More Mig-29's and Mirage 2000's???

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Pakistan does not have M2K's. They have Mirage-III and Mirage-V. Besides these 2nd hand M2K are not that much older. UAE M2Ks are just a decade old and they are well maintained too.

There were negotiation with Qatar, The price was too much for second had airframes..

Regarding MIG-29, IAF already updating its current fleet of MIG-29 to SMT standards, If we buy Second hand MIG-29s they will be gone again for update ...

 

[p2prada]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

There are no decent second hand Mig-29s available right now. The ones that do have too little life left. RMAF can keep their Mig-29 junks.

We had negotiations with Qatar and negotiations ceased for a lot of reasons. Cost is one of them along with another reason being France withdrew M-2000 from MRCA competition. Negotiations happened for 12 aircraft(2004-2006). This was right after Kaveri failed. Pakistan was in the race as well. However I have this theory in which IAF showed interest on the 12 aircraft only to pre-empt PAF from purchasing the aircraft. So, the prices were jacked up by Qatar. This forced PAF to back out and once it was confirmed PAF would buy F-16s, IAF backed out citing costs as a reason. I have another where the IAF was negotiating for the M-2000s, PAF interfered and jacked up the prices and left as quickly. This prompted IAF to cancel the deal due to increased price while PAF purchased F-16s instead. This theory seems to have more weight. The Qatar Mirages are relatively new with the oldest being delivered in 1997. Now it would seem Qatar will sell the M-2000s to Libya. After the deal failed, the IAF increased production rates of the MKI and ordered 40 more from Russia.

UAE has a lot of aircraft and will not be selling them until they decide on Rafale. So, there is quite some time before the sale is made and by then IAF won't be interested since we will also have Rafale inductions by then, maybe even before UAE does.

Anyway, as it stands now, Qatar was the last possible chance for IAF to buy second hand jets. Now there is no chance, since a Rafale deal is so close at hand.

Second hand F-22s sound good.

 

[Bheeshma]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Why would you want the M2K when the Rafale's will start arriving by 20114-15? I would rather get LCA-Mark-II to replace the Mig-21/23/27/Jags and later M2K and Mig-29's

 

[mki]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Hello friends,

I was just thinking that why don't India go for second hand Mirage 2000's in UAE and Qatar? If I am not mistaken Qatari Mirages (some 12 fighters I think) were on offer for us. It would have been a great addition to our M2K fleet as they are already dash 5 versions. Besides UAE is also trying to replace its Mirages with Rafales. UAE versions are dash 9 standard and are the best M2Ks avail today. There are 63 M2K's avail with them.

Now come to MIG-29 Fulcrums. I think Malaysia is operating some MIG-29 N (naval version?) and is looking for foreign buyers as they do not wish to operate them anymore. In my opinion if India try to get these Mirages and Fulcrums it will be a great stop gap measure till Rafales start arriving in next 2-3 years.

We are already having 100+ MIG-27's and some 48 M2K (being upgraded to dash 5) which is a lethal ground attack component of IAF. Imagine if we could get those 75 M2K's (both from Qatar and UAE) we will have a strong 123 M2K fleet for just ground attack along with 100+ MIG-27's. We will have one of the most dangerous ground attack fleet in asia to pound the enemy lines. Malaysian Fulcrums can be used by Navy as a further addition in MIG-29 K's or they can even be used by IAF. Our MIG-29's are anyway famous for providing great escorts to our M2Ks (kargil war )

This way we get good 4th generation fighters as a stop gap measure which will help to boost numbers and capacity in IAF dwindling fleet till all the Flankers are in service and Rafales start arriving in IAF. What you all think?

Regards,

Now we are emerging and claming as big player in the world. We have to act like that.
It will be better to buy new one off the self. ofcoure price tag will be high but now we have earned prestige in the world so need to maintain or increase.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Was IAF really interested in buying the Qatari Mirage 2005s? Not really.

The news was abuzz that the Qatari Mirage were on offer for the Pakistanis, and at a throw away price. India, because of traditional relations, jumped into the fray, and resultant, the Qataris got very interested in the Indian offer.

India used the typical delaying tactics and because of India jumping into the fray, Qataris got greedy and escalated the price significantly, to the extent, the offer price to India was 60mil usd per jet. India ridiculed the price and kept pressing for negotiations and was not ready to quote more than half the price quoted by Qatar.

Eventually, the Pakistan-Qatar deal was scuttled, and motive achieved. Today India-Qatar energy relations are at a stage where India directly exerts pressure on Qatar to not sell mil products to Pakistan, and Qataris are ever willing to oblige India.

Today India would care least about a second hand military product. If there is a serious decline in the numbers, Su30s will be the way of filling up the gap.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

What is the price of it?

