MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Wisemarko]

Buy the Rafale because the Air Force already operates it. You buy anything American and you are enslaving yourself to the Federal Reserve System. "Buy the cheapest and go forth" is an idiotic way of thinking and guarantees failure.

The world seems idiotic in front of your supreme intelligence

 

[Flying Dagger]

I completely agree with Wisemarko. India does not need the best 4.5 gen fighter out there to counter Pak and China. What they need is a large enough number of fighters to fill all the squadrons,
and get rid of all the old MIGs. Even if the Rafale is the best fighter in terms of overall performance, but if the price of the Gripen/F18 is much lower that of a Rafale, then buy the Gripen/F18. Plus, the IAF needs a mainstay fighter that is cheap to maintain and preferably can be fully built in India. The only justification to buy Rafale would be if the overall long-term maintenance cost is significantly lower, given that India already operates the aircraft.

Also, its time for Indians to forget about the old sanctions that the US put on India in the past. In a bi-polar world with the US and China as the primary strategic rivals; the old Cold War equation no longer applies.
The US is not going to be stupid enough to sanction India even if there are differences, when India stands as biggest player in Asia directly confronting an increasingly aggressive and hegemonic China. No other country in Asia can bring that kind of capability to bear.

The "Enemy of your enemy is your Friend" Rule definitely applies here.

We already have an aircraft capable enough to fill the squadron gap.

It's already in production HF- XX "Tejas" which is good enough for Western sector against Porks.

We have already paid for Rafale and another batch of 36-54 will cost far less. Though overall this will be an expensive affair .

Gripen was indeed more economical but we didn't went for it and now it's done and dusted.

 

[Shuturmurg]

We already have an aircraft capable enough to fill the squadron gap.

It's already in production HF- XX "Tejas" which is good enough for Western sector against Porks.

We have already paid for Rafale and another batch of 36-54 will cost far less. Though overall this will be an expensive affair .

Gripen was indeed more economical but we didn't went for it and now it's done and dusted.

When rafale was selected Gripen-E was still in testing stage. Also, I read somewhere IAF wanted a nuke delivery platform and rafale supports that and also has longer range than all the competitors.

 

[Wisemarko]

rafale also has longer range than all the competitors.

Factually incorrect information.

 

[Fonck83]

Bonjour Rafale! French Dassault Fighters 'Inch Closer' To Winning Indian MRFA Fighter Jet Deal - Experts

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly planning to halve its fighter jet procurement program, reducing the number of warplanes to 57 from 114. According to reports, the anticipated $20 billion Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) program will most likely be carried out under the Indian...

eurasiantimes.com

Colonel Ajai Shukla (Retd), a columnist and commentator previously told the EurAsian Times, “The IAF is already operating seven different types of fighter aircraft, which leads to multiple logistical hurdles. These challenges relate to spare management, repair and overhaul, and operational support. Given this, acquiring yet another type of fighter is compound an already big challenge. From that perspective, choosing the Rafale, which the IAF already operates, would not create additional logistical problems.”

File Image: Rafale Marine Fighter
Likewise, former Air Marshal P.K Barbora underlined the French firm’s reliability and said, “IAF has been satisfied with the deal of the Mirage 2000 and the upgrade of the Mirage 2000.

Although cost is high, reliability is very good compared to the other aircraft fleet that we have, they have not let us down. The IAF doesn’t want to have too many different kinds of eggs in its basket.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Year 2059.
MMRCA 2.0 - IAF planning to cut shot jets from 114 to 108. This time F-35, F-22 (Retired Airframe), SU-57 MKI, J-20 IN are in the race. MIG 21 completed 100 Years of flying with special flying by our defense minister Rahul Gandhi . IAF also planning to buy them under Make in India scheme.

 

[Shuturmurg]

Year 2059.
MMRCA 2.0 - IAF planning to cut shot jets from 114 to 108. This time F-35, F-22 (Retired Airframe), SU-57 MKI, J-20 IN are in the race. MIG 21 completed 100 Years of flying with special flying by our defense minister Rahul Gandhi . IAF also planning to buy them under Make in India scheme.

