MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Spitfire9]

what do you guys think, will the rafeeel deal be signed this year ??

Instead of the MMRCA. 2.0 deal? If India opted to buy more Rafales as a straight purchase, that would be possible, wouldn't it? MMRCA 2.0 has not gone through the selection process yet, after which negotiations on making the selected aircraft in India would have to be completed, then that deal would need to be approved before an order could be placed. 2023 earliest IMO.

 

[Covfefe]

what do you guys think, will the rafeeel deal be signed this year ??

If the Chinese do some hanky panky after the said FM meet (that's their usual MO, aggression right after political peace talk), we may see some moving ahead

It's sometimes hilarious- Indians acting all surprised when Chinese do a military buildup at border. We make Pikachu faces as if something just happened which couldn't have been predicted- same during Kargil, same during Galwan. Act gullibly, then run pillar to post for spares, ammo, clothing and stuff. It's hilariously embarassing.

And btw, no matter how 'neutral' we are in the Ukrainian war, Russia won't supply us shit during an active conflict with China- during buildups it may, but once the bullets start to fly, forget any supply from Russia

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

One thing I don't understand instead of ordering 114 rafale ( which fulfilled all our requirements) why are we continuing this drama again despite knowing the results.

Since UPA came to power in 2004... the ministry of external affairs used defence deals as carrots to fix the western governments by wooing their defence companies.

As far as large imports are concerned... the ministry of defence is a hostage of the ministry of external affairs.

__________________________________________

Follow on order for Rafale won't come before the completion of existing contract... (as has been the custom in other deals)... the current Rafale contract would be completed only in Sept 2022 when all 36 aircraft will be installed with the India specific enhancements.

 

[maximus777]

I think we should simply double down on the desi options. In the short term, we will get our ass handed if there is a skirmish but it will serve us well for the future. We have 260ish MKIs + 36 Rafales and they should be sufficient to at least enforce a stalemate after taking bloody losses. Then there is always the Brahmos and the nukes if things get too close to comfort. But once Tejas descendants and AMCAs start rolling off the assembly lines later this decade or early next we should be ok.

 

[Spitfire9]

I think we should simply double down on the desi options. In the short term, we will get our ass handed if there is a skirmish but it will serve us well for the future. We have 260ish MKIs + 36 Rafales and they should be sufficient to at least enforce a stalemate after taking bloody losses. Then there is always the Brahmos and the nukes if things get too close to comfort. But once Tejas descendants and AMCAs start rolling off the assembly lines later this decade or early next we should be ok.

I see on (IDU) that the RFI announced just about 4 years ago is STILL under consideration! Is the system in India so slow that nothing can get done in acceptable time? How many more years to get through stage 2 of a multi-stage process?

Why was this hopelessly slow and inadequate system not ditched years ago? Never thought of copying how others
- request OEM's to furnish info
- evaluate
- request proposals
- evaluate?

 

[WolfPack86]

Indian Defence Updates : MRFA RFI Study

 

[Shuturmurg]

I don't think mmrca 2.0 will happen.

 

[MonaLazy]

RFI announced just about 4 years ago is STILL under consideration! Is the system in India so slow that nothing can get done in acceptable time? How many more years to get through stage 2 of a multi-stage process?

Why was this hopelessly slow and inadequate system not ditched years ago?

Because even as on paper it is "service before self"- when these decision-makers actually get to work it is always self first- most of them are wary of allegations of corruption which do more damage than the actual act stymying their service or political career. In the IAS which is GoIs babudom the safest policy then is to not make a decision at all and just pass it on to the next guy in.

At the organizational level too Indian defence procurement is broken as all projects ping-pong between various govt silos primarily MoD (Ministry of Defence) & MoF (Ministry of Finance)- the MRTT deal has been repeatedly shot down for high costs despite pressing requirements. The services themselves have their own issues- being in love with the process rather than the outcome (a former IAF chief famously wanted to patent the MMRCA process proud as they were of 10 years of moving files!). All problems inflicted on the country because of not possessing a spine. Now that she is baring teeth at China, suddenly these long winding processes & indeed why procure at all (as opposed to making things here) is now in sharp focus. Things will get better from here.

Historical perspective

Defence Procurement in India: A Historical Perspective | Manohar Parrikar Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

Defence procurement in India needs to adopt a mix of procurement avenues in which the indigenous solutions, foreign equipment and futuristic R&D continue together in a balanced manner. Considering that piecemeal solutions are not effective in the long term, there is a need to adopt a ‘Systems...

www.idsa.in

Present

https://www.orfonline.org/research/indian-defence-procurement-righting-the-ship/

What Ails Military Acquisition Programmes In India?

A step-by-step account of the problems with India’s military acquisition programmes

swarajyamag.com

World May Have Changed But India's Defence Procurement Regime Is Still a Bureaucratic Behemoth

Most defence equipment companies operating in India are agonised by complex procurement procedures, but what keeps them going is the size of the Indian market and the hope of high profits.

thewire.in

Opinion | What ails India's defence forces

More advanced militaries periodically transform themselves to conform to evolving technology and best management principles. China’s PLA and Japan’s military have achieved this. The Indian armed services, however, have been slow and often tardy

www.moneycontrol.com

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I don't think mmrca 2.0 will happen.

