MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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icecoolben

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MMRCA Buzz



The latest Buzz on MMRCA is that a Top secret file related to the offset clause has gone missing but later on was found on a road in Delhi. Both IAF and MoD has ordered an inquiry on it. Its unlikely to make any difference as the bidders are not allowed to make any further changes to their bid. Never the less it does affects India image and hurts it credibility of running a fair tender competition.

Secondly, it seems like the IAF is opting for a "Completed" platforms for the MMRCA. According to IAF, it would prefer platforms who's development process is competed rather than aircrafts like MiG-35, Gripen NG and F-16IN which are being tweaked to meet IAF's demands. Under-development fighters are expected to face teething issues which could delay their induction which IAF can't afford. So it seems that the cut-off list is up(unofficial) with EF-2000 Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18SH making it in.

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/2010/12/mmrca-buzz.html
IAF is playing it completely safe, aren't they?

Eurofighter AESA radar is pushed to 2015, so not a complete platform, Eurofighter retards to impress IAF with adequate stand off weapons and close air support capability and thus is failed by its lack of strike capbility as in the singapore competition, the others have a chance to edge it out.

But Rafale and Super Hornet don't have engine power that gives them T/W ratio of 1+ required for Indian hot and humid conditions, inducting them thus would be a grave injustice to LCA Tejas mk-1.

what to do?

MOD,

Cancel MMRCA issue new tender to replace Mig-27 and Jaguar because AMCA is late!

IAF chief "Hurrah Lets import F-35 through FMS"

And Everybody lived happily ever after


..=i+..+u=

_=..i2-=

:emot15::emot15::emot15:
 

chex3009

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Quicker Induction of jets is Key in MMRCA Tender: IAF Official

A high ranked serving officer in Indian air force have told (idrw.org), IAF is looking at quicker induction of the jets into air force, and without any further delays once the winner of the MMRCA Tender competition is out by Mid of next year .

IAF has made a detail study of all the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Production capability of this jets and also how fast they can get their government approval for Transfer of Core Technology to India, and also ground tools and other spare supplies of the jet to HAL, so that local production of the 108 jets can start in India, first 18 aircraft will be directly sourced from the manufacturer.

Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF fleet.

IAF is already retiring more jets then inducting them and Mig-23 fleet has been already been retired and MMRCA aircraft will fill the gap of this jets, IAF will also be retiring Half of Mig-27 fleet by 2015, so this is a major concern for IAF, since this will also be the period where jets like Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 will be going through major Mid-life up gradation and pulling of this jets for up gradation will leave further void in IAF's operational capability.

Key will be faster induction of MMRCA jets, and also take care that Sukhoi Su 30 MKI and Tejas MK-1 induction have smooth induction into IAF.

http://idrw.org/?p=2091
 

Tshering22

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^^^ केवल बातें ही करते रहोगे कि कुछ सच में भी करोगे, वायु सेना? हम यहाँ चर्चे कर कर के थक गए और तुम्हारे यहाँ एक भी नया विमान नहीं आया । :emot203:
 

Tshering22

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IAF is playing it completely safe, aren't they?

Eurofighter AESA radar is pushed to 2015, so not a complete platform, Eurofighter retards to impress IAF with adequate stand off weapons and close air support capability and thus is failed by its lack of strike capbility as in the singapore competition, the others have a chance to edge it out.

But Rafale and Super Hornet don't have engine power that gives them T/W ratio of 1+ required for Indian hot and humid conditions, inducting them thus would be a grave injustice to LCA Tejas mk-1.

what to do?

MOD,

Cancel MMRCA issue new tender to replace Mig-27 and Jaguar because AMCA is late!

IAF chief "Hurrah Lets import F-35 through FMS"

And Everybody lived happily ever after


..=i+..+u=

_=..i2-=

:emot15::emot15::emot15:
The Rafale might offer something with an upgraded engine. Snecma has a lot of propulsion experience and tweaking the thrust a little bit more shouldn't be a problem for them. If they cannot do this, I am beginning to get a feeling that Gripen NG might make it when we take cost into considerations. As I said in the other thread, the NG can carry much more stuff, can supercruise at Mach 1.1 and has AESA radar while being single engine and having managed to "just enter" the medium class with the newer bigger design according to SAAB's claim.

