MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

[neo29]

total 780 fighters . have you forgotten 250 mig 21 that we have to retire ?? even some old jaguars will be retired and rest will be upgraded.

mutually assured destruction is no excuse not to match up to you enemy if u have the caliber.

I counted them in,plus the bisons are to serve till 2020 if you did your homework.

exactly dude. by 2020 either lca or mmrca shud be in place to retire the bisons. i said 250 mig 21 included in 780 fighters. hence we have to arrest the coming short fall and produce the new fighters fast. please use quote while replying.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

So she is there to promote the Viper! WoW!!! Thats an awesome sales pitch!

The PAKFA surely has given the folks at LM sleepless nights I guess

LM has always been the underdog in this entire competition irrespective of Pak-Fa or not.

 

[p2prada]

LM has always been the underdog in this entire competition irrespective of Pak-Fa or not.

Wrong. None of the fighters are underdogs. Just because a lot of the discussions are not available in print does not mean we can write any fighter off. The F-16 is by far the strongest contender and the only one with a 5th gen replacement program. You could say that Boeing is a weaker contender than LM, that's the reason they shout out their wares along with MiG.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Wrong. None of the fighters are underdogs. Just because a lot of the discussions are not available in print does not mean we can write any fighter off. The F-16 is by far the strongest contender and the only one with a 5th gen replacement program. You could say that Boeing is a weaker contender than LM, that's the reason they shout out their wares along with MiG.

I dont agree. LM will always remain underdog as pakistan will be operating F-16 B-52. Whether now or not, Pakistan will definitely try to convince an AESA platform from the US making the fighter even both for India and Pakistan. Hence there is very little possibility that IAF will go for a fighter which Pakistan already has experience in operating. Hence underdog.

 

[p2prada]

I dont agree. LM will always remain underdog as pakistan will be operating F-16 B-52. Whether now or not, Pakistan will definitely try to convince an AESA platform from the US making the fighter even both for India and Pakistan. Hence there is very little possibility that IAF will go for a fighter which Pakistan already has experience in operating. Hence underdog.

Pakistan has experience operating it. So What? The F-16s they have had till date are vintage. The Block 52s are also ancient compared to the block 60s that we are being offered. We will also be given really good surveillance equipment similar to EL/M-2060. The EW systems will also push us past the PAF systems. Also, PAF will not be getting the AIM-120D. They have the AIM-120C-5 version which is simply obsolete.

PAF will hate having to go against the same aircraft they have been flying especially if it's between 126 to 200 of them. Add F-35 to the package or even F-35 avionics and the deal is too good to ignore. Let's not forget that the F-35 will be the most advanced aircraft in operation for the next 30 years. PAF can never hope to match that. We will easily have the world's best WVR capability, Mig-29 and Viper.

And finally, we will get our hands on one of the most advanced engines in operation today.

 

[ppgj]

I dont agree. LM will always remain underdog as pakistan will be operating F-16 B-52. Whether now or not, Pakistan will definitely try to convince an AESA platform from the US making the fighter even both for India and Pakistan. Hence there is very little possibility that IAF will go for a fighter which Pakistan already has experience in operating. Hence underdog.

Q, F-16IN comes with the most powerful engine for a single engined aircraft. at 140+ kn, the thrust it produces is simply awesome. that also makes it carry an amazing amount of payload. the block 60 also carries a great EW suite and above all it is proven and a nimble fighter. there is simply no match for it in single engine category. though airframe is old and has reached saturation, the americans have kept it with upgrades particularly on the avionics side. it carries APG 80, which is the latest from NG. i, for one, have always considered it the dark horse of this contest.

as for pakistan, it does not matter if they have f-16's. point is what is inside it. china flies su-30mkk and j-11 is a variant of su-27. so did that stop us from su 30 mki?

only thing that holds india back from the US is their history with us on LCA/SEA KING HELIS, TOT/SOURCE CODE ISSUES and their congress apart from giving freebie f-16s and other hardwares to pakistan.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Pakistan has experience operating it. So What? The F-16s they have had till date are vintage. The Block 52s are also ancient compared to the block 60s that we are being offered. We will also be given really good surveillance equipment similar to EL/M-2060. The EW systems will also push us past the PAF systems. Also, PAF will not be getting the AIM-120D. They have the AIM-120C-5 version which is simply obsolete.

PAF will hate having to go against the same aircraft they have been flying especially if it's between 126 to 200 of them. Add F-35 to the package or even F-35 avionics and the deal is too good to ignore. Let's not forget that the F-35 will be the most advanced aircraft in operation for the next 30 years. PAF can never hope to match that. We will easily have the world's best WVR capability, Mig-29 and Viper.

