MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

Flying Dagger

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With Admiral Gorshkov (INS Vikramadatya) deal we were forced to buy Russian jet. That was a clause for the deal and one of the reason why they initially charged us less for the ship.

Neither Russia nor US will allow F-35B on INS Vikramadatya.

USAF itself is not getting more F-22s.
There was no such clause initially we opted for 16 of Mig29 k and their improved performance made IN opt for more of those for second carrier too.

But the second carrier got delayed and the issues popped up with the airframe of mig 29 k and also the exposure to American system made IN realise how far behind the jet is in avionics and modern weaponry. Though it was upgraded but still fall short in comparison to a SH or Rafale.
 

Flying Dagger

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He said "rafale also has longer range than all the competitors." A list that included F-15EX which has significantly longer range than Rafale or anyone else on that list.
The list didn't included F-15 as it was never an option in original competition.
 

JBH22

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There was no such clause initially we opted for 16 of Mig29 k and their improved performance made IN opt for more of those for second carrier too.

But the second carrier got delayed and the issues popped up with the airframe of mig 29 k and also the exposure to American system made IN realise how far behind the jet is in avionics and modern weaponry. Though it was upgraded but still fall short in comparison to a SH or Rafale.
Afaik unit cost of Mig 29K circa USD 35Mio vs Rafale circa USD 170Mio. Price speak for itself.
Can a country like India afford to lose toys priced at such exorbitant sum. Factor in how rafale are pampered in hanger etc. Mig 29K are just thrown out on tarmac.
 

Flying Dagger

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Afaik unit cost of Mig 29K circa USD 35Mio vs Rafale circa USD 170Mio. Price speak for itself.
Can a country like India afford to lose toys priced at such exorbitant sum. Factor in how rafale are pampered in hanger etc. Mig 29K are just thrown out on tarmac.
That cost will reduce though for an aesa equipped one the cost will be around 40+

For airforce we need something like Mig 29/35 in numbers for interception etc.

But navy which can carry only 20+ jets in its aircraft carrier would rather invest in something best of the line.

Having said that if they are serious about teddy I think Migs can do the work or may be one sqd worth Rafale as airforce already have it and if needed can be transferred to them.
 

WolfPack86

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Selected OEM for multi-role fighter aircraft programme will have to ensure tech transfer: IAF Chief
New Delhi, Jun 27 (PTI) The winner of the Indian Air Force’s mega project to procure 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) will have to ensure the transfer of technology as it would be implemented under the framework of the ‘Make-in-India’ initiative, Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari has said.

He said the procurement of the MRFAs will augment the IAF’s fighter strength and enable it to induct the advanced technologies that the force “urgently desires” to execute its operational plans more effectively.

In April 2019, the IAF issued an RFI (Request for Information), or initial tender, to acquire 114 jets at a cost of around USD 18 billion (one billion is equal to 100 crore). It was billed as one of the world’s biggest military procurement programmes in recent years.

The top contenders for the multi-billion dollar deal include Lockheed Martin’s F-21, Boeing’s F/A-18, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian aircraft MiG 35 and Swedish aerospace giant Saab’s Gripen jet.

“While the entire process will be executed under the provisions of the DAP (Defence Acquisition Procedure) 2020, the selected OEM (Original Equipment Maker) will have to comply with our requirements of transfer of technology and Make-in-India that would add to our indigenous fighter aircraft manufacturing capability,” the chief of Air Staff told PTI in an interview.

He said the IAF has already received responses from multiple vendors to its RFI.

“The procurement of the MRFA through the Make-in-India route will augment our fighter strength and enable us to induct advanced technologies that we urgently desire to execute our operational plans more effectively,” Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari said.

Asked about concerns that the IAF is not going to reach the sanctioned strength of 42 fighter squadrons in the next 10-15 years and whether it would impact the force’s combat capabilities, he said a “two-pronged” strategy is being adopted towards maintaining its strength that involves induction of new generation platforms and up-gradation of the existing fleet.

“Various approaches are ongoing under the ‘Make-in-India’ initiative to realise this within the budget forecasts.

“Improvements in technological capability and increase in the numerical strength require persistent efforts and involve long drawn processes with necessary financial support,” he said.

The IAF chief said the force development has to be critically harmonised with the envisaged threats and available financial outlay to factor in the time-bound build-up of requisite human resources and support infrastructure.

Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari said procurement of 114 jets under the MRFA project and acquisition of 83 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will help the IAF significantly enhance its combat prowess.

He also referred to the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

India is also working on an ambitious USD 5 billion project to develop a fifth-generation medium-weight deep penetration fighter jet to significantly bolster its air power capability.

“The IAF endeavours to build up its operational capabilities through planned inductions of LCA variants, MRFA and AMCA in a phased manner,” the chief of Air Staff said.

