MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Dessert Storm]

You call that unreasonable money? Seriously?

Unreasonable cuz it was not just $500 million which soured the deal. IP for the core, even after payment would lie with the French. Which means royalty payments to them for thousands of engines we make. That's billions for the French. And lastly you end up sharing your engine tech with them for free. Don't for a moment believe that they know how to make engines so we cannot come up with anything new that they haven't thought of.

 

[Lancer]

First let the Russian Air Force get it's delivery of 76 aircraft. That is expected by 2028. Once that delivery is completed, then let the IAF evaluate operational Russian Air Force SU-57s to figure out if there is interest. Do not get an unproven, not in service with it's home airforce fighter into the Indian Air Force which is then faced with the headaches of maintaining the plane.

If they have firm commitments from abroad they may be able to deliver sooner.

As for the proven/unproven part. It is automatically the best non-American stealth fighter available.

US refuses to sell the F-22, and F-35 would be a white elephant for India (not to mention it's not that great of a dogfighter). J-20 is overhyped, and India wouldn't be looking to buy it anyways.

That leaves Su-57's vs. the paper plane that is AMCA. We can probably get our hands on the Sukhois earlier (so experience operating 5th Gen, bump in squadron numbers, and potential valuable lessons for domestic stealth project) - and while the AMCA may turn out good some day - nobody can guarantee a delivery date with the Tejas MK1A yet to be produced in significant numbers (and MK2's + ORCA's still on drawing boards). So for now it's an unproven and nonexistent plane from an unproven country/aerospace industry.

A few squadrons off the shelf and customized with help from a 3rd party country (think MKI) would serve us well.

 

[Lancer]

did not make a mention of that specifically cuz mention of Su57 attracts immediate reactions, which would dilute topic at hand.
Absolutely agree with you for following reasons:
(1) Weapons package available rocks.
(2) Certain sensors if they work as promised would be wow.
(3) Russians would be happy to help in upgrading MKIs with some tech from the 5th Gen platform.
(4) Americans won't be forthcoming with sharing tech like sensors even if we buy F35. Not that I am saying we cannot or we shouldn't go with F35B for Navy.
* Would obviously prefer all the tech above to be Indian asap.

Great Minds think alike

If/when India has the money to put towards an expeditionary Marine Corps w/ Landing Docks - it can look into a small fleet of F-35's (this is very very far into the future, if it ever happens).

But til then, the Sukhoi makes the most sense for us. I know it draws strong reflexive reactions but someone had to say it hehehe

 

[LDev]

If they have firm commitments from abroad they may be able to deliver sooner.

As for the proven/unproven part. It is automatically the best non-American stealth fighter available.

US refuses to sell the F-22, and F-35 would be a white elephant for India (not to mention it's not that great of a dogfighter). J-20 is overhyped, and India wouldn't be looking to buy it anyways.

That leaves Su-57's vs. the paper plane that is AMCA. We can probably get our hands on the Sukhois earlier (so experience operating 5th Gen, bump in squadron numbers, and potential valuable lessons for domestic stealth project) - and while the AMCA may turn out good some day - nobody can guarantee a delivery date with the Tejas MK1A yet to be produced in significant numbers (and MK2's + ORCA's still on drawing boards). So for now it's an unproven and nonexistent plane from an unproven country/aerospace industry.

A few squadrons off the shelf and customized with help from a 3rd party country (think MKI) would serve us well.

I would have to say that the IAF by rejecting the co-development of the FGFA which is nothing more than a customized SU-57 agrees with my viewpoint. The IAF position when they rejected the Russian offer was that they would like to see the SU-57 in operation with the Russian Air Force and and then evaluate it. And if it passes the IAF evaluation at that stage they will buy some off the shelf. What that tells me is that after the lessons learned in converting the SU-30K interceptor into the SU-30MKI over a period of many years with all the issues relating to OEM support and integration of systems from different countries, they have had enough and are fed up. So good luck in convincing the IAF to customize any future Russian fighters.

 

[Lancer]

I would have to say that the IAF by rejecting the co-development of the FGFA which is nothing more than a customized SU-57 agrees with my viewpoint.

Not really, they pulled out - above everything - because they were investing quite a bit of money into the R&D but the Russians weren't being open about sharing the info & tech. And the fact that they decided to pull out of the partnership, but kept the door open for off the shelf purchases - is basically in line with what I'm saying.

But what you are suggesting is putting off the acquisition too far into the future (wait till the orders are done in 2028, THEN evaluate the fighter, THEN make the decision, THEN eventually get the fighter etc etc) - the fighter doesn't have to be perfect - but India needs to be getting its hands on a stealth fighter soon. From there, lessons can be learned and adjustments can be made - which as I said - could prove useful for the AMCA project too.

