MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business

sayareakd

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I just don't understand how the MOD can insist that dassault is responsible for the work that HAL does.

How are the French supposed to agree to this. Are they supposed to send hundreds of engineers from Dassault to HAL Banglore and watch what the HAL engineers are doing ?

If the HAL assembly is not done correctly or Uses bad parts - is Dassault going to be responsible for that ?
RFI says so, they are suppose to read RFI and then apply for tender, you just cant change the terms of RFI at the end of shortlisting.

Then India has right to ask the second bidder to see what he says.

As per what you said about French response, now a days machining is done on CNC manchines, for that they have to sell the CNC and trained the HAL guys, that is all, if they dont do it, then what. Plus Rafale is saying Reliance will do it better then HAL :rofl: Relience has 0.00000000000000000000000000 experience in Defence, what to say of fighter aircraft. Only aircraft which Reliance have is the business jet used by its CEO.......:lol:
 

hello_10

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I just don't understand how the MOD can insist that dassault is responsible for the work that HAL does.

How are the French supposed to agree to this. Are they supposed to send hundreds of engineers from Dassault to HAL Banglore and watch what the HAL engineers are doing ?

If the HAL assembly is not done correctly or Uses bad parts - is Dassault going to be responsible for that ?
in fact, the way have 5th generation aircraft coming from 2020+, i would favor even F16, but having a new production line after tough negotiations, and then induction will start from at least 2017+, and training etc will also be needed for the first 3 years to master that bird.....

a long time before I said on the forums that Mirage2000-5mk2 was the only option for MRCA since 2007, rest of the trails etc was just useless..... IAF was very happy with 15 years of performance of Mirage2000H till then, pretty good it performed during Kargil 1999, they were only considering Mig29VOT till 2008....... now India would have the better one Mig35, or, buy the old Mirage2000-5 from France itself until production of PAK FA/FGFA starts, they are replacing them from Rafale nowdays :thumb:
 

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RFI says so, they are suppose to read RFI and then apply for tender, you just cant change the terms of RFI at the end of shortlisting.

Then India has right to ask the second bidder to see what he says.

As per what you said about French response, now a days machining is done on CNC manchines, for that they have to sell the CNC and trained the HAL guys, that is all, if they dont do it, then what. Plus Rafale is saying Reliance will do it better then HAL :rofl: Relience has 0.00000000000000000000000000 experience in Defence, what to say of fighter aircraft. Only aircraft which Reliance have is the business jet used by its CEO.......:lol:
Its one thing if you say to the French......you hire you own people in India or your own subcontractors in India and you then have total control over the entire operation.
Everything from training to setting up the manufacturing line is 100% Dassault responsibility.
The only condition being that it is manufactured and assembled in India....at least some major portion of it.

HAL is a 100% indepedent company that Dassault has no control over....but Dassault is held responsible for the final product if HAL screws up.

Come on guys......i dont care what the initial MMRCA contract says.....HAL has a reputation for screwing up.
This is simply not going to happen !!
 

WMD

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Forget abt MMRCA, the funds Dassault is squeezing from us for the Mirage-2000 upgrade will keep the company afloat.
GoI's decision ant upgrading old equipments with price tag higher than new ones will lead to many more scams.
The newest in that category is the Rs8000 crore upgrade of BMP-2s, with a price more than the original cost per unit.
 

sayareakd

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Its one thing if you say to the French......you hire you own people in India or your own subcontractors in India and you then have total control over the entire operation.
Everything from training to setting up the manufacturing line is 100% Dassault responsibility.
The only condition being that it is manufactured and assembled in India....at least some major portion of it.


HAL is a 100% indepedent company that Dassault has no control over....but Dassault is held responsible for the final product if HAL screws up.

Come on guys......i dont care what the initial MMRCA contract says.....HAL has a reputation for screwing up.
This is simply not going to happen !!
Contract says TOT so it is necessary that tax payers money will go in absorbing tech, not merely on assembling it, as Dassault will like to have it with Reliance. Plus it will allow Dassault to control tech and other issues.

HAL is already making SU 30 MKI, the idea is to have tech from Western countries so that we can attempt next generation AMCA on our own. We could have get Mig 35 tech at ease, Russians are dying to sell that to us.

