs will obviously be lower and the costs higher.

The Gripen NG costs are not completely 100% because Gripen still isn't flying. But in the long run the Gripen's costs will be lower.

EF is way too expensive for obvious reasons. But Rafale is a better choice for more bang for the buck as well as near sanction proof deliveries.

 

[slenke]

He has quoted regular newspaper articles for costs. For one, He says the USAF purchased SH for the price he quoted. It's obvious we won't be getting the same specs at the same costs. Our specs will obviously be lower and the costs higher.

The Gripen NG costs are not completely 100% because Gripen still isn't flying. But in the long run the Gripen's costs will be lower.

EF is way too expensive for obvious reasons. But Rafale is a better choice for more bang for the buck as well as near sanction proof deliveries.

Also, that article used the Norwegian deal for his cost calculations. The Gripen for Norway had different components from the one proposed for India.

 

[p2prada]

Also, that article used the Norwegian deal for his cost calculations. The Gripen for Norway had different components from the one proposed for India.

No. The Gripen IN is supposed to be one of the more advanced versions of Gripen. Saab has accused Norway of falsifying the price tag in favor of the JSF in the report they released after the Norwegian bid failed. There was also a question of underhanded play, but that was not talked about by the Saab CEO.
http://www.thelocal.se/16252/20081210/

Wikileaks also revealed the Americans were pulling strings to bring Norway onto their side by denying Saab the Raytheon AESA components. This leak proved the analysts were right and that price wasn't the only criteria for rejection. the American played the same trick with Israel's El/M 2052.
http://www.thelocal.se/30584/20101203/

The F-35 is a more advanced and capable aircraft than the Gripen NG and the Norwegians did have a more genuine reason to replace their 4th gen platform with a 5th gen platform rather a 4.5th gen platform. But F-35 and Gripen are not related in the Indian MRCA deal. After GE won the LCA engine bid, I see very little problems for Gripen in India. Considering the RM-12 engine may get a lease of life in powering the Gripen NG in the future once the Indian money starts pouring in there may still be hope for removing the American shackles. The Swedish-Italian AESA adds to the mix too.

I am still hoping Rafale would win. But I am willing to accommodate EF as well as Gripen over the Russian and American aircraft.

 

[gogbot]

I read through most of the pdf , i would like to know what you guys thought of the proposed force tables.
they have certainly changed my views on which aircraft i see as the best selection as of now.

but i did not quite agree with the final table showing optimal force level of 60 squadrons.

So here is my altered one

*improved PAk-FA is single seat version that IAF is expected to buy in the intern till the FGFA , These will most likely be upgraded to FGFA standard, Same way Su-30MK was upgraded to MKI standard.

*Tejas MK-III in my view is Tejas upgraded with AMCA tech, Primarily focusing on Improvements in avionics, EW suit , Radar and Improved Kaveri Engines.

 

[p2prada]

In your table only Air Superiority role is concrete and work is being carried out. MKI staying post 2030 is difficult considering early versions will start being phased out. I am also speculating PAKFA will be replaced by FGFA in the medium term.

Any of the MRCA candidates are good. So, 200 look good down the line.

Tejas Mk3 is just a Tejas Mk2 MLU.

AMCA is set to replace Jags and Mig-27s. So, if everything goes according to plan then AMCA will see its day.

Let's not discount the possibility of any stealthy UCAVs we may develop from the offset clause or on our own. We are looking at 2030 after all.

 

[rakesh]

between Refale & Eurofighter which is best in term of price & life cycle cost?