This is unrealistic scenario. Rahul Gandhi would never take up any post below Prime Minister.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

This is unrealistic scenario. Rahul Gandhi would never take up any post below Prime Minister.

We have Arvind Kejruddin as our PM. Hence this compromise by Rahul Baba, He need to follow his father's swedish legacy so he will terminate Tejas MK2 and buy Gripen - NG under swedish quota.

 

[johnj]

Bonjour Rafale! French Dassault Fighters 'Inch Closer' To Winning Indian MRFA Fighter Jet Deal - Experts

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is reportedly planning to halve its fighter jet procurement program, reducing the number of warplanes to 57 from 114. According to reports, the anticipated $20 billion Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) program will most likely be carried out under the Indian...

eurasiantimes.com

Colonel Ajai Shukla (Retd), a columnist and commentator previously told the EurAsian Times, “The IAF is already operating seven different types of fighter aircraft, which leads to multiple logistical hurdles. These challenges relate to spare management, repair and overhaul, and operational support. Given this, acquiring yet another type of fighter is compound an already big challenge. From that perspective, choosing the Rafale, which the IAF already operates, would not create additional logistical problems.”

File Image: Rafale Marine Fighter
Likewise, former Air Marshal P.K Barbora underlined the French firm’s reliability and said, “IAF has been satisfied with the deal of the Mirage 2000 and the upgrade of the Mirage 2000.

Although cost is high, reliability is very good compared to the other aircraft fleet that we have, they have not let us down. The IAF doesn’t want to have too many different kinds of eggs in its basket.

eurasiantimes similar to idrw, I don't consider both site.
IAF consider upto 180 EU jets 4.5gen, then 6th and goes on, may be Su57mki also.
IAF always find some reason to buy foreign items.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

eurasiantimes similar to idrw, I don't consider both site.
IAF consider upto 180 EU jets 4.5gen, then 6th and goes on, may be Su57mki also.
IAF always find some reason to buy foreign items.

We have AMCA no need for Su-75.
Su-75 is the greatest threat to AMCA.
Why should IAF consider upto 180 EU jets? 114 is more than enough.
We have our indigenous developed aircraft.
We need to get out of import mentality.

Remember for GoI defense procurement is nothing more than a Strategic tool.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

We already have an aircraft capable enough to fill the squadron gap.

It's already in production HF- XX "Tejas" which is good enough for Western sector against Porks.

We have already paid for Rafale and another batch of 36-54 will cost far less. Though overall this will be an expensive affair .

Gripen was indeed more economical but we didn't went for it and now it's done and dusted.

When rafale was selected Gripen-E was still in testing stage. Also, I read somewhere IAF wanted a nuke delivery platform and rafale supports that and also has longer range than all the competitors.

The advantage F-15 and Gripen is that they are offering AESA jammer. This is one of the prime requirement of of IAF. IAF is planning to incorporate Israeli ELL-8251SB Scorpius in Rafale and MKI with advent of PL-15 BVR in PAF and PLAAF.

 

[johnj]

We have AMCA no need for Su-75.
Su-75 is the greatest threat to AMCA.
Why should IAF consider upto 180 EU jets? 114 is more than enough.
We have our indigenous developed aircraft.
We need to get out of import mentality.

Remember for GoI defense procurement is nothing more than a Strategic tool.