So we have to make sure that tech would come to HAL, plus in doing so we have also to make sure that Dassault which is acting smart, dont screw up in the processes, they haven't sold a plane abroad, if they want to sell the plane they will accept our terms and conditions if they dont we will go to second best offer.

due to delay, we have option of buying more SU 30 MKI or super MKI.

Reliance is corrupt to the core, for the love of money they will sell fighter to China and Pakistan both, hardly anyone trust Reliance, except for its shareholders.
 

hello_10

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Its one thing if you say to the French......you hire you own people in India or your own subcontractors in India and you then have total control over the entire operation.
Everything from training to setting up the manufacturing line is 100% Dassault responsibility.
The only condition being that it is manufactured and assembled in India....at least some major portion of it.

HAL is a 100% indepedent company that Dassault has no control over....but Dassault is held responsible for the final product if HAL screws up.

Come on guys......i dont care what the initial MMRCA contract says.....HAL has a reputation for screwing up.
This is simply not going to happen !!

sir Rafale is a pretty competent 4++ aircraft but this deal looks like dead :wave:..... around $20billion for hardly '126' 4th generation aircraft, while PAK FA/FGFA is also in pipeline, would have their production starting from 2020+, for what India has already committed $35billion???? here, why to pay higher price for a 4++ aircraft if even lesser is needed for the 5th gen PAK FA/FGFA? we do know that Rafale is considered as the best Multi Role 4++ gen aircraft by many forums, true, but Mig35 with many 5th gen tech, with a more powerful AESA radar etc, is definitely better than a match than even the Mig29k, the IN is buying for its newest AC?????

A.K.Anthony has indicated that India will spend about $35 billion over the next two decades on the FGFA project and plans to induct 250-300 FGFA's starting

Defence Minister Finalizes Details of Crucial Defence Projects with Russia and Consolidates Military Ties - Defence Now

Rafale's manufactures need to know that along with so high price, if they will make noise on any other issue, this deal is now dead :wave: :wave: :wave:. they would get to know that Rafale is going to be a French aircraft only, hence limited opportunity for its upgrades without a big buyer like India which may extend its number to 189 also, as per the recent new... Mig29s belongs to early 80s while still its upgraded Mig35 is yet to come by next year. then how will they maintain expanses of upgrades of Rafale in future without India type big buyer, which doesn't have any other buyer????? (excluding a deal for hardly 10-12 for Switzerland which hasn't gone though yet....)

with that, I strongly believe that IAF would keep buying at least 12 Mig35 per year to cover the numbers to replace Mig21s, which is offered for hardly around $50 to $60million, full infrastructure present is India and Indian pilots have 30+ years experience on it, hence it may directly be taken to the border areas...... a high end 4++ aircraft, Mig35, which is regarded as better than a match to Chinese top gun J10s, and also its on the higher side with Pakistan's F16 block52, which doesn't even have AESA ........
 
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arnabmit

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In lay man terms, the ToT clause is for Dassault to monitor and teach HAL how to make the craft and how to do it right, in time and with efficiency. Dassault is now trying to evade the ToT clause.

Anyway, since the ToT clause was in the RFI & RFP both, if they had any problem then hey should not have applied for it in the first place. No point crying now.

Its one thing if you say to the French......you hire you own people in India or your own subcontractors in India and you then have total control over the entire operation.
Everything from training to setting up the manufacturing line is 100% Dassault responsibility.
The only condition being that it is manufactured and assembled in India....at least some major portion of it.

HAL is a 100% indepedent company that Dassault has no control over....but Dassault is held responsible for the final product if HAL screws up.

Come on guys......i dont care what the initial MMRCA contract says.....HAL has a reputation for screwing up.
This is simply not going to happen !!
 

hello_10

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In lay man terms, the ToT clause is for Dassault to monitor and teach HAL how to make the craft and how to do it right, in time and with efficiency. Dassault is now trying to evade the ToT clause.

Anyway, since the ToT clause was in the RFI & RFP both, if they had any problem then hey should not have applied for it in the first place. No point crying now.

thats the things, if they want this deal then take full responsibility of such a big deal, get the price and also full responsibility................. or, they would walk back before India say the same :thumb:
 

mattster

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In lay man terms, the ToT clause is for Dassault to monitor and teach HAL how to make the craft and how to do it right, in time and with efficiency. Dassault is now trying to evade the ToT clause.