And finally, we will get our hands on one of the most advanced engines in operation today.

Q, F-16IN comes with the most powerful engine for a single engined aircraft. at 140+ kn, the thrust it produces is simply awesome. that also makes it carry an amazing amount of payload. the block 60 also carries a great EW suite and above all it is proven and a nimble fighter. there is simply no match for it in single engine category. though airframe is old and has reached saturation, the americans have kept it with upgrades particularly on the avionics side. it carries APG 80, which is the latest from NG. i, for one, have always considered it the dark horse of this contest.

as for pakistan, it does not matter if they have f-16's. point is what is inside it. china flies su-30mkk and j-11 is a variant of su-27. so did that stop us from su 30 mki?

only thing that holds india back from the US is their history with us on LCA/SEA KING HELIS, TOT/SOURCE CODE ISSUES and their congress apart from giving freebie f-16s and other hardwares to pakistan.

No one is doubting the operational capabilities of F-16 IN. Atleast in this forum whether you agree or not all US fighters in MMRCA race are underdogs compared to Mig 35 or Rafale.

I am all for US fighters but then you will find a swarm of members iterating US non-reliability equation. F-16 weather you agree or not is definitely an underdog in MMRCA race atleast in people's opinion. There is an MMRCA poll here wasn't there? I remember seeing F-16's results were abysmal.

Again the definition of underdog is "some one or some thing which is least expected to win". It is definitely least expected to win no matter what technological twist you give it. APG-80 is not for ToT.

 

[ppgj]

Atleast in this forum whether you agree or not all US fighters in MMRCA race are underdogs

not only this forum. you go to any indian forum, you would see the same. does not make a diiference to the contest. ultimately it is the IAF and GOI who will decide and going by the recent history both are looking the US way!!!!

compared to Mig 35 or Rafale.

Russia and France have been very accomodative to india for a long time. their military relationship is proven and sanctions free. it is natural members vying for them. every member takes india's security to his heart. but as i said end of the day GOI/IAF are looking at US. hope they make sure the past history is not repeated.

I am all for US fighters but then you will find a swarm of members iterating US non-reliability equation. F-16 weather you agree or not is definitely an underdog in MMRCA race atleast in people's opinion. There is an MMRCA poll here wasn't there? I remember seeing F-16's results were abysmal.

valid concern. take LCA development. both Boeing/lockmart have played spoil sport. SeaKing heli could not get spares when needed. more than that tot/source code issues are still a question mark!!

Again the definition of underdog is "some one or some thing which is least expected to win". It is definitely least expected to win no matter what technological twist you give it.

infact going by the marketing both FA-18 and F-16 seem to be on top. the underdogs that way are Mig, Rafale.

APG-80 is not for ToT.

that would be a dampener.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

And you are height of pessimism



from where you came to knowl PAK FA is replacing MKI? which is supposed to get MLU.

Pak-Fa and MKI are of same weight class. Supposedly, Pak-Fa will out-perform MKI in every role. So it is common sense that Pak-Fa will take over MKI's role in the future hence a replacement.

MLU's are happening to existing MKI's. Will be interesting to see how many new MKI's will be inducted after Pak-Fa's induction. I figure it will not be many. Hence I say Pak-Fa will be MKI's replacement.

 

[ppgj]

If F-16 wins, it will be a huge surprise to many.

i have been saying (though it is not my choice) - F-16 is the dark horse. a few points -

1. proven.
2. agile.
3. carries top AESA and EW suite.
4. single engined but packs hell of a power.
5. amazing payload capability. fit to be a strike fighter.
6. being single engined, less maintainence.
7. one of the cheapest.
8. brings in Israel into the picture. we can alter F-16's to carry cheap but very effective israeli weapons.
9. india already has enough heavy fighters. they are looking for medium multi role a/c. F-16 fits it well.

i, for one, would not be surprised if it gets selected. as i have said before, i doubt american a/c winning but if they do, this is the one.

 

[nitesh]

Pak-Fa and MKI are of same weight class. Supposedly, Pak-Fa will out-perform MKI in every role. So it is common sense that Pak-Fa will take over MKI's role in the future hence a replacement.

MLU's are happening to existing MKI's. Will be interesting to see how many new MKI's will be inducted after Pak-Fa's induction. I figure it will not be many. Hence I say Pak-Fa will be MKI's replacement.