"We" is a big word and if you take some part, you get 1.us, 2.iaf, 3.goi
Here I'm talking about iaf, not ''we''
Nobody care about ''we''
So, iaf, IAF want up to 180 EU jet, 126 plus additional, a requirement of 2004.
Now after 36 mrfa, new 114 mrfa, total 150.
If you consider mki, initial requirement was 150 jets, now 250 plus.
Once a local production unit/plant gets set up, the number goes up, and setting up/building a production line is very expensive. Iaf need 350 plus medium jets in near future- aMca, lca mk3 Mwf, mMrca[mrfa].
Indigenous developed aircraft - its future depends on ada, drdo and hal, if they can do their job in time, goi/iaf can buy them, for ex, lca took 6+ years for ioc to foc and lch still don't have its main weapon, atgm.
Su 75 have little chance/no chance in IAF, may be for su57mki, iff Russia able to make 5th gen engine.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

"We" is a big word and if you take some part, you get 1.us, 2.iaf, 3.goi
Here I'm talking about iaf, not ''we''
Nobody care about ''we''

Who is 'we'? We is an amalgamation of IAF, MoD and GoI in short Republic of India.
Everybody cares about we. IAF doesn't operate in isolation.

So, iaf, IAF want up to 180 EU jet, 126 plus additional, a requirement of 2004.

IAF has made it clear. Its requirement is of additional 114 aircraft. IAF has never said it wants EU jets. GoI will chose jets that suit Indian requirement taking in account recommendation from IAF.

If you consider mki, initial requirement was 150 jets, now 250 plus.

Don't mix 2 different programs.

Once a local production unit/plant gets set up, the number goes up, and setting up/building a production line is very expensive. Iaf need 350 plus medium jets in near future- aMca, lca mk3 Mwf, mMrca[mrfa].

What is Tejas Mk. 3? Their has been a sincere push for locally developed and manufactured systems. If you keep importing such systems you can't never win a against PRC. Local development and productions is the only way ahead.

Indigenous developed aircraft - its future depends on ada, drdo and hal, if they can do their job in time, goi/iaf can buy them, for ex, lca took 6+ years for ioc to foc and lch still don't have its main weapon, atgm.

Its not so easy. Their is a huge obstacle for indigenous systems from all corners. Even for leader like Modi it is difficult to promote local systems. Import lobby is very strong in India and will do anything to subdue local products.

Su 75 have little chance/no chance in IAF, may be for su57mki, iff Russia able to make 5th gen engine.

Never under-estimate the import lobby. They won't mind selling the nation to fill their coffers.

 

[johnj]

IAF has made it clear. Its requirement is of additional 114 aircraft. IAF has never said it wants EU jets. GoI will chose jets that suit Indian requirement taking in account recommendation from IAF.

IAF already said it need 150 plus mmrca and still asking for new jets.

Who is 'we'? We is an amalgamation of IAF, MoD and GoI in short Republic of India.
Everybody cares about we. IAF doesn't operate in isolation.

In that case ''we'' doing a great job by buying jets.

Don't mix 2 different programs.
What is Tejas Mk. 3? Their has been a sincere push for locally developed and manufactured systems. If you keep importing such systems you can't never win a against PRC. Local development and productions is the only way ahead.

My mistake, also not mixing pak & prc in mmrca for now. and its mk2.

Its not so easy. Their is a huge obstacle for indigenous systems from all corners. Even for leader like Modi it is difficult to promote local systems. Import lobby is very strong in India and will do anything to subdue local products.
Never under-estimate the import lobby. They won't mind selling the nation to fill their coffers.

Its one ways to things and the other way - no pgrm is not killing other pgrms.
Iaf need 150+ reliable high end foreign jets and these jets not a issue for lca or amca pgrm, even if iaf gets 1000s of them, they still needed to buy minimum or initial nos, currently 90 for mwf and 144 for amca and that is not happening, means no need to worry.
Import lobby - yes, even IAF knows it, one side is Russian & other westerns lobbies, but no lobby for indian.
Indigenous/desi jets - the no.of Indigenous jets in IAF is increasing, during final stage of lca development 40 jets ordered and initialized 80 plus mk2 [90 engine on order] and when mk1 comes to foc standard 83 mk1a, and same goes to mk2 and its order is big, more than 200 jets and amca having 144 order and all these irrelevant to <mmrcas, mrfa> order. IAF buying a lots of Indigenous items, from sam, radars, missiles, rwr, subsystems, helios etc, bottom line ''WE'' is doing a great job.
Two important issue are - indigenous pgrm complection time frame and gov support. If gov become easy prey of import lobby, then no hope for indigenous[UPA loved US weapons, Modiji NASAMS options but cancelled] and IAF will follow to avoid issues. In 2000 zero desi jets in IAF, now around 16 and by 2030, 100 plus and MMRCA having zero effect in it.