“The IAF also perceives the distinct need for the induction of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft. The DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) has commenced development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA),” he added.

Air Chief Marshal Chaudhari further said the IAF is providing active support to the DRDO in this programme.

The number of squadrons of the IAF is going down gradually because of the phasing out of old aircraft.

The chief of Air Staff said the IAF aims to enhance its operational capabilities through the induction of modern technology and by ensuring better serviceability and availability of its assets, adding the coming years would demand more rigorous, regular and realistic training in multi-domain warfare.

“Our focus on ‘Atmanirbharta’ (self-reliance) should promote indigenisation and innovation at all levels leading to higher self-reliance,” he said.

“Agility in thought and action through seamlessly integrated command and control structures should provide us with enhanced responsiveness and lethality,” he said. PTI MPB DV DV
 

Wisemarko

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Selected OEM for multi-role fighter aircraft programme will have to ensure tech transfer: IAF Chief
Dassault is refusing to even share tech with Airbus when Airbus is 66% partner in FCAS:
From Dassault Chief:
“The first one was the leadership of Dassault in the architecture of the future fighter, the second is that the flight control system is for us not to share,” the executive said. “These were the two red lines.”
If you think anyone is going to share real tech, it's a lie.
 

MirageBlue

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Dassault is refusing to even share tech with Airbus when Airbus is 66% partner in FCAS:
From Dassault Chief:
“The first one was the leadership of Dassault in the architecture of the future fighter, the second is that the flight control system is for us not to share,” the executive said. “These were the two red lines.”
If you think anyone is going to share real tech, it's a lie.
We don't need technology transfer for how the FBW FCS was built or it's source code. That is the DNA of the jet and won't be handed over by anyone. IMHO it may not be necessary either, since the fundamental capabilities of the fighter bought as MRFA should have been set including anything that will result in having to modify the FCS (for e.g. air to air refueling).

The IAF and the agency building the fighter will need to know :
-how to maintain the type without having to go back to the OEM, which will in itself be a LOT of information, tools, test benches, etc. that needs to be shared
-be able to integrate & test some weapons of it's choice for which it will need
-be able to maintain and update the threat libraries
-get source codes for things like the weapons computer, radar, mission computer, EW suite, etc. which will allow the IAF to constantly update the fighter's databases and possibly even upgrade it

There is no way that we will be free from needing the OEM's support once and for all. They have designed the fighter and will always retain technologies & design know-how that will not be shared or cannot be shared because it resides in the minds of people that worked on them.
 

Fonck83

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Announcing MRO for commercial engines, French aircraft engine maker Safran plans to move on to military engines in India in the near future. For its dual engine fighter proposal, the business has also volunteered to work with DRDO on the development of 110 KN thrust military engines.

As part of its offset commitments, Safran, a prominent manufacturer of commercial aircraft engines, is preparing to announce the opening of an MRO facility in India for its LEAP commercial aircraft engines. When Safran CEO Olivier Andres meets with Indian Civil Aviation Minister JyotiradityaScindia tomorrow, the MRO facility will reportedly be confirmed.

To set up a state of the art MRO facility, the Indian subsidiary route will be used to service about 330 engines from Indian commercial carriers as well as Safran-GE joint venture engines from nations in South Asia, West Asia, and Africa. As part of the “Atmanirbhar Bharat” initiative, SAFRAN proposes to invest USD 150 million in the facility to support MRO of military engines currently utilised in Indian Air Force Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets. The Indian Air Force has purchased 26 Rafale multi-role fighters from the French firm, which is also India’s leading helicopter engine provider.

Additionally, the French company has submitted a proposal to the Indian government for the development of a new state-of-the-art 110 kilo newton thrust engine for India’s futuristic advanced medium combat aircraft twin-engine AMCA fighter project with the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) at the Department of Research and Development (DRDO).

According to a defence expert, the cost per engine for 400 engines will be 10-12 million euros, which is what we already spend for engines. If we have 6-7 squadrons, we’ll need 400 engines to power our twin-engine AMCAs. The expert went on to say that you’ll probably need more.

To protect US national security and advance US foreign policy objectives, the ITAR is a US regulatory regime that restricts and controls the export of defence and military-related technologies. The Safran offer is not subject to the ITAR. So the proposed Safran-GTRE joint venture can sell military engines to third countries without having to comply with any restrictions.

If the co-development procedure is approved this year, the French business expects the new 110 KN engine to be certified by 2035. The 110 KN engine’s co-development will cost between five and six billion euros in total.

However, the DRDO is also considering using the GE-414 engine as an alternative to power the AMCA project, but Safran’s offer includes performance guarantees and the transfer of all necessary technology for the design, development, production, and support of aero-engines in India.

It was originally designed to power Tejas LCA fighters, however the GTRE has been working on the Kaveri engine since 1996. LCA engines now use GE-404 engines, which are no longer tied to Tejas.
 

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