 

[LDev]

Not really, they pulled out - above everything - because they were investing quite a bit of money into the R&D but the Russians weren't being open about sharing the info & tech. And the fact that they decided to pull out of the partnership, but kept the door open for off the shelf purchases - is basically in line with what I'm saying.

But what you are suggesting is putting off the acquisition too far into the future (wait till the orders are done in 2028, THEN evaluate the fighter, THEN make the decision, THEN eventually get the fighter etc etc) - the fighter doesn't have to be perfect - but India needs to be getting its hands on a stealth fighter soon. From there, lessons can be learned and adjustments can be made - which as I said - could prove useful for the AMCA project too.

In reality that is what the IAF decision amounts to. They want to see the SU-57 in operation with the Russian air force. And not just introduced but they want to see the experience the Russian Air Force has in operating the aircraft. That will take time, probably until the delivery of the 76 is completed in 2028. And who knows where the IAF procurement plans are by then. Hopefully they will have supplemented the 36 Rafale order by then. And if the AMCA has a frozen design by then......Realistically I do not see a future for the SU-57 with the IAF. And that is not just my opinion but what I am reading about how the IAF has gone about terminating the interest in the SU-57. Obviously being Russia, they are couching it in non offensive language but......

 

[Lancer]

In reality that is what the IAF decision amounts to. They want to see the SU-57 in operation with the Russian air force. And not just introduced but they want to see the experience the Russian Air Force has in operating the aircraft. That will take time, probably until the delivery of the 76 is completed in 2028. And who knows where the IAF procurement plans are by then. Hopefully they will have supplemented the 36 Rafale order by then. And if the AMCA has a frozen design by then......Realistically I do not see a future for the SU-57 with the IAF. And that is not just my opinion but what I am reading about how the IAF has gone about terminating the interest in the SU-57. Obviously being Russia, they are couching it in non offensive language but......

Let's see, I honestly just can't see us waiting until AMCA is finally developed, has its kinks ironed out and mass produced to have 5th Gen Fighters. Especially given the history of Tejas development.

 

[Knowitall]

I am all for indigenous. However, pls note that IAF operates 3 categories. Light (Tejas Mk1, Mig21, Jags), Medium (Mig 29, Mirage 2k, Rafale), Heavy (Su30MKI). Done with background, I will put forth the following:
(1) Military purchases are not based on shauk n dreams.
(2) Money is always tight. Govt has to find money to fulfill shortfall in the squadron strength projected in Medium Multi-role category (may b heavy out of Strategic compulsions).
(3) Tejas are being built in numbers. Mk1 40 examples by 2023. MK1A 83 examples 2023-27. Probably more depending on IAF requirements.
(4) IAF plans to retire approx 110 Mig 21 by 2024.
(5) MWF scheduled to enter production in 2027. Approx 200 examples to be made.
(6) AMCA to enter production in 2029-30. Approx 120 examples to be made.
(7) Jaguar fleet retirement starts 2030, ends 2035 In order to remain potent till 2030, they at least need engines starting now.
(8) No medium fighters are entering between 2020 and 2027 except 36 Rafales that is shortage of 78 (114-36).
(9) Light category numbers fall by 70 in 2024 (+40 Mk1-110 Mig 21)
(10) Govt and IAF are therefore still inclined to at least go for a G2G in medium category.
(11) I also would add that we will go for limited outright purchase of 5th Gen Heavy fighters in the next decade, which would probably be the last purchase of a foreign fighter aircraft. Thereafter, it would be collaboration at worst and indigenous at best depending on the category of fighter in question.
* Not even started to talk about retirement of Mig 29 and older frames of Su30Mki.
**Approx Squadron strength required on date is 42. Available strength is 33. So shortfall of 9 already.
***Good to have indigenous but till the time capabilities are built, the squadron numbers cannot be thrown under the bus. Therefore G2G with tech transfer. On the double.
**** Expecting reactions on the broad picture not nitpicking on some detail.

If I'm not mistaken MWF trials were to start by 2022 and AMCa by 2025?!

 

[Dessert Storm]

If I'm not mistaken MWF trials were to start by 2022 and AMCa by 2025?!

Absolutely around the time u say. Give n take. I gave the timelines for induction. U gave the timelines for trials. I think broadly we are on same page here.

 

[Knowitall]

Absolutely around the time u say. Give n take. I gave the timelines for induction. U gave the timelines for trials. I think broadly we are on same page here.

Agree but I seriously doubt the govt would purchase anything during this timeframe the new rfp for mmrca will take 3 years atleast 2022 I feel the govt might just go for another g2g at this point.

 

[Dessert Storm]

Great Minds think alike

If/when India has the money to put towards an expeditionary Marine Corps w/ Landing Docks - it can look into a small fleet of F-35's (this is very very far into the future, if it ever happens).

