Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[Bhadra]

The tag of defence professional under your profile name did elucidate respect initially, but seeing how you respond to things make me believe you to be a big farce.

So Einstein, could you kindly enlighten us on what is the biggest contribution of defence professionals like you on programmes like INSAS, since you brought it up.

The tag is what I do not decide. Some moderator decides it and I never told them or claimed it. you can protest and ask for its removal keeping in true tradition of your culture "chalbo na". Moreover that tag does not give me any privileges. Like you I do not use fake and westernised Assam Rifles avatar showing some scottish man and family rather than original Gorkha soldier and his family .That is enough to show your Einstein mentality.

Respect also, I never demand from someone like you who instead of discussing things wants others to agree by throwing some Naxal type bullshit. That is what someone appear to have done in this revolutionary grenade.

We are not here to pass opinions on others. If you have some guts in you, answer the questions raised .
Issues and questions make Einstein and not epithets. Please do not indulge into farting your traits out.

Answer issues raised.

First, which other country has "offensive" and "Defensive' grande issued to their soldiers? Any one who has done that has to "Einstein" as per your say.

Now let us start ...Ok No more expletives.

 

[Bhadra]

Just a conjecture from non-guru:
It would be offensive at all times, except you are in the bunker or trench and all your buddies are inside and well protected from sharpnels. If you are holding a point, or making a last stand - fix grenade sleeves.

I agree.
If it has to be one grenade all through then why have two types.
Grenade is a weapon which does not give soldier time to thank about "defensive" or "offensive".
Grenade under all circumstances, conditions,and application is "offensive".

No grenade on earth shouts "hey, do not come here"...

 

[Chinmoy]

The tag is what I do not decide. Some moderator decides it and I never told them or claimed it. you can protest and ask for its removal keeping in true tradition of your culture "chalbo na". Moreover that tag does not give me any privileges. Like you I do not use fake and westernised Assam Rifles avatar showing some scottish man and family rather than original Gorkha soldier and his family .That is enough to show your Einstein mentality.

Respect also, I never demand from someone like you who instead of discussing things wants others to agree by throwing some Naxal type bullshit. That is what someone appear to have done in this revolutionary grenade.

We are not here to pass opinions on others. If you have some guts in you, answer the questions raised .
Issues and questions make Einstein and not epithets. Please do not indulge into farting your traits out.

Answer issues raised.

First, which other country has "offensive" and "Defensive' grande issued to their soldiers? Any one who has done that has to "Einstein" as per your say.

Now let us start ...Ok No more expletives.

I already mentioned it on previous post where I clarified by tagging @Bleh that its not the offensive or defensive mode which makes Shivalik a multimode grenade. Its the launch mode which makes it multimode in role.

So no point in getting hyper over non issue.

 

[Bhadra]

I already mentioned it on previous post where I clarified by tagging @Bleh that its not the offensive or defensive mode which makes Shivalik a multimode grenade. Its the launch mode which makes it multimode in role.

So no point in getting hyper over non issue.

Thanks for the reply.

However DRDO claims something else :
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/oct1999/arma.htm


ARMAMENTS

MULTIMODE GRENADE

DRDO has developed a general purpose antipersonnel grenade, named Shivalik, for use in offensive and defensive role in the hand mode and for launching from the rifle by using normal ball ammunition. The bullet trap technology used in the grenade eliminates the need of the special ballistite or gas cartridge for launching grenade from the rifle. The state-of-the-art multimode grenade Shivalik thus enhances the fire power of the infantry soldier manifold

Technological Features

Modular Design:Shivalik has three basic modules—fuze, grenade body and launcher tube. The different modules can be assembled or dissembled with ease. It is possible to prime and unprime the grenade any number of times without affecting its efficiency. The fuze assembly forms the basic module. With the explosive filled non-splintering body, it forms an offensive grenade. Addition of fragmenting sleeve transforms it into defensive grenade and the attachment of a launch tube converts it into a rifle grenade.