Anyway, since the ToT clause was in the RFI & RFP both, if they had any problem then hey should not have applied for it in the first place. No point crying now.

You guys are "missing the forest for the trees".

Its okay to say that Dassault needs to train HAL and pass on some of the technology. (as in, no one is going to sell you engine technology). A timeline is set to accomplish that, and then HAL takes over.

But what they are really asking for is for Dassault to be responsible for the final product that HAL manufactures without any direct control of how HAL operates or runs. That sounds like "mission impossible".

But there is a bigger point that I want to make:

India needs to be practical, and put the needs of the IAF ahead of any politically-correct sounding concepts like "offset clauses", etc. If you want to develop fighter-aircraft manufacturing technology - then develop your own plane from scratch like the LCA, and start from the bottom of the chain. Thats what the whole LCA Mark-1 project is all about......the IAF does not really want it......its nothing more than a grand learning exercise, even if no one will ever admit it in public !!
Its the price India has to pay to join the club.

If you want to buy a state-of-the-art fighter like the Rafale, F-35, Eurofigter, etc.......then be flexible on the offset-clauses for TOT, and get the fighters into the hands of the IAF pilots as soon as possible.

Does TOT really give India any real technology ?
If TOT works so well......then why is it that an India which has been manufacturing frontline Su30-MKI and other Russian fighters for decades under TOT, takes 20 years to develop the LCA.

If TOT is really such a great idea - Heck, then HAL alone after decades of TOT experience with the Russians should have been able to design and manufacture the LCA by itself in less than 10 years without the need for ADA.
HAL can barely build its own trainer aircraft.


TOT is nothing more than the original manufacturer giving you his drawings, and helping you set up the manufacturing line to machine parts according to the spec in the drawings. All the super-critical components are manufactured by him, and shipped to you. He then helps you debug any problems in the manufacturing and assembly line, and testing of the aircraft subsystems until the process runs smoothly, and then he walks away.

None of this is going to transfer any significant "Design knowledge" to you, but you do get some of the manufacturing and process technology knowledge, and you create some good jobs for the local economy.
But that benefit has to be weighed against the immediate needs of the IAF.

The bottom line is that TOT is really nothing more than a glorified assembly operation.
 
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hello_10

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Mig35 is the most advanced version of Mig29s, which IN is currently buying for its newest Aircraft Carrier. with a very powerful AESA, and many 5th gen technologies, at a very low price as compare to other MRCA contesters..... with the fact that Indian Air Force has full training on it too, means it can straight be taken to the border areas after arrival of this bird, with already existing infrastructure of Mig29s in India........... I would favor a deal of at least 50 Mig35 to cover the delay of Rafale, which is delayed to an uncertain time to date.....

its also on the table that, why won't we straight go for 5th generation PAK FA/FGFA from 2018 onward, as compare to 4++ Rafale, which would also cost almost the same price???? but we also know that Rafale deal is not dead yet, as its a very good multi role aircraft...

I was favoring Mig35 on the ground that era of 4th generation aircrafts is on its end, you will now need 5th generation stealth aircraft to even deal with your neighbors as its likely that Pakistani will also have got J20 during 2020s. and till then, a high end 4++ aircraft like Mig35/Mig29VOT would be bought at the rate of 12 per year to 2016/17, if that will be the year when Rafale will be inducted. and if Rafale deal doesn't go through even till 2020, lets see, then you may then switch to PAK FA/FGFA from 2020 onward. but you do need to understand that MRCA deal is on place since 2007, in fact, and you haven't even finalized this deal to date :tsk:. I remember, even Mirage2000-5mk2 was on offer for this same MRCA in 2007, while even right now this deal is delayed, not expected to be signed by even 2014 :toilet:

=> I may repeat again, you will need a full infrastructure for either F15 SE or even Rafale, even if it does has few common parts/tech with Mirage2000H. but a high end 4++ aircraft like Mig35/Mig29vot is ready for service at the time of arrival, its nothing but an upgraded version of Mig29SMT being upgraded in russia right now, similar to Mig29k also, with many 5th gen technologies with a powerful AESA radar etc. its a simple calculation that keep buying 12 Mig35 every year at hardly $50million each, until arrival of Rafale is done :thumb:

=> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-fighter-squadrons-2022-a-100.html#post744260

I had to vote in the above thread but I couldn't as we still don't know the winner of M-MRCA yet :toilet:

and considering the facts of the above posts of mine, including the fact that Mig35 is undoubtedly superior than J10 and Pakistan's F16 block52 both which don't even have AESA radars etc, I think India would sign a deal of at least 37 Mig35 similar to Russia as below. as, with the rate of around 10 to 12 per year, for the price of hardly $50mil to $60mil, it may at least cover the gap of delays by Rafale, which would be delivered since 2017/18, the minimum expected time, even if this deal is signed next year. there is no alternative of this 4++ aircraft which may directly be taken to the border areas at the time of arrival, on which IAF personnel have over 30 years of experience :ranger:

=> РСК "МиГ" в июне подпишет контакт с Минобороны на поставку МиГ-35 | РИА Новости
 
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p2prada

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I just don't understand how the MOD can insist that dassault is responsible for the work that HAL does.

How are the French supposed to agree to this. Are they supposed to send hundreds of engineers from Dassault to HAL Banglore and watch what the HAL engineers are doing ?

If the HAL assembly is not done correctly or Uses bad parts - is Dassault going to be responsible for that ?
Sukhoi has no problems agreeing to such conditions, then why shouldn't Dassault.

Sukhoi has placed their supervisors in HAL who oversee and maintain the quality of work carried out by HAL. They don't needs hundreds of engineers for this.
 

p2prada

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I think India would sign a deal of at least 37 Mig35 similar to Russia as below.
Two squadrons of new jets is too small an order for IAF. It doesn't make sense either since the Mig-29UPGs will be phased out between 2025-30.

Any delays with Rafale would mean the production would be ramped up at a later date.

Any delays with the Super MKI program, LCA or even FGFA would mean exercising the option of 63 Rafale.

Further delays would means a fresh new contract for 40+ Rafales beyond the 189 contracted for.
 

hello_10

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Two squadrons of new jets is too small an order for IAF. It doesn't make sense either since the Mig-29UPGs will be phased out between 2025-30.

Any delays with Rafale would mean the production would be ramped up at a later date.

Any delays with the Super MKI program, LCA or even FGFA would mean exercising the option of 63 Rafale.

Further delays would means a fresh new contract for 40+ Rafales beyond the 189 contracted for.
actually, we would think about it for a batch of 50+, considering the complexity and delays of Rafale, i guess. but we do know that its not a new aircraft for IAF. they would already have upgraded Mig29SMT, so additional numbers would only have increased strength, i think :thumb:
 

p2prada

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actually, we would think about it for a batch of 50+, considering the complexity and delays of Rafale, i guess. but we do know that its not a new aircraft for IAF. they would already have upgraded Mig29SMT, so additional numbers would only have increased strength, i think :thumb:
Sorry, but there is no chance for Mig-35 in the IAF, even if Rafale is delayed. If the tender is canceled for some reason, then there is a possibility if there is a re-tender, or IAF may end up buying SH or even F-35 through the FMS route.

The presence of Mig-29UPG won't play a part in any IAF MRCA decision simply because the aircraft will in the process of phasing out while MRCA is inducted.

There won't be a hard and fast rule regarding deadlines for MRCA inductions. The IAF may want it done quickly, but a few years delay will be acceptable in exchange for a 40 year relationship.
 
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hello_10

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Sorry, but there is no chance for Mig-35 in the IAF, even if Rafale is delayed. If the tender is canceled for some reason, then there is a possibility if there is a re-tender, or IAF may end up buying SH or even F-35 through the FMS route.

The presence of Mig-29UPG won't play a part in any IAF MRCA decision simply because the aircraft will in the process of phasing out while MRCA is inducted.