But til then, the Sukhoi makes the most sense for us. I know it draws strong reflexivections but someone had to say it hehehe

To project our Regional Power status, we have to have an Expeditionary Force. By 2040 I hope we have 3-4 ACs with at least 2 in CATOBAR configuration, n 4 LPDs. On the ocean side, we are leaning towards American Platforms n that makes sense cuz of ease of interoperability with assets of friendly countries in Indo-Pacific. I see us getting SHs in near future n F35B further down.

It was hearty to see MKI in EW-Recon config. Are we and/or the Russians working on quadpack configuration of missile launchers on MKIs. Cuz if that's true than MKIs in
SAP 518 -ELM 2060P SAR/GMTI or SAP518-SAP14 configs can be huge force multipliers combining with Bomb/Missile Trucks.
*Dunno whether Chinks have been provided with SARs for their SUs.

 

[Dessert Storm]

I would have to say that the IAF by rejecting the co-development of the FGFA which is nothing more than a customized SU-57 agrees with my viewpoint. The IAF position when they rejected the Russian offer was that they would like to see the SU-57 in operation with the Russian Air Force and and then evaluate it. And if it passes the IAF evaluation at that stage they will buy some off the shelf. What that tells me is that after the lessons learned in converting the SU-30K interceptor into the SU-30MKI over a period of many years with all the issues relating to OEM support and integration of systems from different countries, they have had enough and are fed up. So good luck in convincing the IAF to customize any future Russian fighters.

IAF rejected the co-development cuz the Russians said they would but weren't. Once the co-development deal is off, the next logical progression is off-the-shelf.
As far as customisation is concerned, for a 'limited' number that IAF wants to buy, it won't be done by Indians. Would b done by Russians with only a few (maybe) to be done in India.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Absolutely right, it will be better to get UAE Mirage if available.

Though Taiwan will probably negotiate and we can bring cost of acquisition down and it will includes all the spare parts some micas and other weapons etc they have. Almost entire facility of Mirage they operate.

But it will be another long term mess of upgrade and all. Anyway I do feel we will stretch Mirage 2k beyond 35 perhaps.

And when will they be free ? Not before 2024--- onwards.

And the upgrade cost is actually over 45 mn+ from French so highly unlikely even if we upgrade we may do it in house this time with HAL and Israel taking the lead.

No official statement from the Taiwanese on that. Further they ain't gifting it. Expect a min of $1.5 billion. Add to that the upgrade cost of approx Rs 300 cores per fighter. Per fighter it comes to Rs.450 cores plus. That for a fighter that IAF plans to start retiring in 2030.

Mirage-2000 Upgradation: High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows | India News - Times of India

India News: The overall upgrade programme of the Mirage-2000s is pegged at Rs 17,547 crore, with the first two fighters being upgraded in France and the rest 49 b

m.timesofindia.com

.

 

[Immanuel]

MMRCA 2.0 is a waste of time, the smart move would be secure more Rafale ideally F-4 version with increased local assembly. There is no reason why 36-54 aircraft can't be ordered without wasting time.

 

[The Maverick]

MMRCA 2.0 is a waste of time, the smart move would be secure more Rafale ideally F-4 version with increased local assembly. There is no reason why 36-54 aircraft can't be ordered without wasting time.

100% the best decision we can make
Build up rafale and tejas simultaneously so by 2030 we have
80 rafale block 3 and 4
120 tejas mark 1a
That's 200 aesa fighters with low maintenance western technology low rcs.
In 2028 revisit 5th gen threat
Ie plaaf progress on j20
Pak bull shit azm versus j31 purchase and decide on either
Su57 interim purchase 50 planes or f35 lightening purchase if USA is serious ally
Amca is too far away boys I can't see this in Indian power until 2040
We need interim solution by 2030

 

[Hiranyaksha]

Very prudent words by the panelist.

 

[Immanuel]

Very prudent words by the panelist.

Actually we shouldn't sign any fighter deal next till 83 LCA MK-1A is inked.

 

[Hiranyaksha]

Actually we shouldn't sign any fighter deal next till 83 LCA MK-1A is inked.

Panelist said words on similar line. He took it to the extent that there might be some conspiracy against atamnirbhar bharat as all the announcements comes very next day when our prime minister declares about self reliance in defence industry and even Chinese actions on border after the announcement seems to be on similar lines.

 

[The Maverick]

Actually we shouldn't sign any fighter deal next till 83 LCA MK-1A is inked.

Bull shot news 8 types of yet a new fighter again

Just order rafales on emergency basis ask France for emergency rafales x 12 planes now on top of 36 ordered

 

[shade]

MMRCA 2.0 is a waste of time, the smart move would be secure more Rafale ideally F-4 version with increased local assembly. There is no reason why 36-54 aircraft can't be ordered without wasting time.

Every other vendor/country would start crying then, along with the opposition, screaming SCAM!!! TOO EXPENSIVE!!! OBSOLETE!!! etc etc etc.
Baguette people will only listen for ToT and local assembly if 100 jets are ordered i think.