MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[WolfPack86]

MoD to reexamine alternative indigenous option to the GE414 for Tejas program.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TeamAMCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

MoD to reexamine alternative indigenous option to the GE414 for Tejas program.

 

[WolfPack86]

India and the US drops plans to jointly develop a jet engine

Considered as one of the pathfinder projects under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) for the joint production of weapons between Indian and the USA have officially been discontinued after last round of talks held by The Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology in Wright Patterson Air Force Base at Ohio this year in June failed to provide any breakthrough in talks between both partners said the latest media report.

Both countries have decided to not hold more talks, due to serious differences which have emerged due to which both parties felt any further talks on Jet Engine Technology is unlikely to lead to any new breakthroughs.

US officials and GE officials which were part of The Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology have refused to transfer the core technology which the US considers as the crown jewel in the jet engine technology to India and rather was adamant to protect its years of research but were OK with transfer of technology for “cold engine” technology or local licence assembly of new engine which was proposed to power India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Another deal breaker was that Americans were not interested in helping fix issues with Kaveri engine but were more than happy to get full access to the project only to benchmark the engine technology developed by India to gauge the advancement made by India, which India had problems with.

French Aerospace engine maker “Safran” got unlimited access to the Kaveri engine which allowed them to provide consultation to fix technical issues which allowed them to clear it for fighter integration after carrying out an audit of the program. Americans wanted similar access to the program only to benchmark the engine which was not really gonna help the program in any way.

AMCA requires two 110kn thrust class of engines to power India’s first fifth-generation stealth multi-role fighter planned by DRDO. French Safran and Eurojet both have offered their engine technology to develop a new customized variant of their existing engine jointly with India which can be used to power AMCA.

American engine major General Electric till now had upper hand at the negotiating table with India due to its past association with India on providing engines to power LCA-Tejas MK1 and MK1A program which will also continue for Tejas MK-2 program.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMRCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[WolfPack86]

US is the most untrust worthy country in world never do defence deal with them.

 

[Kay]

With Denel not blacklisted anymore, IAF should consider this missile as an R73 replacement on the Russian fighters and a way to block more techs going towards PAK.

India does not have this class of missile. So, we hould be develop one. Even Brazil has developed Piranha missile used by Pakistan.

 

[Kay]

India and the US drops plans to jointly develop a jet engine

Considered as one of the pathfinder projects under the Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) for the joint production of weapons between Indian and the USA have officially been discontinued after last round of talks held by The Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology in Wright Patterson Air Force Base at Ohio this year in June failed to provide any breakthrough in talks between both partners said the latest media report.

Both countries have decided to not hold more talks, due to serious differences which have emerged due to which both parties felt any further talks on Jet Engine Technology is unlikely to lead to any new breakthroughs.

US officials and GE officials which were part of The Joint Working Group on Jet Engine Technology have refused to transfer the core technology which the US considers as the crown jewel in the jet engine technology to India and rather was adamant to protect its years of research but were OK with transfer of technology for “cold engine” technology or local licence assembly of new engine which was proposed to power India’s Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Another deal breaker was that Americans were not interested in helping fix issues with Kaveri engine but were more than happy to get full access to the project only to benchmark the engine technology developed by India to gauge the advancement made by India, which India had problems with.

French Aerospace engine maker “Safran” got unlimited access to the Kaveri engine which allowed them to provide consultation to fix technical issues which allowed them to clear it for fighter integration after carrying out an audit of the program. Americans wanted similar access to the program only to benchmark the engine which was not really gonna help the program in any way.

AMCA requires two 110kn thrust class of engines to power India’s first fifth-generation stealth multi-role fighter planned by DRDO. French Safran and Eurojet both have offered their engine technology to develop a new customized variant of their existing engine jointly with India which can be used to power AMCA.

American engine major General Electric till now had upper hand at the negotiating table with India due to its past association with India on providing engines to power LCA-Tejas MK1 and MK1A program which will also continue for Tejas MK-2 program.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMRCA/photos/?ref=page_internal

Sorry, US or no other country is at fault here. Maybe we should stop trying to take elusive shortcuts and start doing what really need to do - spend more on RnD - and stop expecting everything to be served on a platter.

 

[Kay]

US is the most untrust worthy country in world never do defence deal with them.

They did not breach any trust. Everyone has the right not to provide advanced technology - shame on us for expecting such technology as gifts.
Maybe we should spend more on RnD and stop whining.

 

[arya]

Guys any update on so called MMRCA 2 or it will suffer like army suffered after bofors no A guns for 20 years . Govt is thinking or not about IAF , is our AF making some noise that we need fighter planes .

