Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

Corvus Splendens

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
1,073
Likes
7,700
Country flag
For the cost of 10 K9 you could have every PARA SF armed with all the Gucci gear of a tier 1 SMU in the US. Of course training plays a big part in mindset and employment of that equipment so I doubt they’d be able to match the top units in the world purely by giving them new gear.

that said there’s no freaking excuse for not giving them any new kit in the last 10 years worth a damn (a few high cuts here and there mean nothing), their standard load out is the same as it was in 2009, maybe they have more ACHs that’s about it.

shocking that the IA HQ doesn’t consider this a concern
That's because the establishment doesn't WANT to spend that amount of money on individual operators even. They aren't idiots, if they wanted to spend the money to equip them all equally as per global standard, they would've done so 10 years ago. Hell they regularly train with US Special Forces, they know what they are lacking equipment wise. The attitude is, "work with what you have, you're going to deal with insurgents anyway, you've had little setback over the years so we don't have to actually upgrade your kit drastically, you'll be fine". "The money is better spent at showcasing outdated kit for infantry standardization that'll get stuck in limbo". We'll give you some tacky crap when we need to do some photo ops.
 

ezsasa

Designated Cynic
Mod
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
27,803
Likes
124,370
Country flag
@abingdonboy @ezsasa @SKC or anyone else... can confirm whether the orders for the following were ever made? This was 1st reported approx 3 yrs ago by various media outlets

View attachment 190244
FMS route acquisition process details will not be public, unless someone spots the equipment in some recent pics.

i don't recall seeing any pics of the equipment on the left hand side in the hands of para SF in recent period.
 

Love Charger

चक्रवर्ती
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2021
Messages
10,503
Likes
27,317
For the cost of 10 K9 you could have every PARA SF armed with all the Gucci gear of a tier 1 SMU in the US. Of course training plays a big part in mindset and employment of that equipment so I doubt they’d be able to match the top units in the world purely by giving them new gear.

that said there’s no freaking excuse for not giving them any new kit in the last 10 years worth a damn (a few high cuts here and there mean nothing), their standard load out is the same as it was in 2009, maybe they have more ACHs that’s about it.

shocking that the IA HQ doesn’t consider this a concern
I will any day and any night and all that is between, prefer to buy 10 new155 /52 mm guns because thaey can blast the enemy off and anyways , what are SF going to deal with ?
It's not they will do missions in Bosnia or iraq or afgandistan.
Any specific task and operation. Which needs such a level of expertise , can be arranged on a case to case basis anyay .
Can the SF of any country , not just ours , go in 350 kilometres and demolish a whole air field ? In today's day and age ?Against a competent enemy ?
The sas and chindits era is long gone according to me .
But a battery of 10 guns , if they get in the range of even 70 kilometers can vry well destroy that airfield or even better Tactical ballistic missiles and cruise missiles are just the weapons made for the job
 

Corvus Splendens

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
1,073
Likes
7,700
Country flag

vidhwanshak

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2021
Messages
1,787
Likes
8,487
Country flag
When General Pande said IA has about 41% of vintage equipment, what does he really mean by the term vintage?

Like procurement done before which year comes under the vintage category?
Similarly, procurement done before which years come under the category of vintage and state of art?

Is INSAS vintage or State Of Art?
What about Sahrang artillery? Are they vintage or state of art?

The classification of the equipment under vintage, modern, and state of art has many ambiguities.
 

Johny_Baba

अज्ञानी
Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2016
Messages
2,787
Likes
13,279
Country flag
Is INSAS vintage or State Of Art?
What about Sahrang artillery? Are they vintage or state of art?
>INSAS
>STATE OF THE ART
and being 'vintage' ? you decide...for me i refuse to call it Vintage it lacks appeal and quality parts...
1674546858978.png


as for Sharang = 155mm uprated version of M-46
lemme show you something,
1674548303964.png

this was from some old pamphlet of Bosnian and Herzegovian UNIS group's artillery manufacturing division something showcasing their upgrade program for M-46 from 130mm to 155mm etc etc,
and it's not just Bosnian-Herzegovian but Serbians and many such eastern euros have similar programs there - this makes me believe OFB just got this tech from one of eastern euro and labled it "Sharang" here

it's not outdated per se, perhaps vintage yes as at least it werks fine
 

NoobWannaLearn

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2022
Messages
1,551
Likes
4,203
Country flag

SilentlAssassin265

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2019
Messages
906
Likes
2,285
Country flag
>INSAS
>STATE OF THE ART
and being 'vintage' ? you decide...for me i refuse to call it Vintage it lacks appeal and quality parts...
View attachment 190792

as for Sharang = 155mm uprated version of M-46
lemme show you something,
View attachment 190795
this was from some old pamphlet of Bosnian and Herzegovian UNIS group's artillery manufacturing division something showcasing their upgrade program for M-46 from 130mm to 155mm etc etc,
and it's not just Bosnian-Herzegovian but Serbians and many such eastern euros have similar programs there - this makes me believe OFB just got this tech from one of eastern euro and labled it "Sharang" here

it's not outdated per se, perhaps vintage yes as at least it werks fine
Field gun shoots like tank while artillery shoots high right ?
 

