MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

SwordOfDarkness

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Message to all the indian forumers :
Do you have some echoes about the availability of Rafale in your air force? Some comments? please share links.
As per recent report by IAF, Rafale has one of the highest availability rates in current inventory. Requirement was >75%, seems to have achieved that.

Source:- Dont remember, but it was the one where they said rafale outclassed all other fighters in IAF.
 

Dark Sorrow

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For your knowledge our tech/ economy/ manufacturing/ military can match usa+eu. we can live with out computers, smartphone or software/IT, but can't without Russia.
Bro are you kidding me. You got it the wrong way. We can survive without Russia but not without Western technology.
Our entire economy is dependent on Western technology starting from semiconductor to PLC to software to chemical process. We are dependent on computers for everything from water/electricity coming to our house, to communication to complex surgery and everything in between. Without their support our entire economy will come to a standstill.
A weak Russia not good for us,
Frankly we don't care. Except for few strategic projects Russia is of no help to India. With their tilt to PRC post 2014 Russia is more of a liability than asset,
that why we buying from Russia and Russia is better than the rest,
We buy from Russia because Chandigarh lobby is ready to sell our national interest for their personal profit.
so question is when we stop buying from usa, eu etc, ans- when our capability suppress combined that of usa + eu, till then we depends on Russia and they milk us as long as we buy from their enemies and its mmrca thread and we are going to buy from french, a neutral one.
Russia milks us because they are getting greedy and they consider as an expendable customer.
Russia is playing the part of shrewd businessman.
We buy from west because they offer better proven technology and better products with better usability compared to Russian products.
 

johnj

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Bro are you kidding me. You got it the wrong way. We can survive without Russia but not without Western technology.
Our entire economy is dependent on Western technology starting from semiconductor to PLC to software to chemical process. We are dependent on computers for everything from water/electricity coming to our house, to communication to complex surgery and everything in between. Without their support our entire economy will come to a standstill.
Here you are true, but you need to understand once we were controlled by west and it is its side effect, now consider entire himalayan regions controlled by pakistan and china, and calculate how much of indian population depends on rivers emerging from himalayas, then consider rest. You need west for good life, but not for survival, and here Russia comes to play, and in future also. There is a huge difference b/w survival and having great life. Now for your knowledge, we import those from chinese and we can R&D, manufacture those, in other words, if we don't need Russia, then we also don't need west, means we need them all, and we are going to buy russian items and works with Russia for a price. {for survival you need an ecosystem, water, food, shelter plus weapons to defend your self/ and we depends on russian on weapons, and you are right about economy and better economy provide better living conditions and a good future]
IAF requested mmrca for foreign jets and not indian, and also asked about russian jets, and goi going to pay huge amount of money, and no country offering critical tot, So what if I write like this'' we need to stop buying goods[plc,semiconductor, chemical plus]/software from outside[west plus] becz they are not giving critical tot'', does it make any sense ? [i don't think so]
Why India need Russia, its entirely other topic, not related to this thread, but considering the thread, we need russia that's why we send rfi to them, like to usa and iaf want eu origin jet.[150 nos].
 

johnj

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Look there are different lobbies in USA .. Just like India . Democracy is messy .. Its not like russia china ... We down to the common men understand their language ( english ) ... lobbies keep releasing statements based on likes prejudice and money . But at the end of the day i dnt think morons take the final call when it comes to geopolitics . Any adverse action against india for some reason ll result in grave consequences for global order and interest of USA . And i dont see any reason for that .. we have come a long way since our nuclear test .

There are also people questioning reliability of Russia right now as china russia get closer and china increasingly getting hostile to india . So no immediate knee jerk conclusion should be drawn based on current scenario ...

But self reliance is instrumental to security of India .. There is need to invest more in research . that much we all agree on and what ever path we take it should lead us towards that goal .
Here your important points is - Russia China relation. Here add Russa Pakistan into it. Means we need to buy Russian equipment for slow down these relationship, and to make sure the tech to chinese don't possess a huge threat. Its is one reason, but not a major one. Second reason - veto power/ actually the major one considering Chinese economy.
3. having russia in our side plus usa support, chinese don't consider a major conflict with us. 4, nuclear tech, 5. natural resources 6. tech support from other areas. [We are not dumb to spend huge money to Russians]
Now lastly, simply look dpsu, ofb, hal they need russian tech to produce major equ. [too bad], and till date ussr/russia provided some tech rest equal to zero, that why modi ji don't like offsets and paid russia for tech.[Russia helping in human space flight/ ssbn etc]
One day our economic & tech become similar to eu/us/china and we need a lots of resources, africa, russia, aus can meet such needs. One way or another we all are depends each other, important thing is not allow others to take advantage of such conditions[china/pak/sco luring russia-the largest military/high tech provider to india]
If you consider US, they don't care about us, they want us to balance Chinese influence, there trying use us like a tool, they don't care a lot, and we seen their covid actions, EU a way better than US. No wounder why iaf interested in eu fighter jets /russian[old] and not usa ones.
==========================================================
Till date we using russian tech in indigenous items, and most of gov weapon manuf depends on russian tech[hal/bel made some impv. using eu] and if you believe in self reliance[india] including tech then make sure india depends on africa/russia considering natural resources. Q. What is your issue with Russia, becz they sell some tech to us and rest nothing [spend 18b $ to usa with zero tech], just curious and I writing irrelevant things, no further comments on this topic[till 5th gen engine jv complection]. 114 rafale with critical tot[ engine jv/ ew for amca].
 