 

[indus]

Guys any update on so called MMRCA 2 or it will suffer like army suffered after bofors no A guns for 20 years . Govt is thinking or not about IAF , is our AF making some noise that we need fighter planes .

This Govt wont wait for 20 yrs. I guess Govt will allow the dust settle down in current Rafale deal before moving ahead with the second phase.

 

[patriots]

Guys any update on so called MMRCA 2 or it will suffer like army suffered after bofors no A guns for 20 years . Govt is thinking or not about IAF , is our AF making some noise that we need fighter planes .

I think we may see a clear picture after election...iaf is pitching hard ..for jets

 

[arya]

This Govt wont wait for 20 yrs. I guess Govt will allow the dust settle down in current Rafale deal before moving ahead with the second phase.

i hope you are right otherwise we have to tell story to our kids

Once upon a time we had an air force ........

 

[Sancho]

Guys any update on so called MMRCA 2 or it will suffer like army suffered after bofors no A guns for 20 years . Govt is thinking or not about IAF , is our AF making some noise that we need fighter planes .

2015 - cancellation of MMRCA 1.0
2016 - EoI for SE MMRCA
2017 - approval of SE MMRCA under NDAs SP policy
2018 - re-issuing the tender as MMRCA 2.0

3 years already wasted and now decisions are pushed till after the elections in 2019.

 

[Sancho]

I think we may see a clear picture after election...iaf is pitching hard ..for jets

IAF wanted 126 Mirage 2000-5 in a G2G deal, got MRCA tender
IAF wanted 126 MMRCA, got 36 Rafales
IAF wanted FGFA, gets LCA MK2
IAF wanted SE MMRCA RFI last year, got MMRCA 2.0 RFI this year

IAF is desperate for fighters, but certainly doesn't get what they want or need to defend the country.

 

[Sancho]

1. Gripen E & EF will be rejected because of Finmeccanica components.
2. Mig 35 will be rejected due to lack interest of IAF.
3. F16 has no future. So it will be rejected.
4. Rafale will be rejected unless there is significant price cut.
5. F18 - ToT from america will be big issue.

If Denel can buy itself out of blacklisting, why shouldn't be the same possible for Leonardo? Secondly, there is still the question if Saab is offering Gripen E with Leonardo parts, or without. Not to mention that if the RFI was sent to EF, there doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

I agree to the Mig, I always said that the only way for Russians would be, to offer the fighter with Uttam and Kaveri. That's a level of Indian customization no other vendor offers. But Russians doesn't seem to be interested in playing it smart.

Hopefully F16 will be rejected, worst choice for us for sure, to buy a fighter the enemy knows inside out.

Rafale shouldn't had been invited simply by the fact that Dassault blocked the initial MMRCA, but it is one of the best fighters, that as you correctly pointed out, comes at a high price.

F18s main problem is flight performance, if they can show other advantages (costs, support for AMCA development and navalisation, joined engine development, smart choice of Indian industrial partners, political benefits), they can come around. They certainly have a much higher chance now, than in the original MMRCA tender.

 

[Prashant12]

If Denel can buy itself out of blacklisting, why shouldn't be the same possible for Leonardo? Secondly, there is still the question if Saab is offering Gripen E with Leonardo parts, or without. Not to mention that if the RFI was sent to EF, there doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

Denel was removed from blacklisting after 13 years of Investigations and could find no evidence. And India has not purchased single product from the company.

Leonardo is still under Investigations and will remain so for many more years. Specifically with names of Christian Michel still going on.

Saab is offering Gripen E with Raven ES-05 AESA which is manufactured buy Leonardo. Also now that IAF is committed to 123 LCA MK1 & 201 LCA Mk2, together 324 there no chance of another single engine fighter.

IF RFI was sent to EF then they will have offer EF without Leonardo components which is not possible and same rules applies to Saab. Saab was initially planning to offer Gripen E with indigenous Gallium Nitride based radar but it still under development.

F18s main problem is flight performance, if they can show other advantages (costs, support for AMCA development and navalisation, joined engine development, smart choice of Indian industrial partners, political benefits), they can come around. They certainly have a much higher chance now, than in the original MMRCA tender.

Reality of so called 'Joint Engine Development':

At its last meeting in July, DTTI’s jet engine working group was shut down for lack of progress.

It’s obvious that GE will not part with its crown jewel having spent billions in R&D. As someone said, “it’s the one thing the company has”. GE executives saw it as a compromise of their intellectual property to even suggest improvements in an indigenous Indian engine (Kaveri).

https://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.com/letterfromwashington/22-should-finally-yield-4/

They certainly have a much higher chance now, than in the original MMRCA tender.