It is the most effective cost effective solution in such a case since F-16s and MiG-35 are a no go. And BTW Typhoon tranche 3 is out already which is multirole in true sense. But the price tag is just too high even when seen from operations cost POV. Wonder if IAF is in a position to afford an all twin-engined air force. Gripen NG's selection might ease the cost scale a bit, giving IAF pilots more hours to clock. We have a fine record now @ 300 hours/year/pilot (estimated). Let is not reduce this just because of a stupid indecision.

200 Tejas
200 NGs
272 MKIs
250 FGFA/PAKFAs
100 AMCAs

Even if we take NG, then also we will be twin-engine-heavy air force which will put a strain on IAF during tight times. Typhoon and Rafale are ripoffs even though they offer good tech. Wonder why European stuff costs so much. And American stuff is plagued with sanctions and political arm-twisting.

After reading so many MRCA threads, I am beginning to see some hope in Gripen NG new version. :p
 

Crusader53

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The Rafale might offer something with an upgraded engine. Snecma has a lot of propulsion experience and tweaking the thrust a little bit more shouldn't be a problem for them. If they cannot do this, I am beginning to get a feeling that Gripen NG might make it when we take cost into considerations. As I said in the other thread, the NG can carry much more stuff, can supercruise at Mach 1.1 and has AESA radar while being single engine and having managed to "just enter" the medium class with the newer bigger design according to SAAB's claim.

It is the most effective cost effective solution in such a case since F-16s and MiG-35 are a no go. And BTW Typhoon tranche 3 is out already which is multirole in true sense. But the price tag is just too high even when seen from operations cost POV. Wonder if IAF is in a position to afford an all twin-engined air force. Gripen NG's selection might ease the cost scale a bit, giving IAF pilots more hours to clock. We have a fine record now @ 300 hours/year/pilot (estimated). Let is not reduce this just because of a stupid indecision.

200 Tejas
200 NGs
272 MKIs
250 FGFA/PAKFAs
100 AMCAs

Even if we take NG, then also we will be twin-engine-heavy air force which will put a strain on IAF during tight times. Typhoon and Rafale are ripoffs even though they offer good tech. Wonder why European stuff costs so much. And American stuff is plagued with sanctions and political arm-twisting.

After reading so many MRCA threads, I am beginning to see some hope in Gripen NG new version. :p

Respectfully, you are dreaming about the Gripen NG............


My guess if I had to rank the contender in the MMRCA Contest.


Super Hornet
Rafale
Typhoon
Gripen NG*
F-16IN
Mig-35

*Note: I only give the node to the Gripen NG over the F-16IN. Because of the GE F414 in the former as it will also equip the LCA MK2.
 

Crusader53

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MMRCA Buzz



The latest Buzz on MMRCA is that a Top secret file related to the offset clause has gone missing but later on was found on a road in Delhi. Both IAF and MoD has ordered an inquiry on it. Its unlikely to make any difference as the bidders are not allowed to make any further changes to their bid. Never the less it does affects India image and hurts it credibility of running a fair tender competition.

Secondly, it seems like the IAF is opting for a "Completed" platforms for the MMRCA. According to IAF, it would prefer platforms who's development process is competed rather than aircrafts like MiG-35, Gripen NG and F-16IN which are being tweaked to meet IAF's demands. Under-development fighters are expected to face teething issues which could delay their induction which IAF can't afford. So it seems that the cut-off list is up(unofficial) with EF-2000 Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18SH making it in.

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/2010/12/mmrca-buzz.html

I've said for a very long time the contest was down to the Super Hornet, Typhoon, and Rafale. (not that it's a surprise)
 

Crusader53

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IAF is playing it completely safe, aren't they?

