MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

IndianHawk

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posted this almost 3 years back we are moving in the direction I mentioned I'm afraid with respect to all things I have posted 👇
You should read my posts from 10 years ago :)
The only silver lining is we are moving forward in indigenous direction. From lone struggling on the verge of cancellation lca projet 10 years ago today we have mk1a contract signed , MWF near metal cutting with design finalized , amca tedbf in detailed design phase.

IN next 10 years we should be participating in other countries mrca programs. Lol.
 

MonaLazy

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ORCA is a paper plane as of now- only fly in the ointment! IAF is not even on-boarded on the concept as yet. May be they want to watch from the side-lines and ensure money for LCA Mk2 & AMCA while TEDBF matures with Navy's funds. Once the program reaches some point & they realize MRFA is going nowhere may be they will be convinced to back it. For now Mk2 is the exact mirage replacement they wanted and has their full backing.
 

MonaLazy

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MMRCA-2 if order placed next year will start production by 2025-26.
If MMRCA 2.0 is to be ordered next year by now we would at least know who is the winner and what is the ball park (exorbitant) OEM price demand and what is the 10-15% off GoI is willing to pay for it.

A possible 36+78 deal on the Rafale F4 from a 29 Jan IDRW article:

Explained: New Offers on Rafale F4 standard, 36 Second Tranche, 70% ToT to India

The French government has started its diplomatic push to secure more orders for its Rafale fighter jet and push comes to secure orders for the second batch of 36 jets and according to the French media reports, 36 Rafale on offer to India are of the F4 standard that is yet to be validated and development that only begin in 2019. The French government has signed a €2 billion deal with Dassault Aviation to develop the Rafale’s F4 standard, which is expected to be validated by 2024.

Dassault Aviation confirmed that only 30 aircraft will be of F4 standard that is yet to be ordered by French Air Force due to which delivery will start only between 2027 and 2030. sensing possible delays in the inking of a deal with the French Air Force no later than 2023, Dassault Aviation is willing to make the Indian Air force (IAF) the launch customer or cater to the demands of both airforce’s at the same time for the F4 standard that might come with an India-specific enhancement.


F4 standard

Dassault Aviation is offering F4 standard with upgraded radar sensors and front-sector optronics. network-centric warfare, satellite communication, helmet-mounted display, and software-defined radio are other areas where F4 standard will be getting minor and major upgrades. India operates Rafale F3-R standard with India-specific enhancements and already 11 have been delivered to India with the remaining 25 comings in the next few months.

DRAL Roles

IAF Chief has been advocating for the purchase of 114 Rafale fighter jets and the French Government along with Dassault have offered 70 percent of the assembly line for Rafale fighters under the “Make in India” with full transfer of technology. Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd (DRAL) situated in Mihan special economic zone (SEZ) in Nagpur, a joint venture between Anil Ambani-led Reliance Infrastructure Ltd and Dassault Aviation as been proposed for local assembly of 78 jets with 36 comings directly from Dassault Aviation if the proposal is approved.

While Anil Ambani is facing bankruptcy but Reliance Infrastructure Ltd, company will be completely debt-free this year, but the Government of India might push for selling off some of the stakes of the Anil Ambani that might be taken over by HAL lead Public-Private defense sector consortium of companies in partnership with the Dassault Aviation.

Tranche or Bulk

Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) General Bipin Rawat had suggested a tranche based order pattern for fighter jets that could mean smaller orders as per requirements and could not require long term financial commitment for their procurement. But that has not gone well with the IAF Top management that usually prefers ordering jets as per original intent and requirement of the air force that is 114 jets.

Tranche-based order pattern also means each contract has to be renegotiated adjusting cost inflations but this method also ensures that the jets are far more capable and come with more modern technologies avoiding risking the technological becoming obsolescence by the time the last aircraft is rolled out. but problems associated with smaller orders in long term do tend to be more expensive due to limited ordering patterns and limited supply chain.

AMCA Collaborations

Dassault Aviation is willing to collaborate with India in the development of India’s 5.5 Generation fighter jets and is willing to offer some of the technology for the AMCA Program that is integrated currently in the Dassault Rafale fighter jet that is inducted by the IAF. Snecma, a Safran group company, has offered to co-develop a new engine with DRDO developed reheat afterburner section, engine nozzles, and Fan section that was developed for a higher thrust class engine that could be used on the M88 Core section.
highlights:
  • On offer is Rafale F4
  • Delivery will start only between 2027 and 2030 for FrAF if they order no later than 2023. IAF could be launch customer if they order before that.
  • The F4 standard itself is expected to be validated by 2024
  • 36 off the shelf from French gov/DA
  • balance 78 jets 70% MII with full ToT at DRAL Nagpur facility
  • Some tech from Rafale F3R into AMCA
  • Snecma/Safran has offered to co-develop a new engine with DRDO developed reheat afterburner section, engine nozzles, and Fan section that was developed for a higher thrust class engine that could be used on the M88 Core section.
 