vidhwanshak

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2021
Messages
1,787
Likes
8,487
Country flag
>INSAS
>STATE OF THE ART
and being 'vintage' ? you decide...for me i refuse to call it Vintage it lacks appeal and quality parts...
View attachment 190792

as for Sharang = 155mm uprated version of M-46
lemme show you something,
View attachment 190795
this was from some old pamphlet of Bosnian and Herzegovian UNIS group's artillery manufacturing division something showcasing their upgrade program for M-46 from 130mm to 155mm etc etc,
and it's not just Bosnian-Herzegovian but Serbians and many such eastern euros have similar programs there - this makes me believe OFB just got this tech from one of eastern euro and labled it "Sharang" here

it's not outdated per se, perhaps vintage yes as at least it werks fine
I get what you are trying to say but we don't know which category the armed forces classify these types of equipment into. Without any formal definition from the Army's side, it's hard to tell which equipment is vintage and which isn't.

Let's say Saharang is vintage equipment, but after upgrades will it be placed into a modern or vintage category by the armed forces?

IMHO, someone should have asked during the press release what type of weapons exactly constitutes these categories.
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
6,757
Likes
26,264
Country flag
India may procure small number of JLTV for Ladakh region or for special forces friend of mine in Oshkosh has said Indian Defence ministry is in negotiating UpTo 50 to 100 JLTV


Lol, not happening

what do they bring? India ordered 1300 ASLVs already along with M4s and TATA MPVs for the LAC
 

Lonewarrior

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Messages
1,011
Likes
3,948
Country flag
Field gun shoots like tank while artillery shoots high right ?
Nope

Anything that can shoot a warhead from point A to point B in a ballistic or quasi-ballistic trajectory is an artillery. In layman's terms; anything that's not a tank is an artillery. From 60mm mortars to 203mm howitzers; everything's an artillery. Even ballistic missiles are artillery (the designation used by PLA for it's missile forces is "Second Artillery Corps").

Now coming to field guns, they don't have such hi-tech definition. Anything light enough to be moved with the infantry is a field gun.

And as for direct fire or "shoots like tank", every single piece of modern artillery is equipped with an optical sight and a kind of DOPE (Data of previous engagement) plate for direct fire. Even M777 can engage tanks if they're lucky to spot one.
 

SwordOfDarkness

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
1,874
Likes
8,757
Country flag
Nope

Anything that can shoot a warhead from point A to point B in a ballistic or quasi-ballistic trajectory is an artillery. In layman's terms; anything that's not a tank is an artillery. From 60mm mortars to 203mm howitzers; everything's an artillery. Even ballistic missiles are artillery (the designation used by PLA for it's missile forces is "Second Artillery Corps").

Now coming to field guns, they don't have such hi-tech definition. Anything light enough to be moved with the infantry is a field gun.

And as for direct fire or "shoots like tank", every single piece of modern artillery is equipped with an optical sight and a kind of DOPE (Data of previous engagement) plate for direct fire. Even M777 can engage tanks if they're lucky to spot one.
The first definition wont work, MPF, MGS, BMP-1, BMP-3 etc arent artillery. AFAIK, the general difference is that artillery has to be capable of lobbing shells at higher angles for hitting entrenched troops or non-LOS targets, while tanks, tank destroyers, fire support vehicles etc will only have direct fire.

Infographic:

1675028723666.png

1675028792233.png
 

Lonewarrior

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2019
Messages
1,011
Likes
3,948
Country flag
Most of the time 105mm of MPF won't shoot in a ballistic trajectory, it'll engage in direct fire.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.
Most of the time 105mm of MPF won't shoot in a ballistic trajectory, it'll engage in direct fire like a tank.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.
Uses the same gun and ammunition of SPG-9, a recoilless launcher, again a weapon designed primarily for AT direct fire.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.
100mm rifled gun, engagement range well within 4km, direct fire most of the time.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.
 

SwordOfDarkness

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2021
Messages
1,874
Likes
8,757
Country flag
Most of the time 105mm of MPF won't shoot in a ballistic trajectory, it'll engage in direct fire.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.

Most of the time 105mm of MPF won't shoot in a ballistic trajectory, it'll engage in direct fire like a tank.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.

Uses the same gun and ammunition of SPG-9, a recoilless launcher, again a weapon designed primarily for AT direct fire.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.

100mm rifled gun, engagement range well within 4km, direct fire most of the time.
Doesn't fit my 1st definition, not an artillery.
Hmmm. Difference in opinion seems to come from your/my understanding of " ballistic or quasi-ballistic trajectory ". As I understand it, Ballistic trajectory is any trajectory of an object where it is guided only by gravity - As such, the angle of launch has nothing to do with it. Direct fire is also ballistic trajectory, for unpowered projectile.

Though it seems both you and I did have the same understanding of "what is an artillery", even if wording of the definition differed.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top