Political benefits ? Sure.:biggrin2:

Top Congress leader met US arms companies before Rafale storm arrived?
https://www.mynation.com/news/rafal...ndra-modi-modi-government-congress-bjp-pedqc5

Did Indian politicians meet European aircraft-makers in Germany to malign Modi, Rafale deal?

https://www.mynation.com/news/naren...germany-indian-politician-social-media-pfv3hm

 

[Sancho]

India does not have this class of missile.

That's the point, we are using R73, Assram, MICA, Python V and the R73s have to be replaced soon. A Darter could be a useful and modern replacement and at the same time could block one option to our enemies.

 

[Sancho]

Denel was removed from blacklisting after 13 years of Investigations and could find no evidence

Not exactly, they were removed after a settlement agreement was finalised and under a financial loss.

Leonardo is still under investigation, but if the fact that an RFI was requested for the EF shows, that the ban of Leonardo itself, does not seem to effect products of other vendors, or provided by other vendors (Airbus is the leading partner in the MMRCA tenders).

Saab is offering Gripen E with Raven ES-05 AESA which is manufactured buy Leonardo.

That's not correct, since Saab has offered a jointly developed GaN based AESA radar for LCA as well and the same would be a logical choice for a Gripen E proposal for India.

Political benefits ? Sure.:biggrin2:

- permanent seat in the UNC, not possible without the US
- approval of high tech arms and techs for India, drones, F35, catapult technology, not available so far
- or just see the political effects that the 123 pact had

We are closing in towards the US for some time, but this government has increased the pace, by joining more contracts and distancing themselves from Russia, which shows the aim on political benefits. But just as Russia (Mig 29K, Ka31 for carrier), the US will force a major deal in return, for their support, the question is only which one?

 

[Immanuel]

MoD to reexamine alternative indigenous option to the GE414 for Tejas program.

#Fake News

2 or more GE F414 INS6 engines have already been delivered to HAL for Tejas MK-2

 

[Prashant12]

Not exactly, they were removed after a settlement agreement was finalised and under a financial loss.

Fact Check:

Charges of corruption in the news reports could not be validated during a subsequent CBI inquiry, leading it to file a closure case in 2014.

Formal orders to take Denel off the blacklist were issued on Wednesday, bringing an end to a 13 year exile for the company from the world’s largest market for military imports. While it was cleared of all charges in 2014, it was unable to restart work in the lucrative arms market as legal proceedings were on for several past deals where India had frozen or encashed its bank guarantees.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...settlement-agreement/articleshow/65709932.cms

Leonardo is still under investigation, but if the fact that an RFI was requested for the EF shows, that the ban of Leonardo itself, does not seem to effect products of other vendors, or provided by other vendors (Airbus is the leading partner in the MMRCA tenders).

Fact is Leonardo is blacklisted and It will big politcal scandal to acquire EF after serious allegations :

Sales Director of a big company of fighter aircraft's met five senior leaders of two diffrent parties to raise the Rafale issue to malign the image of govt & @narendramodi so that both company/weapon dealer & political party is benefited if the deal gets cancelled.plz find out



Sources: Hamburg (germany), where first meeting took place in last week of august this year. Sales Director of fighter aircraft company & senior leader, accompanied by two others,met for hours to raise Rafale issue as a scam.

That's not correct, since Saab has offered a jointly developed GaN based AESA radar for LCA as well and the same would be a logical choice for a Gripen E proposal for India.

LCA will getting Uttam Radar or Israeli radar which already emerged as L1.

IAF is buying 324 single engine Tejas fighters, so no question of another single engine in the name of F16/Gripen E

Also Saab has teamed up with adani group.:biggrin2:

- permanent seat in the UNC, not possible without the US
- approval of high tech arms and techs for India, drones, F35, catapult technology, not available so far
- or just see the political effects that the 123 pact had

UNC is not possible without china support.
India has not shown any interest in F35.
No progress in catapult.

Nobody in india is going buy these excuses.

 

[Sancho]

Fact Check:

Lol fact checking by ignoring the first paragraph?

Arms manufacturer Denel has been taken off an Indian defence ministry blacklist after the South African company signed a settlement agreement that waived off almost $ 100 million that it would have been entitled to following arbitration proceedings.

LCA will getting Uttam Radar or Israeli radar which already emerged as L1.

Uttam is not under consideration for MK1A, since it's only under development so far. It will be an option only for future upgrades of IOC/FOC LCAs

IAF is buying 324 single engine Tejas fighters, so no question of another single engine in the name of F16/Gripen E

As IAF constantly confirms, LCA is not as capable as MMRCAs and it needs high tech fighters on top of it, Air Chief Dhanoa even confirmed that SE MMRCAs have priority for IAF, so there is no relation between LCA and MMRCAs, IAF needs both.