Eurofighter AESA radar is pushed to 2015, so not a complete platform, Eurofighter retards to impress IAF with adequate stand off weapons and close air support capability and thus is failed by its lack of strike capbility as in the singapore competition, the others have a chance to edge it out.

But Rafale and Super Hornet don't have engine power that gives them T/W ratio of 1+ required for Indian hot and humid conditions, inducting them thus would be a grave injustice to LCA Tejas mk-1.

what to do?

MOD,

Cancel MMRCA issue new tender to replace Mig-27 and Jaguar because AMCA is late!

IAF chief "Hurrah Lets import F-35 through FMS"

And Everybody lived happily ever after


..=i+..+u=

_=..i2-=

:emot15::emot15::emot15:

Considering how fast 5th Generation Types are progressing. I think you could make a "very good case" for canceling the MMRCA. Instead India should approach the JSF Partner and get a deal to produce the F-35 in India. Which, would likely not be a hard sell in the current Gobal Economy!


Then India could build a Force based on the FGFA and F-35. This would give India access to the best Technology from both East and West and foster a Great Deal of Competiton! Then India could select the best partner for its forthcoming MCA Project.


After that India should be able to design, develop, and build its own domestic types.
 

shuvo@y2k10

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this is a ridiculous argument that f-16 offered to pakistan will not be as advanced as india's.obviously they pakistani f-16 will undergo mid-life upgrade with american/chinese avionics while same cannot be said about indian f-16 since US-INDIA relation is absolutely a relation with no future and with the economic and military progress it might turn into another US-CHINA relation.we have also signed eum agreement with US and if ever it stops spare supplies by imposing sanctions the entire f-16 fleet will be grounded.the mmrca procurement is just a medium weight fighter gap filling exercise and none of the fighters have fulfilled india's requirement completery as per all weather iaf trials .hence rather than going for the platform india must examine which fighter is the cheapest and which fighter will give us the technologies that we urgently need-engines and aesa which can be of immense help in future projects(eg-lsa mk2,fgfa,amca).from that point of view the mig-35 is the most suitable since it can provide us with an aesa radar and a 3-d thrust vectoring engine,though i am not very sure how reliable the deliveries and after sales support will be.the european fighters barring the gripen is exceedingly expensive and also have substansial us manufactured components on board
 

sathya

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EU arms embargo may be lifted in 2011...
in that case china could buy EU aircraft sub systems
which again pushes india to buy US made .. probably f 18
 

SpArK

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Luftwaffe pits Eurofighter against Su-30MKI (David and Goliath):


Note: Errors due to translation maybe there.-SpArK


David and Goliath

Bareilly, India, 30.12.2010.


The Sukhoi Su-27 "Flanker" and its two-seat Indian development, the Su-30 MKI are aviation enthusiasts for many the epitome of highly agile fighter aircraft. Those who do not have the incredible "Cobra" - the major international aviation exhibitions in wonder amazed to maneuver and wondered: "Who's there's a chance in a dogfight?"

The answer is: The Air Force - and with the Euro Fighter



The Su-30 is impressive for its sheer size


The Sukhoi Su-30 MKI is a two-seat advanced variant of the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 interceptor "Flanker", equipped with the latest avionics from different nations, including Russia, Israel, France and India. It is the product of cooperation of Russian and Indian defense industry and also a thrust vector control provided with the machine itself means that it also maneuvers beyond the purely aerodynamic as possible, in the so-called "post stall" - to take wraps, area.


Lt. Col. Frank Simon,Su-30MKI.

Unique opportunity to compare

Lt. Col. Frank Simon was the right man for such a task. As a former pilot of a MiG 29, both the air forces of the NVA and the Fighter Wing 73 "Steinhoff" (JG 73 S), he has an in-designed machine Russia flown both, and the permission to € Fighter to fly the modern.

"So this flight was a special feature, and I looked forward with great anticipation to the experience. Equally excited as I was Lieutenant-Colonel Frank Neurath from € Fighter-type escort from Manching. He accompanied me on this trip to India. "
When creating the suit had already Simon his first-Deja Vu: "The Indian Flanker pilots use the same Russian anti-G trousers that we on the MiG-29 took advantage of it."