Qm MKI( induction is STILL going on ith last one supposed to come in 2013-2014 so are you trying to say MKI will be obsolete once PAK FA comes i.e. by 2015?

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

i, for one, would not be surprised if it gets selected. as i have said before, i doubt american a/c winning but if they do, this is the one.

You are confused. On one hand, you wont be surprised if F-16 wins and on the other you doubt that american a/c will win.

Now, I am not even sure whether you are supporting my claim or opposing it. My post regd F-16 was a reply to ahmedsid which i don't even remember now. I assume you did not get the context in which I was using the term underdog for F-16. Please let it go before the moderators kick us out for discussing this even more in pak fa thread

 

[ppgj]

Pak-Fa and MKI are of same weight class. Supposedly, Pak-Fa will out-perform MKI in every role. So it is common sense that Pak-Fa will take over MKI's role in the future hence a replacement.

MLU's are happening to existing MKI's. Will be interesting to see how many new MKI's will be inducted after Pak-Fa's induction. I figure it will not be many. Hence I say Pak-Fa will be MKI's replacement.

su 30 mki's are not going to be replaced atleast till 2018. only post FGFA arrival, the earliest su 30 mki's will start getting replaced.

india has for both training purposes and heightened security issues, has sucked every ounce out of many of them. so reasonable to expect the earliest ones getting replaced post MRCA induction and our own FGFA getting into production. it wont happen before 2018 considering the depleted squadron strength now.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Qm MKI( induction is STILL going on ith last one supposed to come in 2013-2014 so are you trying to say MKI will be obsolete once PAK FA comes i.e. by 2015?

Where did you get that from? I said its difficult for new MKI's wont be inducted anymore when Pak-Fa comes. I think IAF currently has 100+ MKI's. By 2015 the number may reach 200 and come to a stand-still. The eventual 280 figure might be compromised for Pak-Fa.

And regarding its role, I think a few years after Pak-Fa's induction, MKI will definitely have to give up its role as a front line fighter to MMRCA and Pak-Fa and I think it would become a dedicated bomber.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

su 30 mki's are not going to be replaced atleast till 2018. only post FGFA arrival, the earliest su 30 mki's will start getting replaced.

india has for both training purposes and heightened security issues, has sucked every ounce out of many of them. so reasonable to expect the earliest ones getting replaced post MRCA induction and our own FGFA getting into production. it wont happen before 2018 considering the depleted squadron strength now.

Again I am not sure whether you are supporting or opposing my post.

 

[ppgj]

Again I am not sure whether you are supporting or opposing my post.

i support that but some years down the line which is post 2018.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

i support that but some years down the line which is post 2018.

correct.

thanks

I really miss the comment part and thanks button of the other version of the forum. Now i have to reply post for a thanks

 

[nitesh]

Where did you get that from? I said its difficult for new MKI's wont be inducted anymore when Pak-Fa comes. I think IAF currently has 100+ MKI's. By 2015 the number may reach 200 and come to a stand-still. The eventual 280 figure might be compromised for Pak-Fa. And regarding its role, I think a few years after Pak-Fa's induction, MKI will definitely have to give up its role as a front line fighter to MMRCA and Pak-Fa and I think it would become a dedicated bomber.

And I am saying why induct MRCA for some time why not induct MKI in number (2-3 squadrons) and let PAK FA induction begins once PAK FA comes on line, MKI can be a bomb truck and and home defender with LCA while PAK FA carry the massacre

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

And I am saying why induct MRCA for some time why not induct MKI in number (2-3 squadrons) and let PAK FA induction begins once PAK FA comes on line, MKI can be a bomb truck and and home defender with LCA while PAK FA carry the massacre

A good economical idea. But unfortunately IAF is not willing to compromise MMRCA for MKI.

Why don't you mail the defence ministry about your economical policies.

 

[ppgj]

@QGM

i am trying to answer your F-16 question on the PAKFA thread.

You are confused. On one hand, you wont be surprised if F-16 wins and on the other you doubt that american a/c will win.

i won't be surprised because it fits the MRCA bill in every aspect. my doubts are because of TOT/Source code/AESA issues. what is the confusion here?

Now, I am not even sure whether you are supporting my claim or opposing it.

as for your 'underdog'observation, it is evident from my posts, i do not consider it as an underdog.

My post regd F-16 was a reply to ahmedsid which i don't even remember now.

post # 221 on PAKFA thread.

I assume you did not get the context in which I was using the term underdog for F-16.

it was about Sales Pitch of the LM in the MRCA contest. i said US is on top wrt marketing and considering their capabilities, they are not underdogs.