There won't be a hard and fast rule regarding deadlines for MRCA inductions. The IAF may want it done quickly, but a few years delay will be acceptable in exchange for a 40 year relationship.

look, even if you are thinking to buy F16s or SH, its still good as compare to keep waiting for this deal which is in place since 2007. first Mirage2000-5mk2 was considered for the same while now its look like too late for even Rafale, as now we have got even 5th gen aircraft (FGFA) for the same price since 2020+ :toilet:

even if you sign this deal by 2014/15, it won't arrive before 2016/17, and then training etc for 3-4 years will again be needed. I do understand that Rafale was the best choice for this M-MRCA, expansive but it can't have any other issue with that, like the main article of this thread. otherwise bb :wave:

I do favor at least 189 Rafale, plus 40 for IAC-1 also, as when its production line will get matured, it will then be cheaper to have more of it, along with already trained IAF people on it too. similar to how SU30mki's number would reach 270.... we do know that the time Rafale will enter in service from 2018/20+, it will be the time of 5th generation aircraft. but still we may consider it as the front line aircraft till 2030.....

but i would repeat again, I would like to see at least '12' 4++ multi role aircraft every year until Rafale is arrived. i mean, do whatever you want, discuss as long as you want to for Rafale, but bring at least '12' Mig35 or F16IN or SH every year, to the year Rafale is arrived, to maintain the numbers. and I find Mig35 to be the cheapest in this regard, no training required with already present infrastructure of it, and superior to J10 or F16 block52 in either way of comparison :thumb:
 

p2prada

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but i would repeat again, I would like to see at least '12' 4++ multi role aircraft every year until Rafale is arrived. i mean, do whatever you want, discuss as long as you want to for Rafale, but bring at least '12' Mig35 or F16IN or SH every year, to the year Rafale is arrived, to maintain the numbers. and I find Mig35 to be the cheapest in this regard, no training required with already present infrastructure of it, and superior to J10 or F16 block52 in either way of comparison :thumb:
Like I said, one or two squadrons is of no use. Adding Mig-35 to the inventory will serve no purpose if Rafale is delayed even beyond 2020. Similarly no place for F-16/SH/F-35 as long as Rafale deal is progressing. It is not about being less expensive either. If cost mattered so much IAF would have gone for Gripen like the Swiss did or Mig-35.

It actually makes more sense to get additional 2 squadrons of MKI instead. The point is IAF does not want a Russian aircraft for MRCA.

However production will get ramped up if delays happen. The same thing happened with Scorpene. There was a three year delay. The sub was supposed to come to us at the rate of one a year from 2012 to 2018. But due to delays, production was ramped up to 2 subs a year and the delivery schedule was changed from 2015 to 2018 instead. Meaning the last sub will still make it in 2018 by setting up two production lines instead.

The same may happen with Rafale as it did for MKI. The 3 year MKI delay was negated with increased production. At first, the first 230 aircraft were supposed to be delivered by 2018 at 12/year, now it will happen by 2015 at 16/year. This allowed IAF to order 42 more and push production until 2018 for 272 birds. IAF did not buy more Mirage-2000s or Mig-29s due to the delays in MKI. The actual length of delays for MKI was 6 years, still there was no change. So don't expect anything beyond Rafale even if it is delayed beyond 2020. After all we have plans for 3 aircraft already with 4th in development. IAF won't bring in a 5th type regardless of how good the Mig-35 is.
 

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Any delay in Rafale is the fault of babus trying to take their cut. Any stopgap deal would cause the same. Just sign the damn thing so we can get to work = problem solved.
 

arnabmit

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Agree to be responsible for HAL built crafts, and the deal will be signed the very next day. We can't let France get away with the DCNS Scorpene type of mess again with Rafale.

Any delay in Rafale is the fault of babus trying to take their cut. Any stopgap deal would cause the same. Just sign the damn thing so we can get to work = problem solved.
 

Armand2REP

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Agree to be responsible for HAL built crafts, and the deal will be signed the very next day. We can't let France get away with the DCNS Scorpene type of mess again with Rafale.
Yeah, DCNS totally dropped the ball when babus stole the money for buying Scorpene materials package. :rolleyes:
 

arnabmit

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See... This is exactly the attitude of the french which led us to make the Rafale deal so stringent.

Yeah, DCNS totally dropped the ball when babus stole the money for buying Scorpene materials package. :rolleyes:
 

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