Then Simon became the Backseat of his pilots a briefing for the upcoming flight: As the ejection seat to operate it, a brief presentation of the Flanker and admission to the cockpit and the planned maneuvers and procedures.


Su-30 in the mountains

Cobras in the Himalayas

"In the training room by the breathtaking scenery of the Himalayas, it goes right down to business. My Indian pilot demonstrated to me how close and hard to maneuver Su-30 can and then even makes me try the same. We fly a variety of maneuvers with and without thrust vectoring, Immelmann, loop, and finally the cobra maneuver. " And although the Jets still below the Himalayan peaks are, the air would seem for the engines of the Sukhoi quite thin, because The Indian pilot like "the cobra" of the nose diagonally to the bottom only and do not move up because he probably fears that the incoming air is not sufficient for the combustion of oxygen to support the aircraft.


"In the end we still practice how to deal with the Flanker with the aid of the thrust vector control an opponent, attacking from the rear, out-maneuvered and can shoot. To this end, pull the edge after a hard curve sharply upward - based on her like a cobra. The steep attitude you get into a low speed range in which to counteract the thrust vector control. Now we turn so the thrust vector control - and the elegant nose of the Sukhoi falls at a rapid pace down to the astonished enemy to target the same: to speed with the helmet visor, an infrared missile opponents intrude on - and off it. " So much for theory ...



Size comparison

Lesson in physics

"Then I ask the pilot, he should do so again, while the nose quickly over the horizon to bring back order to follow the enemy, if our intention recognizes and tries to climb over us: But not just that he creates. Nose of the Flanker - despite thrust vector control - too heavy for planned maneuvers that. The " A € Fighter would now easy game: The Flanker is sluggish in the air without the speed. "We are the same try again at the end of the flight - with the same result .

In this case the result is not so amazing: Has she passed the Cobra maneuver was successful and the enemy pilot this is not recognized in time, then the Flanker-C possibly the winner of the duel. However, the Cobra maneuver is alive - no matter who runs what pilots and aircraft - even a little of the legend, as an experienced opponent can guess this maneuver. The rest is done by the inertia of the mass: A heavy fighter aircraft like the Flanker-C is disadvantaged by its high weight if it is set by its exceptional aerodynamics and powerful engines only in a position to take wraps to such a maneuver in general, which Most fighters do not make - not even with a thrust vector control. Just the Treibstoffzuladung the Sukhoi over nine tons weight reached nearly empty weight of the € Fighters themselves: Flanker-C is a heavy weight, a Goliath, even with its strong engine here at a - pushes limits - physical.




Defensive measures of EF

Information is everything

The knowledge is sometimes not so new, not necessarily because they already can read on Wikipedia, but also because the Flanker even at one or another international flight maneuvers here and was impressed experienced pilots but by a spectacular performance, but not take advantage of them: A maneuver is only as good as it is able to afford - in the real application, where it arrives within a few seconds later to make the right decision.
For one or the other young Euro Fighter pilots this knowledge will be a valuable pillow, for the extraordinary handling characteristics of € Fighters to the air force pilots, the aerodynamic and technical ability to escape the Cobra maneuver, while this would be combat aircraft of the third generation is usually overwhelming.



Su-30 starts


Duel of the best

Finally, one must ask why this recognition already so public was not, sometimes an indication that the pilots of the NATO and so successful were the past, because they often exerted significantly as, for example, pilots on a MiG-21 former Warsaw Pact countries. But even without the reference to the better practice practice, the Western world from this multi-purpose aircraft have respect for that part of the American F-15E Strike Eagle inspired was his in and one way or another exercise with NATO partners, their weapons systems offered Paroli. The U.S. armed forces even bought in May 2009, two Su-27 Flanker, the electronic warfare better able to assess, opportunities - and thus the results of our own and future weapon systems in comparison.