Multi-Mode Concept:Shivalik is multi-functional depending on the situation. In offensive role, it is used in the final stages of assault from a distance of about 50 m from the line of enemy defence. Being non-splintering type, offensive grenade on detonation stuns the enemy through concussion effect within a radius of about 5 m from the point of burst. In the defensive mode, it is used against the enemy troops in open when our own troops are in defence. The controlled and uniform spread of the fragments from the fragmenting sleeve can incapacitate a human being within a specified radius from the point of burst, but causes no harm to our own troops beyond a certain predetermined distance.

The technology of the prefragmented pellets, embedded in a plastic matrix has been fully established. The main bursting charge is precast pellet (RDX/TNT), the technology for which has been developed indigenously. The bullet trap technology has been incorporated in the launching tube, which enables use of normal ball ammunition for its launch from 5.56 mm INSAS rifle.

Fuze:The fuze has been designed to function on impact with a guarantee of self-destruction due to incorporation of a predetermined delay. The fuze functions at all angles of impact. An additional safety mechanism has been provided by a shutter mechanism blocking the explosive train. A safety lever mechanism has been incorporated to hold the safety pin secured. In rifle grenade lever is secured by a metallic ring which flies back due to set back forces on firing arming the fuze after a safe distance

Sight:A bubble sight has been provided for mounting on the rifle to aid the firer to achieve the desired ranges at different firing angles. The maximum range achieved by the rifle grenade is 200 m in comparison to 120 m presently achieved from M 36 grenade.

The grenade body has been made very light and compact by using special polymers. The shape is more ergonomical. The grenade, besides being paradroppable, can be used in the temperature range of -20 oC to +55 oC and is not affected by rain or humidity conditions. The grenade is maintenance free. The Shivalik grenade is in the final stages of user trials. With its introduction into the Services, it will substantially contribute to the infantry’s capabilities in the battlefield and the country will move one step forward towards its mission of self-reliance.

 

[Bhadra]

@Chinmoy

Other basic issues have not been answered :
What is the life of lithium battery in fuze at -20 and +45 ?
How will it be replaced ?
Will it create impediment is reliability of the grenades,

The earlier grenade could also be launched by hand and by rifle . So was that also multi mode ?

Is a soldier supposed to carry the cast iron sleeve all the time? Or will the grenade come pre fitted with sleeve which is required to be removed.

Since the rifle launching tube is designed for INSAs and 5,.56 ball round, witl the launching tube fit with AK -203 and Sig - saur rifles? what effects and range will be achieved with 7.62 X 39 and 7.62 X 45 ?

Will bubble sight for launching grenade from a rifle be given to every soldier ?

 

[MuzzleVelocity]

I find it a bit hilarious that we still use the Bren machine gun. Especially when you look at how long we have been using it.

 

[Nebula]

I find it a bit hilarious that we still use the Bren machine gun. Especially when you look at how long we have been using it.

They are heavy, bulky but very reliable. Thats why its still in service. Its not the same bren gun used in WW2, some things have changed.

Until we find a suitable replacement the soldiers like to keep it in their inventory, though it doesnt look modern.

 

[garg_bharat]

@Chinmoy

Other basic issues have not been answered :
What is the life of lithium battery in fuze at -20 and +45 ?
How will it be replaced ?

I think article says that fuse (which contains the battery) can be replaced. Battery is likely watch battery (button cell) which can easily last five years.

 

[Bhadra]

http://ofb.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/gr/25.htm


FEATURES OFFENSIVE DEFENSIVE
Wt. 250 gm 490 gm
Length 140 mm 140 mm
Dia 46 mm 63 mm
Max. Range 40 M 35 M
Fuze 3 Sec. Delay 3 Sec. Delay
Charge RDX/TNT RDX/TNT
Charge Wt. 100g 100g
No. of Pragments NIL 4000 - 4500
Lethal Radius 3-5 M 8-10 M

Contact :

Marketing & Export Division
Ordnance Factory Board
Ayudh Bhawan
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
10A, S. K. Bose Road, Kolkata – 700 001, India.

www.ofb.gov.in

 

[Bhadra]

Watch the vidieo to get some idea :
However, the vidieo is wrong in showing Grenade Launcher and to say that this grenade can be fired from grenade launchers. The grenade can be fired using INSAS Rifles using normal ball ammunition round through a launch tube.