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Spitfire9

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highlights:
  • Snecma/Safran has offered to co-develop a new engine with DRDO developed reheat afterburner section, engine nozzles, and Fan section that was developed for a higher thrust class engine that could be used on the M88 Core section.
Gulp... the afterburner thrust of Kaveri was miles below target yet the proposal is for DRDO to develop the afterburner section!!!!
 

BON PLAN

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ORCA will go into production by 2030
First Rafale, LFI standard, was just able to fire old Magic 2 short range missile. Nothing more.
It takes nearly 5 more years to have the beginning of a really multi role fighter.
Don't imagine India, with a poor past in delay promises kept, able to do better. Worst is more likely. I'm sorry but it's just lesson from the past.
 

BON PLAN

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If MMRCA 2.0 is to be ordered next year by now we would at least know who is the winner and what is the ball park (exorbitant) OEM price demand and what is the 10-15% off GoI is willing to pay for it.

A possible 36+78 deal on the Rafale F4 from a 29 Jan IDRW article:



highlights:
  • On offer is Rafale F4
  • Delivery will start only between 2027 and 2030 for FrAF if they order no later than 2023. IAF could be launch customer if they order before that.
  • The F4 standard itself is expected to be validated by 2024
  • 36 off the shelf from French gov/DA
  • balance 78 jets 70% MII with full ToT at DRAL Nagpur facility
  • Some tech from Rafale F3R into AMCA
  • Snecma/Safran has offered to co-develop a new engine with DRDO developed reheat afterburner section, engine nozzles, and Fan section that was developed for a higher thrust class engine that could be used on the M88 Core section.
An order in 2021 means first delivery from 2024. 2025 if the assembly line is in India.
 

Tactical Doge

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Don't imagine India, with a poor past in delay promises kept, able to do better. Worst is more likely. I'm sorry but it's just lesson from the past.
Screenshot_20210322-210606~2.png

I'll also add that the current political-military ecosystem is more behind indigenous development than any other previous governments
We can probably see some new changes for good
 

Spitfire9

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My suggestions

cancel MMRCA 2.0 and apply the the $10+ billion saved towards other projects

(1) build new FAL(s) with capacity of >20 frames a year
(2) involve a private player in manufacture and test of MWF or else TEDBF, say JV with HAL
(3) order 3/4/5 more squadrons of MWF
(4) order 2/3 more squadrons of Rafale
(5) partner with a major engine OEM to develop a new 110kN engine, preferably able to drop in as a replacement for end of life F414's - derated if required
(6) build a flying test bed for new engine with help of selected engine OEM partner
 

FalconSlayers

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First Rafale, LFI standard, was just able to fire old Magic 2 short range missile. Nothing more.
It takes nearly 5 more years to have the beginning of a really multi role fighter.
Don't imagine India, with a poor past in delay promises kept, able to do better. Worst is more likely. I'm sorry but it's just lesson from the past.
1980s was different when whole NATO was pissed from India, from our Nuclear Weapons test we got sanctions and then yes our Import Lobby always disturbing us. We still feel its a formidable feat what we have achieved.
 

Super Flanker

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I think iaf will buy more rafales.gripen e is also a good fighter but I think they want the best so I believe they will order more rafales.
I know that I am replying to an old post but I will still reply though here:
This Post I guess will still be relevant even now so I will say it.
To be honest The SAAB Gripen has no place in the Indian airforce, our upcoming Tejas mk2 will be in the same Class as gripen, so there is no need to buy an Aircraft like Gripen.
Also our Airforce preferably wants a twin engine Aircraft which is what our Airforce will desire through this tender.
I guess the most probable outcome of this MMRCA 2 will be Rafale.
 

Super Flanker

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Guys, I have a question here:

In this entire MMRCA tender, the Winning bid will have to build the Aircrafts in India itself under Transfer of Technology with a local indian partner.

I always wanted to know how much Technology will we get in this, if we buy MIG-35, we will get how much Technology of MIG-35, if we buy F-15 ,how much Technology will we get fot F-15. I always wanted to know what kind of technology is transferred with regards to this tender by the winning bid.

I always wanted to know the Answer to this though.
 

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