EF starts

Of course, all weapons systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Because the Flanker as an interceptor designed and heavier in military service introduced was the original, it can be in the action described by the much smaller and lighter € Fighter can not compete, which, subsequently, a better thrust / weight ratio of the day creates what the Luftwaffenjet in fictional scenario to explain this would be winning on points. However, one must consider when comparing all weapon systems, such maneuvers that the detail of a reality show ever.

In real use it would likely be such that the two pilots, with its extensive arsenal of weapons from a distance fight - ever seen to have potential at all without the enemy. And of course, is the Su-30 MKI Cobra maneuver without a never to be underestimated opponent. Your experienced Indian pilots can now focus on maneuvers with the thrust vector control to take wraps extraordinary new. For your own purpose and location of such exchanges including thought - for both sides shall be a win-win situation one.

For the Air Force and all the nations that have concerned the € Fighter, is the knowledge that their weapon system, which has been since its introduction in constant development, the amount of time and that you have made with the technology support Euro Fighter is the right choice.



David und Goliath
 

SpArK

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The ultimate death stare: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
3rd January 2011


Pilot can glance at an aircraft he wants to fire a missile at by using his mind



It looks no more high-tech than any other fighter pilot helmet.
But this £250,000 headset allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them.
The 'Striker' Integrated Display Helmet marks one of the biggest leaps forward in attack capabilities in military history.


How it works: The £250,000 'Striker' Integrated Display Helmet allows RAF pilots to shoot down planes simply by looking at them. As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight, a missile can be directed towards it



All a pilot has to do is glance at an enemy aircraft and then steer a missile towards it with his, or her, mind.
Targets pop-up in the pilot's visor, at which point he can select by voice command and fire.

As long as the enemy's aircraft is in sight - whether that be below, above or to either side - a missile can be directed towards it.
The breakthrough brings to an end the century-old concept of the aerial dogfight, in which one plane must be directly behind another in order to hit it with firepower.

The innovative two-part helmet design has been co-developed with aircrew and logistic support engineering participation.
It works by using tiny optical sensors in the Striker helmet, which are then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit.


In flight: The helmet has undergone extensive testing in RAF Typhoon aircraft​

'It means the end of the dogfight,' leading pilot Mark Bowman told The Sun.
'Traditionally you have to get behind an aircraft to lock on. With this, I steer the weapons with my head.'
The helmet has been developed by Britain's BAE Systems and has been subjected to extensive flight trials in RAF Typhoon planes.
A spokesperson for BAE said: 'An advanced optical head tracker is integrated into the helmet system to provide a high accuracy/low latency solution for low, medium, and high altitude operations.
'While the system has been designed for the Eurofighter Typhoon, its modular design can be applied to all platforms, both rotary and fixed wing.'


Tiny optical sensors in the helmet pick up when the pilot locks onto enemy aircraft, and this is then picked up by further sensors in the cockpit​

Read more: New RAF helmet allows pilots to shoot down enemy jets by looking at them | Mail Online
 

Achilles

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IAF has a sanctioned number of 39.5 squadrons which woukld fall to 26.5 in 2015 and pakistan will be increasing its strength upto 25 sq. thus loosing numerical edge. The reason behind this is, its Mig 21's which were called as flying coffins. IAF had seen many crashes of these aircrafts in 80s and 90s. With upgrade to 'Bisons' Mig 21 can serve for more time line. But till what date. People are here talking about the probable induction of F 35 JSF. All these ppl shud consider that 126 fighter AC are required to fill the gaps as a result of decommisioning the old migs. Also few ppl have suggested for scraping tender and inducting more MKIs. Some even suggested for PAK-FA.
All these fanboys must take in to consideration that IAF has a need of MULTIROLE MEDIUM COMBAT FIGHTER AIRCRAFT and not a heavy class FAC like MKI. Very few know that JSF cant sustain more than 4g manuvers. SO many countries are involved in the JSF program. Also requirement is on higher side of these nations and the project cant deliver before 2015 to 2020. By this time PAK FA would be ready to induct. Also you ppl cant neglect the china and Pakistan threat with having inducting JF 17, J10, Flankers (Chinese copy), J20 (5th Gen aircraft) in near future in a large number.
About contenders, Mig 35 failed to start the engines in cold region. Gripen has its dependancy over US for its components and also there is no Geopolitical gain in the deal. F 16 neither impressed IAF nor Defence ministry, left with three remaining. ET 2000 is good but expensive, same for Rafel and they wont gonna sell us SPACTRA EW suit. And uncle Sam (US) can anytime go arms embargo. not a reliable source. Hence I think in my opinion Indian Gov will go wid EF 2000 or Rafele. ET 2000 would help in Tejas Mk2 program wid eurojet. Let us see what happens in this senario of Mother of Arms deal