 

[Bhadra]

I am getting to understand this grenade slowly - I am surely that dumb witted.
The problem is also that some of the members here argue very subjectively - "DRDO is God" and some like me start with DODOs.

Those who claim to know the subject either do not care to explain it or just throw some garble with usual bullshit.

 

[Bhadra]

I think article says that fuse (which contains the battery) can be replaced. Battery is likely watch battery (button cell) which can easily last five years.

yes, it can be replaced but the fuze as per the claims is a dual action fuze. It is mechanical as also electronic. That means even if battery is dead it will function mechanically on 3 second delay.

3 Seconds delay in initiation of explosive chain is achieved both mechanically as also electronically. That is why they are calling the fuze "Mechatronic".

 

[Bhadra]

By now I have also understood the "technical bullshit" DRDO/TBRL has peddled out with the grenade for it being so called multimode as modern marketing gimmicks.

The grenade comes with iron / prefabricated plastic outer casing which has embedded fragmentations. If it is removed and launched it becomes more of a blast grenade as inner case is very thin and not fragmented. So most of the time there would be no requirement to remove the outer casing. Take it out the grenade and use it anywhere. There is no defensive or offensive about it.

The fuze is misaligned initially as safety feature and will get aligned on removal of safety pin and throw. After three seconds it will burst.

The so called "Offensive Mode" would be preplanned and pre determined to use grenades in blast mode only if nature of operations so demands. Otherwise the grenade will remain in fragmentation mode.

Embedded ball types of fragments about 4000 or so is what is the fundamental requirement of modern grenades which has been catered for.

 

[Kay]

By now I have also understood the "technical bullshit" DRDO/TBRL has peddled out with the grenade for it being so called multimode as modern marketing gimmicks.

The grenade comes with iron / prefabricated plastic outer casing which has embedded fragmentations. If it is removed and launched it becomes more of a blast grenade as inner case is very thin and not fragmented. So most of the time there would be no requirement to remove the outer casing. Take it out the grenade and use it anywhere. There is no defensive or offensive about it.

The fuze is misaligned initially as safety feature and will get aligned on removal of safety pin and throw. After three seconds it will burst.

The so called "Offensive Mode" would be preplanned and pre determined to use grenades in blast mode only if nature of operations so demands. Otherwise the grenade will remain in fragmentation mode.

Embedded ball types of fragments about 4000 or so is what is the fundamental requirement of modern grenades which has been catered for.

Actually, US army used to issue two separate kinds of grenades earlier - offensive or concussion type grenades and defensive or fragmentation grenades. The concussion type grenades previous issued were stopped due to asbestos poisoning.
Shivalik uses a fragmentation sleeves to convert to defensive mode from offensive mode. But US is making a true multi-mode grenade, which can be either offensive or defensive based on flipping of a switch.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a22935/us-army-et-mp-grenade/

 

[Chinmoy]

By now I have also understood the "technical bullshit" DRDO/TBRL has peddled out with the grenade for it being so called multimode as modern marketing gimmicks.

The grenade comes with iron / prefabricated plastic outer casing which has embedded fragmentations. If it is removed and launched it becomes more of a blast grenade as inner case is very thin and not fragmented. So most of the time there would be no requirement to remove the outer casing. Take it out the grenade and use it anywhere. There is no defensive or offensive about it.

The fuze is misaligned initially as safety feature and will get aligned on removal of safety pin and throw. After three seconds it will burst.

The so called "Offensive Mode" would be preplanned and pre determined to use grenades in blast mode only if nature of operations so demands. Otherwise the grenade will remain in fragmentation mode.

Embedded ball types of fragments about 4000 or so is what is the fundamental requirement of modern grenades which has been catered for.

DRDO and OFB has just said what British used to say about the Mills grenade. Defensive role with fragmentation and offensive role with concussion. Its no wonder for DRDO/OFB to use these terms as we are used to license build the 36M till date. But from user perspective, it doesn't matter which role it serves. No one is going to stand in open after throwing the grenade as its in offensive role nor anyone is going to decide which role to use before throwing it.