Price I do not know but since Qatari M2K were being offered at 60 mil per peace as per post by thakur_ritesh here we can safely assume that UAE M2K's (most advanced version till date) will come at horrible price...But we can at least bargain.

Blackwater also have a point in saying that during war time these M2K's can be supplied to PAF as we have seen this in the past wars. Not only M2K's there is every possibility that even Saudis will send their Typhoons and Eagles to assist PAF.

Personally I also will not like India buying second hand stuff but sometimes I feel that instead of these beauties especially M2K9's (along with Black Shaheen Cruise Missiles on them) falling in the hands of PAF why should not we try them for IAF. Anyhow sooner or later UAE will try to sell these to other country when Rafale deal is closed and sure Pakistan will try to get these. They might purchase them to form a dedicated strike platform for their navy which will be hell of a challenge for IN.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Now we are emerging and claming as big player in the world. We have to act like that.
It will be better to buy new one off the self. ofcoure price tag will be high but now we have earned prestige in the world so need to maintain or increase.

You are rite MKI that we should act like bigger player, but don't you think that China is much bigger player than us but still they went for almost a junk Varyaag and turned it into their first carrier. Instead we are building our carriers (INS VIKRANT & INS VISHAL) from the scratch. This will be only as a stop gap measure and reason simply is high attrition rate in IAF. Imagine we are loosing older MIG's during peace time. During war these fighters will be pushed to their limits and they will be more prone to crash. If we are a real bigger player then we should act like one in different way. i.e. Not allowing US to check our US made stuff...

 

[Jim Street]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

KSA sending their Typhoons and Eagles is now out of question..Due to current diplomatic scenarios...India offers billions of dollars worth investment to Saudis especially their recent interest in India. Even if they do, West and US won't allow them to do so.

@topic
60mil per piece is ridiculous...we will rather ask for Gripen with AESA. As for delay tactics, it has more or less been successful but India will go to extent of canceling of any deal of Qatar with Pakistan . Even if Qatar agree to sell to Pakistan, Pakistan is struggling with soft loan interest for J-10B from China, which they need the most. So this offer doesn't come at priority level while other countries can offer more money than Pakistan without any delay in payment.

@in general
It has to be kept in mind that Indian economy has become our primary weapon which is being used regularly and as far as GCC is concerned, they are moving towards other source of income rather than oil . They are getting more focused on technology and other products which definitely has market for India and India can provide them technology at much lower cost..

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

^^ I agree that we should say "Thanks but no thanks" if these second hand frames are being offered at 60 mil price tag. I mean we should try to bargain at half the price they ask us. Anyway we can keep our offer higher always than the offer given by our enemies. Going for Gripens will be another logistic nightmare. Instead try to get the plane for which infrastructure, training is already there and wait for healthy numbers of Flankers, Rafales and Tejas.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

if you want to go for second hand stuff then sea harriers is not bad choice for future Marines for Indian army. UK might sell them.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

if you want to go for second hand stuff then sea harriers is not bad choice for future Marines for Indian army. UK might sell them.

It will be a nice idea. UK harriers are well maintained and much more lethal than our harriers. Besides personally I will be too sad to see our vertical tech off capable fighters retire in some coming years. So getting UK harriers will resume our VTOL capacity back.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

best thing about them is short take off and landing so they can operate near the war zone. Just like in true lie movie.

 

[Jim Street]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

^^ I agree that we should say "Thanks but no thanks" if these second hand frames are being offered at 60 mil price tag. I mean we should try to bargain at half the price they ask us. Anyway we can keep our offer higher always than the offer given by our enemies. Going for Gripens will be another logistic nightmare. Instead try to get the plane for which infrastructure, training is already there and wait for healthy numbers of Flankers, Rafales and Tejas.

Flankers...air superiority, not me MRCA, Rafale, have to wait as there is no parallel production, Tejas, yet to see the day after 2014 with no clear advantage on Gripen, especially MKI Tejas. Mirages, production line stopped, will create another nightmare, much severe than Gripen induction, will end to cannibalism.

Infrastrucutre has to be developed even if it is for entirely new platform.

Remember, Rafale order of 126 will take years to complete and we need parallel induction, at any cost also keeping in mind the quality.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Flankers...air superiority, not me MRCA, Rafale, have to wait as there is no parallel production, Tejas, yet to see the day after 2014 with no clear advantage on Gripen, especially MKI Tejas. Mirages, production line stopped, will create another nightmare, much severe than Gripen induction, will end to cannibalism.

Infrastrucutre has to be developed even if it is for entirely new platform.

Remember, Rafale order of 126 will take years to complete and we need parallel induction, at any cost also keeping in mind the quality.

I am again not saying that we should buy 2nd hand fighters at ridiculous prices. We should buy them only if they are avail at the price the 2nd fighters deserve.