Blademaster

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Bro are you kidding me. You got it the wrong way. We can survive without Russia but not without Western technology.
Our entire economy is dependent on Western technology starting from semiconductor to PLC to software to chemical process. We are dependent on computers for everything from water/electricity coming to our house, to communication to complex surgery and everything in between. Without their support our entire economy will come to a standstill.

Frankly we don't care. Except for few strategic projects Russia is of no help to India. With their tilt to PRC post 2014 Russia is more of a liability than asset,

We buy from Russia because Chandigarh lobby is ready to sell our national interest for their personal profit.

Russia milks us because they are getting greedy and they consider as an expendable customer.
Russia is playing the part of shrewd businessman.
We buy from west because they offer better proven technology and better products with better usability compared to Russian products.
You are definitely drinking the kool aid. You want India to be forever beholden to the West and be brown sepoys. You need to stop your dhoti shivering and exit your brown sepoy mindset. Russia is a better ally because Russia is giving us the means of independence while the Western world don't. I mean take a look at the sanctions. They are trying to force everyone to kowtow to the Western line. And you don't see it. Instead you just swallow it all without thinking of the implications.
 

johnj

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As per recent report by IAF, Rafale has one of the highest availability rates in current inventory. Requirement was >75%, seems to have achieved that.

Source:- Dont remember, but it was the one where they said rafale outclassed all other fighters in IAF.
Source from IAF, right ? So question is about the availability rates of mirage, how much ? any data/info ? Around 80% achievable.
 

SwordOfDarkness

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Source from IAF, right ? So question is about the availability rates of mirage, how much ? any data/info ? Around 80% achievable.
IDK, dont remember. As of now, I would guess around 60% as they are getting a bit old and parts harder to find. Old mirages that we bought and cannibalised will run for a while, but we may not have adequate for higher rates.
 

Dark Sorrow

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You are definitely drinking the kool aid. You want India to be forever beholden to the West and be brown sepoys. You need to stop your dhoti shivering and exit your brown sepoy mindset. Russia is a better ally because Russia is giving us the means of independence while the Western world don't. I mean take a look at the sanctions. They are trying to force everyone to kowtow to the Western line. And you don't see it. Instead you just swallow it all without thinking of the implications.
Guy staying in US is lecturing people back in India who should we regard as more important partner.
Mater of fact is West is more important partner to India when it comes to economy, trade, technology, health-care and PRC.
Sitting in US; enjoying their luxuries life-style, economy, technology, health-care and security people should not sit on high horse and tell Indian what is good for them.

Trade and good relations with US offer improved standard of living for Indians, improved economy, good health-care, good technology and in general better prospects. Russia has nothing to offer as such.

Until you leave the US bubble you should not advice us brown skins with whom we have better prospects. US offers us a better future that Russia doesn't.
 

MonaLazy

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Russia is a better ally because Russia is giving us the means of independence while the Western world don't.
Mater of fact is West is more important partner to India when it comes to economy, trade, technology, health-care and PRC.
Why can't we walk the tight rope and be friends with both? Take the best from each "camp" - be multi aligned or non aligned. That's exactly what we have been trying to achieve since the non aligned days till today where we are in quad to counter PRC but neutral on Russia because only they will give us nuke submarines on lease which the US will put out of reach behind technology denial regimes. We should look out solely for Indian national interest- and nothing else. That's the direction of Indian foreign policy also. When we can be friends with both- why make enemies?
 

karn

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Why can't we walk the tight rope and be friends with both? Take the best from each "camp" - be multi aligned or non aligned. That's exactly what we have been trying to achieve since the non aligned days till today where we are in quad to counter PRC but neutral on Russia because only they will give us nuke submarines on lease which the US will put out of reach behind technology denial regimes. We should look out solely for Indian national interest- and nothing else. That's the direction of Indian foreign policy also. When we can be friends with both- why make enemies?
It's not just the Us russia thing . Even Iran - Israel lowkey everyone wants us to pick a side.
 