Regards
Achilles (Shrikant Parwate, Aurangabad)

PS: Suggestions and views welcomed
 

shuvo@y2k10

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the eurofighter is no match to the su-30mki as the lufftwaffe is trying to project so that we select their fighter in the mmrca.
 

Kunal Biswas

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I wonder how RAFALE M is doing around IN MIG-29K & HARRIERS ?..
 

kuku

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the eurofighter is no match to the su-30mki as the lufftwaffe is trying to project so that we select their fighter in the mmrca.
Right now, they seem to be evenly matched in air to air combat Euro-fighter was designed specifically to deal with the Su-27.30, MiG-29 threat that the Soviets and their allies posed, the Euro-fighter is still making the transition to a multi-role aircraft capable of a air to ground capability where it would be able to attack several targets on a single sortie.

Once the Euro-fighter gets the Meteor and the AESA radar it will outperform the Su-30/35 in air to air combat, unless the Su-30 is itself upgraded to meet the standards.

The problem is that there will never be a scenario where the two planes are going head to head alone, they will always be part of a military force.
 

chex3009

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EU arms embargo may be lifted in 2011...
in that case china could buy EU aircraft sub systems
which again pushes india to buy US made .. probably f 18
EU has decided not to lift Arms Embargo anytime soon. The Europeans are still skeptical about the compliance of the Chinese in some areas, so not coming anytime soon.
 
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Crusader53

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ROFL. Please don't give away false information. F-35A can sustain 9G maneuvers. F-35B and C slightly lower.
I would add......


The F-35A, F-35B, and F-35C can all sustain 9G+. Yet, in peacetime are limited to 9G for the F-35A and 7.5G for the F-35B/C.



As a matter of fact the F-35B/C can be increased to 9G+ at a flick of switch............as can the F/A-18C/D Hornet and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.
 

Crusader53

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Quicker Induction of jets is Key in MMRCA Tender: IAF Official

A high ranked serving officer in Indian air force have told (idrw.org), IAF is looking at quicker induction of the jets into air force, and without any further delays once the winner of the MMRCA Tender competition is out by Mid of next year .

IAF has made a detail study of all the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) Production capability of this jets and also how fast they can get their government approval for Transfer of Core Technology to India, and also ground tools and other spare supplies of the jet to HAL, so that local production of the 108 jets can start in India, first 18 aircraft will be directly sourced from the manufacturer.

Officer also admitted that aircrafts like Gripen NG, MiG-35 and F-16IN which are in the race are more of Built for India jets and Manufactures might face some minor or serious issues with this jets, since most of this jet are still in prototype stage and Avionics and other changes to the aircraft might suffer delays, which might delay whole Production line of the jets or HAL might have issues in doing local production of this jets which might result in to slow induction in IAF fleet.

IAF is already retiring more jets then inducting them and Mig-23 fleet has been already been retired and MMRCA aircraft will fill the gap of this jets, IAF will also be retiring Half of Mig-27 fleet by 2015, so this is a major concern for IAF, since this will also be the period where jets like Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 will be going through major Mid-life up gradation and pulling of this jets for up gradation will leave further void in IAF's operational capability.

Key will be faster induction of MMRCA jets, and also take care that Sukhoi Su 30 MKI and Tejas MK-1 induction have smooth induction into IAF.

http://idrw.org/?p=2091

Looks better for the Super Hornet by the day..........
 
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