Getting Gripen means it will again come at high price tag. 50 mil+ per peace. Infrastructure has to be developed but at what cost? second hand fighters are there to act as "stop gap measure". For stop gap we cannot go for entirely new platform for which we have to start everything from the scratch. M2K I do not find any maintenance issue as we are using these fighters since years. M2K still has a lot of commonality even with Rafale. Gripen is only marginally better platform than LCA but it is our own home made fighter and instead of buying Gripen we should concentrate on making it better than it . And don't you think that buying new Gripens will make look our entire MRCA competition meaningless?

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

if you want to go for second hand stuff then sea harriers is not bad choice for future Marines for Indian army. UK might sell them.

They all gone to US, the price tag was nearly $180 million for the lot.

 

[sayareakd]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

US knows about value of those planes. At the time of Kargil war, when our AC was undergoing repair, we had Sea Harriers on modified tanker.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Price I do not know but since Qatari M2K were being offered at 60 mil per peace as per post by thakur_ritesh here we can safely assume that UAE M2K's (most advanced version till date) will come at horrible price...But we can at least bargain.

Blackwater also have a point in saying that during war time these M2K's can be supplied to PAF as we have seen this in the past wars. Not only M2K's there is every possibility that even Saudis will send their Typhoons and Eagles to assist PAF.

Personally I also will not like India buying second hand stuff but sometimes I feel that instead of these beauties especially M2K9's (along with Black Shaheen Cruise Missiles on them) falling in the hands of PAF why should not we try them for IAF. Anyhow sooner or later UAE will try to sell these to other country when Rafale deal is closed and sure Pakistan will try to get these. They might purchase them to form a dedicated strike platform for their navy which will be hell of a challenge for IN.

I don't know why MoD is not taking interest in second weapons!

UK's naval ships, one another EU country did sell few Leo tanks at quite cheaper price. But MoD didn't take it that serious. I think.

BTW, these air-crafts were very costly, so better stay away of it.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

Price I do not know but since Qatari M2K were being offered at 60 mil per peace as per post by thakur_ritesh here we can safely assume that UAE M2K's (most advanced version till date) will come at horrible price...But we can at least bargain.

Blackwater also have a point in saying that during war time these M2K's can be supplied to PAF as we have seen this in the past wars. Not only M2K's there is every possibility that even Saudis will send their Typhoons and Eagles to assist PAF.

Personally I also will not like India buying second hand stuff but sometimes I feel that instead of these beauties especially M2K9's (along with Black Shaheen Cruise Missiles on them) falling in the hands of PAF why should not we try them for IAF. Anyhow sooner or later UAE will try to sell these to other country when Rafale deal is closed and sure Pakistan will try to get these. They might purchase them to form a dedicated strike platform for their navy which will be hell of a challenge for IN.

I don't know why MoD is not taking interest in second weapons!

UK's naval ships, one another EU country did sell few Leo tanks at quite cheaper price. But MoD didn't take it that serious. I think.

BTW, these air-crafts were very costly, so better stay away of it.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

They all gone to US, the price tag was nearly $180 million for the lot.

Thanks Casper... this shows that buying second hand weapons in not going to degrade our image as a bigger player when world's most powerful nation buys 2nd hand jets from UK.

 

[The Fox]

Re: Second Hand Mirage 2000's and MIG-29 Fulcrums as stopgap ?

There are no decent second hand Mig-29s available right now. The ones that do have too little life left. RMAF can keep their Mig-29 junks.

We had negotiations with Qatar and negotiations ceased for a lot of reasons. Cost is one of them along with another reason being France withdrew M-2000 from MRCA competition. Negotiations happened for 12 aircraft(2004-2006). This was right after Kaveri failed. Pakistan was in the race as well. However I have this theory in which IAF showed interest on the 12 aircraft only to pre-empt PAF from purchasing the aircraft. So, the prices were jacked up by Qatar. This forced PAF to back out and once it was confirmed PAF would buy F-16s, IAF backed out citing costs as a reason. I have another where the IAF was negotiating for the M-2000s, PAF interfered and jacked up the prices and left as quickly. This prompted IAF to cancel the deal due to increased price while PAF purchased F-16s instead. This theory seems to have more weight. The Qatar Mirages are relatively new with the oldest being delivered in 1997. Now it would seem Qatar will sell the M-2000s to Libya. After the deal failed, the IAF increased production rates of the MKI and ordered 40 more from Russia.

UAE has a lot of aircraft and will not be selling them until they decide on Rafale. So, there is quite some time before the sale is made and by then IAF won't be interested since we will also have Rafale inductions by then, maybe even before UAE does.

Anyway, as it stands now, Qatar was the last possible chance for IAF to buy second hand jets. Now there is no chance, since a Rafale deal is so close at hand.

Second hand F-22s sound good.

Did you know my friend france before they closed down MIRAGE 2000 production they offered the entire production line including technology to india and India rejected....... do not know why they did reject it......