WolfPack86

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After Tata-Airbus success, IAF keen on same model for fighter jets
Buoyed by the success of the Tata-Airbus partnership to fabricate transport aircraft in India, the air power is keen that the upcoming procurement of latest fighter jets follows the same model, enabling fast supply of fight plane which might be required urgently to retain a fight edge within the area.

The estimated $20 billion procurement for 114 multi function fighter plane (MRFA) was initially being processed below the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, wherein an Indian firm ties up with a overseas provider to fabricate main platforms in India. This model nonetheless had not met with success but, with two tasks initiated by the navy failing to maneuver ahead. On the opposite hand, the ‘Buy Global, Make in India’ has proved itself to achieve success with the signing of a deal to fabricate C 295 transport plane by a Tata-Airbus mix. This model is easier and includes a less complicated shortlisting course of, leaving extra flexibility with the Indian associate to decide on a know-how collaborator. The air power evaluated no less than 4 totally different procurement choices on transferring forward with its MRFA requirement, lastly concluding that Buy Global, Make in India could be the best model to make sure that the undertaking proceeds easily and on time, senior authorities sources advised ET.


The Strategic Partnership model has confirmed to have a number of problems, with the primary ever undertaking below it to acquire Naval Utility Helicopters on the breaking point. The deal has been caught for over two years now and unlikely to maneuver forward after state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was initially debarred from getting into the competition.
The defence ministry has now positioned naval utility helicopters below an import ban listing and a naval model of HAL’s Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) is now seen because the lead contender for the contract. Similarly, the plan to amass standard submarines below Project 75I has additionally hit tough seas, with overseas know-how suppliers expressing their incapacity to fulfill what they describe as unreasonable “joint and severe liabilities” for a product that will probably be manufactured by the Indian associate. While orders have been positioned for 83 of the LCA Mk 1A plane from HAL, India faces an acute scarcity of fighter jets as a number of legacy Russian platforms have retired or are on the verge of being phased out. The total MiG 21 fleet is on its final legs and earlier plans to acquire 123 fighter jets was shelved to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets.
 

gajapati

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If the 20 billion $ mmrca amount is spent on our own aerospace ecosystem will it benefit us more ? Its a big amount ..
 

johnj

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If the 20 billion $ mmrca amount is spent on our own aerospace ecosystem will it benefit us more ? Its a big amount ..
Its a small amount for 100 jets, only hal having credible aerospace ecosystem and 20b $ only help them to enjoy a luxury life style, and use 10% for development.
 

gajapati

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Its a small amount for 100 jets, only hal having credible aerospace ecosystem and 20b $ only help them to enjoy a luxury life style, and use 10% for development.
I read somewhere AMCA development cost is approx 2 billion .. So in indian context the amount is big .. For exp development cost of FGFA was 8 billion .. F35 even more .. May be with this amount more assembly lines can be set up to increase our per year production of fighter jets . The mmrca jets we ll buy anyway going to come near 2030 anyway when tejas mk2 ll start rolling ..
 

johnj

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I read somewhere AMCA development cost is approx 2 billion .. May be with this amount more assembly lines can be set up to increase our per year production of fighter jets . The mmrca jets we ll buy anyway going to come near 2030 anyway when tejas mk2 ll start rolling ..
Its engine development costs more than that. IAF condition is very bad, give up more than 200 jets without replacement, and more to go. IAF need 250 jets in this decade, plus 250 in next.
 

Super Flanker

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MRFA Procurement Will Take Buy Global, Make In India Route, Says Air Chief.
This MRFA Tender was first issued back in April 2018 for 114 jets. It's been more than 4 years since MRFA Tender was initiated and till date we are only hearing these kind of news like "MRFA will Happen"/"MRFA will involve Complete transfer of Technology"/"MRFA is absolute necessity" and Blah blah blah.....

When the "F" will this whole tender happen? Come on dude! Just select the Dassault Rafale and end this whole MRFA Circus right now. Even a kid will know that Rafale is the best choice.

Rafale-Fighter-e1643879478481.jpg
 

_merlin_

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Dassault must be price-gouging us for Strategic Partnership model. Without an assembly line in India we will get Rafales very late - beyond 2030 most certainly. For $20 B we would like to use the SP model but Dassault probably wants 40 :)

Only other viable vendors will be the Americans who will only do Buy Global, Make in India which is licensed assembly aka screwdriver-giri and hence IAF probably wants Buy Global, Make in India as a negotiating tactic. Or they don't care about tech. Or both.
 

DeadCritic

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Considering the aging fleet.. Why 126 Rafale deal was canceled and 36 were purchased instead?
Those 126 could have filled the interim gap that we have today..
 

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