As far as mode is concerned, the above post which you quoted from DRDO gives ample example of it. Let me take the liberty of quoting few lines from it.

MULTIMODE GRENADE

DRDO has developed a general purpose antipersonnel grenade, named Shivalik, for use in offensive and defensive role in the hand mode and for launching from the rifle by using normal ball ammunition

Now please look at the underlined part. Offensive and Deffensive ROLE. Hand and Rifle MODE.

Now coming to the older grenades which we were using, which could also be tube launched or hand thrown, we have to look the the below part.

Shivalik has three basic modules—fuze, grenade body and launcher tube

We could see that the launcher tube is modular in Shivalik. So being modular in nature, it could be attached to the same grenade in field instead of being purpose build like our older ones.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/gr/4.htm

So 36M is not a multimode grenade like Shivalik in true sense.

As far as firing it from 7.62 rifle is concerned, untill we are using tube launch system, we have to be specific about that IMO.

India don't produce LION cell and only recently TATA chemical has got the ToT from ISRO for that. So about the specification on cell part, I think we would have to wait a bit.

 

[Bhadra]

Actually, US army used to issue two separate kinds of grenades earlier - offensive or concussion type grenades and defensive or fragmentation grenades. The concussion type grenades previous issued were stopped due to asbestos poisoning.
Shivalik uses a fragmentation sleeves to convert to defensive mode from offensive mode. But US is making a true multi-mode grenade, which can be either offensive or defensive based on flipping of a switch.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a22935/us-army-et-mp-grenade/

I have used US grenades (available in plenty with terrorists in J&K). It is an ideal, very light wight plain body grenades with plenty of steel balls which injures you very badly.

One can throw it farther, easy to operate and carry. There is nothing defensive and offensive about it.

 

[Bhadra]

DRDO and OFB has just said what British used to say about the Mills grenade. Defensive role with fragmentation and offensive role with concussion. Its no wonder for DRDO/OFB to use these terms as we are used to license build the 36M till date. But from user perspective, it doesn't matter which role it serves. No one is going to stand in open after throwing the grenade as its in offensive role nor anyone is going to decide which role to use before throwing it.

That is fine till Sep Bhoop Singh gets a grenade to throw as last resort which should not prove to be a dud. His confidence and faith in a weapon system is the most important thing for Indian Army.

As far as mode is concerned, the above post which you quoted from DRDO gives ample example of it. Let me take the liberty of quoting few lines from it.

Now please look at the underlined part. Offensive and Deffensive ROLE. Hand and Rifle MODE.

Semantics only. Number 36 Grenade has the same roles and same modes. Concussion is of little desires result. concussion due to grenade blast as compared to blast effects of a 155mm shell or PINAKA type rocket shell be too insignificant. Kill or injury is better.

Now coming to the older grenades which we were using, which could also be tube launched or hand thrown, we have to look the the below part.

We could see that the launcher tube is modular in Shivalik. So being modular in nature, it could be attached to the same grenade in field instead of being purpose build like our older ones.

agreed. Number 36 Grenade also has an attachable tube launcher but the grenade has to be primed with 7 Second Fuze as also it requires a special cartridge to be fired from Rifle 7.62.

So 36M is not a multimode grenade like Shivalik in true sense.

As far as firing it from 7.62 rifle is concerned, until we are using tube launch system, we have to be specific about that IMO.

OK .... but if multi means mode then 36 grenade is also hand and rifle launched. What is better. while launching 36 Grenade from a Rifle if 4 Second Fuze is used what is achieved is an "air burst" capability- not possible in present grenade.

India don't produce LION cell and only recently TATA chemical has got the ToT from ISRO for that. So about the specification on cell part, I think we would have to wait a bit.

Mechtronic arrangement is fine.

 

[Chinmoy]

OK .... but if multi means mode then 36 grenade is also hand and rifle launched. What is better. while launching 36 Grenade from a Rifle if 4 Second Fuze is used what is achieved is an "air burst" capability- not possible in present grenade.

The rifle launched 36M does come with a prefabricated launch tube. The hand thrown version of same can't be used as a rifle launched one unless one uses the cup mechanism and a blank cartridge. So basically it comes in a two mode version. One is to be thrown by hand and other launched from tube.