Why do you think MRFA will not happen?

 

[Flying Dagger]

Why do you think MRFA will not happen?

Because it doesn't exist... Just wet dreams.

A few more Rafale is the only thing possible from here ....

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Because it doesn't exist... Just wet dreams.

A few more Rafale is the only thing possible from here ....

Not as per our CAS and the project is very much alive.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Not as per our CAS and the project is very much alive.

 

[Spitfire9]

@MonaLazy - thanks. Will read later

Why do you think MRFA will not happen?

4 years to get RFI and evaluate, so far. How many years to get RFP and evaluate, choose a winner, negotiate cost? 2? 3? Then how many stages of approval before an order is put in the post to the selected OEM? 4,6,8? I get the impression that it will be 2025-2026 before a deal is signed. 1-2 years more to build assembly plant, equip, train people would mean production starting 2026-2028. IAF might get first 4G++ aircraft 2028-2030.

Given the timeline, why not dump MRFA and order loads of Tejas Mk2 and 36 more Rafale? It is not beyond the wit of man to knock out 20 Mk2 a year within 2-3 years of starting production. Possibly increase AMCA Mk1 order to 80?

 

[Super Flanker]

If India hypothetically selects SU-35 under MMRCA tender than I am pretty confident that we will build them in India in our SU-30 MKI Production lines (ofcource we will need to modify the line accordingly to build the Jets). I would say that SU-35 probably has the 3th best chance in this tender. It's definitely better than the MiG-35 and maybe even the Gripen.

By the way I heard some one say that SU-35 is not being offered under MMRCA anymore, is this true?

 

[Concard]

If India hypothetically selects SU-35 under MMRCA tender than I am pretty confident that we will build them in India in our SU-30 MKI Production lines (ofcource we will need to modify the line accordingly to build the Jets). I would say that SU-35 probably has the 3th best chance in this tender. It's definitely better than the MiG-35 and maybe even the Gripen.

By the way I heard some one say that SU-35 is not being offered under MMRCA anymore, is this true?

Fuck no, no more new Russian aircrafts in IAF. Russia as a country won't survive for long with it's present set up. We will be left in the lurch just like in the 1990's when USSR collapsed. Moreover, haven't we learnt our lesson with respect to operating Russian aircrafts? The availability of Russian aircrafts are low. Getting spare parts is a pain in the ass. Their engines are not at par with best in the world. So they need to undergo exhaustive maintenance way more frequently. They screwed us with Su-57 deal. We gave $300 million for R & D and they came up with a sub standard product. And in addition they wanted $30 billion to build 100 odd jets with no transfer of technology. Why the fuck we should prop up their declining military industrial complex?

Enough is enough, dependence on Russia is dangerous in the long term. It's better we invest that money into our own military industrial complex. Russians have milked us enough with aircraft carrier deal and with other items. Collaborating with them for missile tech like Brahmos, SFDR missiles is fine but no more dependence on them for strategic weapons like aircrafts, aircraft carriers, submarines etc.

 

[Flying Dagger]

If India hypothetically selects SU-35 under MMRCA tender than I am pretty confident that we will build them in India in our SU-30 MKI Production lines (ofcource we will need to modify the line accordingly to build the Jets). I would say that SU-35 probably has the 3th best chance in this tender. It's definitely better than the MiG-35 and maybe even the Gripen.

By the way I heard some one say that SU-35 is not being offered under MMRCA anymore, is this true?

We will raise our MKI to Su 35 standard and more that's the goal. In 2010 around yes... but now Su 57 is available so no point going that route now.


MMRCA was raised to diversify from Russian fighter jets and buy Mirage 2k

Rafale is at no. 1 there was no alternative politically from the beginning.

What didn't went well was the price ..

But now with Tejas I really don't feel need for Gripen etc but quick induction of more Rafales as stop gap.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

In 2010 around yes... but now Su 57 is available so no point going that route now.

Su-57 is a failed aircraft. IAF has rejected it.

 

[Shuturmurg]

Su-57 is a failed aircraft. IAF has rejected it.

Russia has only produced 5 serial production Su-57 till date. Its not a mature platforrm yet.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Russia has only produced 5 serial production Su-57 till date. Its not a mature platforrm yet.

Offcourse... They'll keep the initial product line low and once the engine radar etc are finalised and they have budget will start inducting then to replace old jets. That's how production line matures and move with a new jet allover the world.

Su-57 is a failed aircraft. IAF has rejected it.

Rejected it failed aircraft ?

By that logic Su 30 must be a super failure... well there was no logic anyway
Use the word wisely...

Design wise it's stealthier and manuverable than Rafale that we are buying.

What it lack is probably better avionics and engine for now which are in testing phases and developing.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Rejected it failed aircraft ?

By that logic Su 30 must be a super failure... well there was no logic anyway
Use the word wisely...

Design wise it's stealthier and manuverable than Rafale that we are buying.

What it lack is probably better avionics and engine for now which are in testing phases and developing.

Failed i.e. it is not even a halfway decent airplane if we consider the pricepoint vs capabilities. Russia itself doesnt care enough about it, they are using it as a learning curve and going for su 75 (Quite similar to how we are using Tejas N w.r.t. TEDBF).