 

[Fonck83]

IAF Splits $20 Bn Fighter Jet Procurement Into Two Programmes

IAF splits $20 Bn fighter jet procurement into two programmes

MRFA numbers effectively reduced to less than half of the stated requirement of 114 foreign fighters as decision on Phase-II pushed into ambiguity a decade down the road , , iaf, MRFA, boeing, Lockeed Martin, dassault, eurofighter, saab, sukhoi, mig

www.businessworld.in

MRFA numbers effectively reduced to less than half of the stated requirement of 114 foreign fighters as decision on Phase-II pushed into ambiguity a decade down the road

The Indian Air Force (IAF) Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme is being split into two parts under different procurement models to address the stated requirement of 114 jets, high-level military sources told BW Businessworld.

Under the revised procurement concept, the first part or phase of MRFA will involve the procurement of 54 foreign jets under the Buy Global (Manufacture in India) category of the Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP), with the contract being awarded to a foreign OEM. Of these, 18 will be procured in a flyaway condition from the OEM while 36 will be manufactured in India by a local partner selected by the OEM. This partner will be from the private sector.

The IAF is pushing for an early Acceptance of Necessity (AON) for Phase-I from the Defence Acquisition Council, and aims at issuing an RFP by the end of 2022.

Part-II of MRFA is not yet a programme but a concept, sources disclosed. It involves procurement of 60 jets from the Indian production partner selected by the OEM for Part-I. The Part-II procurement model will be Buy Indian, with the Indian production agency being the prime for the issuance of contract.

“Part-II is a concept which may translate into a programme after seven-or-eight years,” official sources said, acknowledging the uncertainty and ambiguity which such a time lag could impose on the project.

The IAF has bounced the revised plan off global OEMs interested in the acquisition. Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the US, Dassault of France, the Eurofighter consortium of Europe, Saab of Sweden and Sukhoi and MiG of Russia are in the IAF’s selection pool which involves eight fighter aircraft types.

OEMs which BW Businessworld spoke with have taken a dim view. “There’s no certainty of Phase-II. Which means that costs of setting up an assembly line in India will have to be amortized over just 54 aircraft (instead of 114), only 36 of which will be manufactured in India. This will push up costs significantly and make the MRFA very expensive for India,” said a senior executive of an OEM. “Business assurance is only from Phase-I, and we need to rework our business case for 54 fighters instead of 114,” he elaborated.

The other significant shift in the MRFA programme is the rejection of the Strategic Partnership (SP) Model by the IAF. “This is mainly on account of the unsatisfactory experience in the abortive Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) programme, and the Project 75 (I) submarine project under the SP Model,” official sources explained.

NUH crashed after prolonged indecision by the Government on whether or not to allow the public sector in a model intended to create an alternate private sector complex in end-to-end manufacturing of a military platform. In Project 75(I), deep reservations were expressed by OEMs on fulfilling deep Transfer of Technology requirements to the Indian Strategic Partner and their relegation as junior associates in the programme.

“The IAF is struggling to define its requirement. It has also struggled to finalise its operating model. This creates uncertainties for creating a business model,” observed an executive from another OEM.

By splitting the requirement, and with ambiguity after Phase-I, India could end up paying many times over for aircraft, reasoned another.

 

[Super falcon]

Rafale has great chance to be inducted due to India also getting safran engines program in india

 

[Super Flanker]

Rafale has great chance to be inducted due to India also getting safran engines program in india

For Indian Airforce's MMRCA Tender, Dassault Rafale (F4 standards) is the best option and on the other hand, for Indian Navy's Carrier Borne Aircraft requirement, F/A-18 is the best.