Shivalik is different in this part as the same grenade which is thrown by hand could be assembled to launch from rifle because of the modular design. The launch tube of it unlike 36M is a module. So as long as the soldier carries a supply of launch tube, he could use the same grenade in both mode as required. He needn't carry two different grenade. One with tube attached and one without the tube. But I think UBGL round would be far better. I would atleast go for that on any given day.

I would not go into other parts as I believe there is nothing defensive about a grenade. When I would throw one, it would be on offensive purpose irrespective of fragments or concussion or anything else. For me or for anyone else, I think, Offence is the best Defence.

 

[Bhadra]

@Chinmoy Sir,

We are unnecessarily getting / migrating to "Grenade 36 M Hand and Tube Launching". I am sure both are same so far tube launching is concerned. It has a base screw and the bottom of the base screw has female threaded portion to take in the launch tube. As I said earlier, the grenade is requires to be primed with different 7 second fuze and an iron ring is inserted over the safety liver before firing, It requires a ballistic cartridge to fire it from 7.62. It is cumbersome and time consuming alright but not what you are claiming.

Let us get over it and move forward.

GRENADE 36 M HAND AND TUBE LAUNCHING

PRINT DOCUMENT

This is an anti-personnel ammunition of fragmentation type, generally hand thrown. However, it can also be projected from a Rifle 7.62 mm 1A1 fitted with projector grenade 7.62 mm 1A using Cartridge SA, rifle grenade 7.62 mm HD. (TUBE LAUNCHING).

The grenade has a range of 23 to 27 metres when hurled manually and an increased range of 183 metres when fired form a 7.62 mm rifle. It explodes into 40 to 60 fragments, killing and maiming the enemy within an effective radius of 27.5 mts.

Specification :
Grenade body Cast iron, segmented externally for better Fragmentation
Explosive TNT
Detonator 4 second delay (hand grenade) and 7 second delay (rifle grenade)
Mass of grenade Hand 680 g
Rifle 802 g

Packing :
Ten grenades are hermetically sealed in a steel Box and four such boxes are packed into one carrier. A total of 40 grenades per package. Average gross weight is 53 kgs and the package dimensions are 660 mm x 325 mm x 215 mm.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/gr/4.htm

 

[Kay]

@Chinmoy Sir,

We are unnecessarily getting / migrating to "Grenade 36 M Hand and Tube Launching". I am sure both are same so far tube launching is concerned. It has a base screw and the bottom of the base screw has female threaded portion to take in the launch tube. As I said earlier, the grenade is requires to be primed with different 7 second fuze and an iron ring is inserted over the safety liver before firing, It requires a ballistic cartridge to fire it from 7.62. It is cumbersome and time consuming alright but not what you are claiming.

Let us get over it and move forward.

GRENADE 36 M HAND AND TUBE LAUNCHING

PRINT DOCUMENT

This is an anti-personnel ammunition of fragmentation type, generally hand thrown. However, it can also be projected from a Rifle 7.62 mm 1A1 fitted with projector grenade 7.62 mm 1A using Cartridge SA, rifle grenade 7.62 mm HD. (TUBE LAUNCHING).

The grenade has a range of 23 to 27 metres when hurled manually and an increased range of 183 metres when fired form a 7.62 mm rifle. It explodes into 40 to 60 fragments, killing and maiming the enemy within an effective radius of 27.5 mts.

Specification :
Grenade body Cast iron, segmented externally for better Fragmentation
Explosive TNT
Detonator 4 second delay (hand grenade) and 7 second delay (rifle grenade)
Mass of grenade Hand 680 g
Rifle 802 g

Packing :
Ten grenades are hermetically sealed in a steel Box and four such boxes are packed into one carrier. A total of 40 grenades per package. Average gross weight is 53 kgs and the package dimensions are 660 mm x 325 mm x 215 mm.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/ammunition/gr/4.htm

I believe the 36 M rifle tube would need blank cartridge to be fired. The one in Shivalik has bullet trap technology allowing live munition to be fired.