 

[vishnugupt]

IAF Splits $20 Bn Fighter Jet Procurement Into Two Programmes

IAF splits $20 Bn fighter jet procurement into two programmes

MRFA numbers effectively reduced to less than half of the stated requirement of 114 foreign fighters as decision on Phase-II pushed into ambiguity a decade down the road , , iaf, MRFA, boeing, Lockeed Martin, dassault, eurofighter, saab, sukhoi, mig

www.businessworld.in

MRFA numbers effectively reduced to less than half of the stated requirement of 114 foreign fighters as decision on Phase-II pushed into ambiguity a decade down the road

The Indian Air Force (IAF) Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) programme is being split into two parts under different procurement models to address the stated requirement of 114 jets, high-level military sources told BW Businessworld.

Under the revised procurement concept, the first part or phase of MRFA will involve the procurement of 54 foreign jets under the Buy Global (Manufacture in India) category of the Defence Acquisition Procedure (DAP), with the contract being awarded to a foreign OEM. Of these, 18 will be procured in a flyaway condition from the OEM while 36 will be manufactured in India by a local partner selected by the OEM. This partner will be from the private sector.

The IAF is pushing for an early Acceptance of Necessity (AON) for Phase-I from the Defence Acquisition Council, and aims at issuing an RFP by the end of 2022.

Part-II of MRFA is not yet a programme but a concept, sources disclosed. It involves procurement of 60 jets from the Indian production partner selected by the OEM for Part-I. The Part-II procurement model will be Buy Indian, with the Indian production agency being the prime for the issuance of contract.

“Part-II is a concept which may translate into a programme after seven-or-eight years,” official sources said, acknowledging the uncertainty and ambiguity which such a time lag could impose on the project.

The IAF has bounced the revised plan off global OEMs interested in the acquisition. Boeing and Lockheed Martin of the US, Dassault of France, the Eurofighter consortium of Europe, Saab of Sweden and Sukhoi and MiG of Russia are in the IAF’s selection pool which involves eight fighter aircraft types.

OEMs which BW Businessworld spoke with have taken a dim view. “There’s no certainty of Phase-II. Which means that costs of setting up an assembly line in India will have to be amortized over just 54 aircraft (instead of 114), only 36 of which will be manufactured in India. This will push up costs significantly and make the MRFA very expensive for India,” said a senior executive of an OEM. “Business assurance is only from Phase-I, and we need to rework our business case for 54 fighters instead of 114,” he elaborated.

The other significant shift in the MRFA programme is the rejection of the Strategic Partnership (SP) Model by the IAF. “This is mainly on account of the unsatisfactory experience in the abortive Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) programme, and the Project 75 (I) submarine project under the SP Model,” official sources explained.

NUH crashed after prolonged indecision by the Government on whether or not to allow the public sector in a model intended to create an alternate private sector complex in end-to-end manufacturing of a military platform. In Project 75(I), deep reservations were expressed by OEMs on fulfilling deep Transfer of Technology requirements to the Indian Strategic Partner and their relegation as junior associates in the programme.

“The IAF is struggling to define its requirement. It has also struggled to finalise its operating model. This creates uncertainties for creating a business model,” observed an executive from another OEM.

By splitting the requirement, and with ambiguity after Phase-I, India could end up paying many times over for aircraft, reasoned another.

Surprisingly, It's remain 20 Billion dollar deal since 2008.

 

[vishnugupt]

For Indian Airforce's MMRCA Tender, Dassault Rafale (F4 standards) is the best option and on the other hand, for Indian Navy's Carrier Borne Aircraft requirement, F/A-18 is the best.

Second hand Mig-29k will be the best option. Or better take on lease and Wait for TEDBF.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Second hand Mig-29k will be the best option. Or better take on lease and Wait for TEDBF.

IN is completely disappointed with Mig-29K. When it comes to serviceability they are absolutely nightmare.
Mig-29K also doesn't offer much technical capabilities comare to F-18SH or Rafale.